Go postal.
I was scolded at LHBS today when I told em I don't usually use a secondary
- Thread starter Chaddyb
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How about this - dry hop in your primary as soon as fermentation slows. Proper yeast pitch/health, temp control and the right hop addition can produce a amazing grain to glass dry hopped ale in < 3 weeks. Old Schoolers will just be getting into their secondary by then. Keg hopping, as previously mentioned, is awesome also. Doubt your LHBS guy would like any of that. Ok, Ok, I got it...use the BIAB line and tell him you are all electric also.
HickoryMike
Well-Known Member
Crazy things the LHBS has told me over spring break:
1. Don't place ANYTHING in your bucket, because it will cause microscopic scratches that will ruin your beer.
2. You need to put check valves on your gas-in lines or they will get full of beer and be ruined.
3. Don't buy the slightly bigger auto-siphon because it will slosh your beer around and oxidize it....he said it should only be used for wine.
When I hear this stuff I think "WTF!!!???" but I say "Oh really! Wow. That's something to think about." Me thinks its their way of upselling, and probably works well on newbs.
1. Don't place ANYTHING in your bucket, because it will cause microscopic scratches that will ruin your beer.
2. You need to put check valves on your gas-in lines or they will get full of beer and be ruined.
3. Don't buy the slightly bigger auto-siphon because it will slosh your beer around and oxidize it....he said it should only be used for wine.
When I hear this stuff I think "WTF!!!???" but I say "Oh really! Wow. That's something to think about." Me thinks its their way of upselling, and probably works well on newbs.
Holy cow, I must be nuts because I actually agree with him. Maybe not so much for #3, but it's certainly possible.
#1, yes anything that goes into the bucket (besides beer) can scratch it.
#2, yes, that happens. Not that the lines are ruined, but you could get backflow into the regulator and regulators are expensive!
There is no way backflow could ever ruin a regulator. I have an old regulator with no check valve, accidently hooked the gas up to a carbed kegs out post and proceeded to see beer pour out the regulator. I just took it apart, washed it and put it back together. There is nothing inside the regulator but springs and a rubber diaphram. Nothing beer can harm( unless you leave the beer inside the regulator)
OP
OP
Chaddyb
Well-Known Member
I wasnt even talking to this guy originally, I was looking at the glasses. My buddy who is getting his feet wet brewing was asking him about getting a carboy as I walked up. He asked if he needed one for primary or secondary. (hes using my equipment right now, and buying stuff for himself here and there) I told him I use a bucket for primary, and rarely secondary, unless Im aging, dry hopping, or adding fruit. He asked how long I ferment, and I told him 3-6 weeks depending. He asked me "how is that working out?" I told him its been working great. He then proceeded to tell me how my beer is going to taste like cardboard, and hes sure something doesnt taste right with my brews.
To me he seemed like the know it all type, he kept saying how buckets never seal air tight, and was talking about his dad brewing twenty some years ago.
To me he seemed like the know it all type, he kept saying how buckets never seal air tight, and was talking about his dad brewing twenty some years ago.
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The drawback to that is oxidation. Because the bucket will usually have a lot of headspace (space above the beerline), that means the beer is in contact with a lot of oxygen. In your primary fermentation in the bucket, that's not a worry, because all the CO2 being produced pushes the O2 out through the airlock and you get a nice bed of CO2 on top of the beer.
If you do secondary, its best to use a fermenter as close in size as possible to your batch, so that the exposure to O2 is limited.
Trust me, it can.
I learned that one the hard way.I now have check valves on all five lines.
Yes, you're insane, but that has nothing to do with the statements above. Agree on both points.
What, not one pantless brewing joke?!?! I gave everybody a nice fat pitch right over the plate and nothing. Are some things just too horrible to joke about?
What, not one pantless brewing joke?!?! I gave everybody a nice fat pitch right over the plate and nothing. Are some things just too horrible to joke about?
No, of course not. Well, except for the vision of you without pants. Where's the eyebleach?
No, of course not. Well, except for the vision of you without pants. Where's the eyebleach?
Its been well-established here that I have great legs - I say don't hide your assets.
That is true. I wasn't however, visualizing your legs.
(Now I need to go to confession, and I'm not even Catholic!).
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
No, of course not. Well, except for the vision of you without pants. Where's the eyebleach?
There's not enough PBW or StarSan to cleanse my eyes and mind after that visual...
Jhoss
Well-Known Member
on a stout I just bottled. Watching all the extraneous **** go down the tube into the botteling bucket and eventually to my bottles - I wished I would not have skipped the secondary. Time will tell (3 weeks at 70) if I will need to floss after each bottle. I think you can sense...I'm a bit skeptical.
Golddiggie
Well-Known Member
How long was it in primary? What yeast did you use? What was the recipe?
I have yet brew something that wasn't super clear right out of primary without using a brite tank. Of course I'm also making sure I don't grab crap when racking (from the bottom of the fermenter).
Jhoss
Well-Known Member
Morebeer.com's Irish Stout. 1 month on the primary.
I always use a secondary and I always use better bottles.
I have two 6.5 primaries and four 5.0 secondaries. I keg. One batch (Ball's two hearted clone, I believe), I did not secondary or cold crash and just kegged. The first beer was nothing but trub and yeast. Then my beer outpost got completely clogged. I had to disassemble a filled keg to clean it.
Since then, I've never skipped a secondary. My sanitation is good. Three transfers and every transfer results in more clarity.
My ultimate pipeline goal is four serving kegs, two carved kegs, and 4 secondaries cold-crashed and ready to be kegged.
I have two 6.5 primaries and four 5.0 secondaries. I keg. One batch (Ball's two hearted clone, I believe), I did not secondary or cold crash and just kegged. The first beer was nothing but trub and yeast. Then my beer outpost got completely clogged. I had to disassemble a filled keg to clean it.
Since then, I've never skipped a secondary. My sanitation is good. Three transfers and every transfer results in more clarity.
My ultimate pipeline goal is four serving kegs, two carved kegs, and 4 secondaries cold-crashed and ready to be kegged.
gratus fermentatio
Well-Known Member
There's not enough PBW or StarSan to cleanse my eyes and mind after that visual...
Yeah, what's he using to stir?
bja
Well-Known Member
Sounds to me like you need to learn how to use the siphon.
Calichusetts
Well-Known Member
I use a secondary almost everytime. I wouldn't call it unecessary...unless you want to apply that to many techniques of brewing. I hate the oxidation/infection excuse though, its ridiculous and as the above post points out...if you know how to siphon there is zero issue.
I dry-hop in a secondary and I don't get the tight trub/cake that people do in my primary...just spinning the carboy will stir it up. When I transfer to a secondary, I can do so quite freely and literally get almost all the beer out...even the trub that makes it in settles out into a tiny ring in my secondary...it looks a lot like the bottom of a bottle. That is why I do it...but to each his own.
I dry-hop in a secondary and I don't get the tight trub/cake that people do in my primary...just spinning the carboy will stir it up. When I transfer to a secondary, I can do so quite freely and literally get almost all the beer out...even the trub that makes it in settles out into a tiny ring in my secondary...it looks a lot like the bottom of a bottle. That is why I do it...but to each his own.
Jhoss
Well-Known Member
bja
Well-Known Member
Yeah...right
If you're sucking up the crap off of the bottom of the fermenter, you're obviously not doing it right.
@ Jhoss
Not calling your siphoning skills into question but I know on brews with a ton of trub or hop matter I have used a nylon stocking over the end of my siphon and it worked great.
That said, no one needs to try an convince you to not secondary, you tried it, you didn't like it, keep using the secondary if you want. Later down the line if you get lazy and don't want to rack (this was the reason I first started to not use secondary a long time ago) then you can try it again.
Not calling your siphoning skills into question but I know on brews with a ton of trub or hop matter I have used a nylon stocking over the end of my siphon and it worked great.
That said, no one needs to try an convince you to not secondary, you tried it, you didn't like it, keep using the secondary if you want. Later down the line if you get lazy and don't want to rack (this was the reason I first started to not use secondary a long time ago) then you can try it again.
Lennie
Well-Known Member
How tight your yeast cake is, is a function of both time and the yeast strain. WLP002 drops like a stone and you can shake the carboy and it will come up in one piece. Chico will settle much finer and be easier to stir up. That said, if you let it settle well and don't move the carboy as you rack, you can generally get the beer off without much yeast. And in any case, you'll be growing a little more yeast when you bottle condition. How thick the yeast cake is in the bottle, doesn't change the surface contact of the beer to the yeast. Its on the bottom no matter how thick.
I generally don't secondary, but I am aware of the need to avoid oxygen once fermentation is over and CO2 isn't super-saturating the beer. If I ferment in a bucket and can't bottle right away I'll rack to a carboy. These days I'm even doing pressurized fermentation and counter-pressure racking to serving kegs so my beer never sees air.
I generally don't secondary, but I am aware of the need to avoid oxygen once fermentation is over and CO2 isn't super-saturating the beer. If I ferment in a bucket and can't bottle right away I'll rack to a carboy. These days I'm even doing pressurized fermentation and counter-pressure racking to serving kegs so my beer never sees air.
Jhoss
Well-Known Member
Well done - a constructive idea - thank you. A ton of trub and hop matter describes my scenario pretty well. You also characterized my mood when I bottled....LAZY....and impatient. Too impatient to go sanitize, rack wait then bottle - went right to the bottle based on this re-curring theme "secondary is a waste" here. No big deal, I will perfect the "home-brew" pour with this stout coming out of the bottles. Who knows - maybe I won't mind the leftovers (sediment) and will bypass the secondary in the future? But I was kicking myself while draining into the Bottling Bucket this time....
I haven't used a secondary in a long time but I don't lager, and only ferment for 3 weeks. If I dry hop, I do it the last 2 weeks. I'm not saying my beers are perfect, but I like 'em and so do my buddies.
Even Charlie Papazian finds no problem with it with most recipes.
If you had lots of adjuncts or fruit, I would use a secondary.
Even Charlie Papazian finds no problem with it with most recipes.
If you had lots of adjuncts or fruit, I would use a secondary.
Stauffbier
Well-Known Member
Jhoss do you use Whirlfloc or Irish Moss? I use it, and it works great! I highly recommend it! I only primary for 3-4 weeks in buckets and my beer is super clear when I rack to the bottling bucket.. I also scale all of my AG recipies up to 6 gallons so I can leave the last 1/2 gallon of wort that is full of trub in the kettle, thus only transfering very clean wort into the fermentor. It costs any extra buck or two in grain/hops but it's worth it to me.
Jhoss
Well-Known Member
I just didnt see much difference comparing this batch with the previous. Time will tell if my impression of excess junk in the bottle ring true. There was foam (krauzen) residue floating on top that I tried to avoid, and did leave quite a bit of beer in the bucket to avoid getting too close to bottom.
Time will tell - thanks all.
Time will tell - thanks all.
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