I think my beer turned into vinegar. How do I know for sure

[Cro Magnon]

i use a HDPE 15 gallon one....i use it for my sparge water, so in a round about way, i've realized i'm pastuerizing it in the process.....never a sour batch....it does taste for lack of a better descriptor, "dusty"....but never sour!

That's interesting....how hot is the sparge water? I know PET can't handle very hot...Boiling water will start to melt it instantly. HDPE can take higher temperatures for sure, I don't know how high that threshold goes. I'd be interested to know what the minimum temp below boiling, would be enough to sanitize equipment enough to warrant not having to use sanitizer thereafter. But interesting, good to know!

 

[bracconiere]

That's interesting....how hot is the sparge water? I know PET can't handle very hot...Boiling water will start to melt it instantly. HDPE can take higher temperatures for sure, I don't know how high that threshold goes. I'd be interested to know what the minimum temp below boiling, would be enough to sanitize equipment enough to warrant not having to use sanitizer thereafter. But interesting, good to know!

i usually heat my sparge water to 180-190f, put in my fermenter throw the lid on, and let it sit till it cools to 170f....or so...

 

[seanjwalker1]

Sounds like Acetaldehyde and Lacto to me. Let's face it, no matter how diligent we are with our sanitation, sooner or later it happens to all of us. In 16 years I've had 3 batches go sour. All 3 soured batches happened using plastic buckets and 6 years ago I switched to all stainless steel. So I probably had micro scratches in my plastic. Or, maybe I just had a micro lapse in my sanition, like forgetting to resanitize a spoon or something? But it's not a question of if but when. Some folks are quite happy to chalk it up as a sour. Not Me! My last soured batch about 6 years ago was a Aventinus clone that made me want to puke. I was gonna toss the whole batch. Decided first to take a few bottles to my LHBS to get some advise on what went wrong. They pleaded with me to not dump it and let it sit a few more months as it would be, to them, a wonderful sour in the making..... I gave it to them with my blessings! What to them was a great sour was to me a foul tasting total waste of time money and effort. So to each his own. Let someone else , who you know is not sour beers , taste it . They might love it. Personally I would chalk it up to an enevitable 1st incident of lost cause batch. It happens. My 2 cents.

 

[seanjwalker1]

Space water is too hot for 1 thing. 170° no hotter.

 

[seanjwalker1]

Sparge water...dang autocorrect.

 

[bracconiere]

Decided first to take a few bottles to my LHBS to get some advise on what went wrong. They pleaded with me to not dump it and let it

LOL, my sour batches, i embarrassingly will admit i started liking when the buzz started hitting me!

 

[bracconiere]

Space water is too hot for 1 thing. 170° no hotter.

Sparge water...dang autocorrect.

i just learned, as long as there's enough sugar, and the ph is low enough....i can boil the mash, got me to 95% effec.....

 

[Cro Magnon]

Sounds like Acetaldehyde and Lacto to me. Let's face it, no matter how diligent we are with our sanitation, sooner or later it happens to all of us. In 16 years I've had 3 batches go sour. All 3 soured batches happened using plastic buckets and 6 years ago I switched to all stainless steel. So I probably had micro scratches in my plastic. Or, maybe I just had a micro lapse in my sanition, like forgetting to resanitize a spoon or something? But it's not a question of if but when. Some folks are quite happy to chalk it up as a sour. Not Me! My last soured batch about 6 years ago was a Aventinus clone that made me want to puke. I was gonna toss the whole batch. Decided first to take a few bottles to my LHBS to get some advise on what went wrong. They pleaded with me to not dump it and let it sit a few more months as it would be, to them, a wonderful sour in the making..... I gave it to them with my blessings! What to them was a great sour was to me a foul tasting total waste of time money and effort. So to each his own. Let someone else , who you know is not sour beers , taste it . They might love it. Personally I would chalk it up to an enevitable 1st incident of lost cause batch. It happens. My 2 cents.

Thank you Sean, for sharing your experience! Acetaldehyde and lacto....hmmm. I can't say I'll ever be able to know how it got in but I'll have to cut out some of the more risky steps I described earlier. And yeah about the sours....I'm gonna keep a few bottles as an experiment and see what happens in a few months....As it tastes right now ( not that it tastes ANYTHING like a finely brewed and fermented sour) it doesn't appeal to me so I'll have to dump most of it. May be my palate is unrefined or maybe sours will never be my thing. But hey I haven't really had a good one. Anyway, 3 soured batches in 16 years sounds like an insanely good success rate. This was only my 4th batch which is why I'm pretty upset Anyway, it's all good and part of the learning process. As you say, inevitable incident. Thanks again for sharing!

 

[Cro Magnon]

I was wondering if reused PET bottles which I use for bottling could be a problem as well. Thing is they are never scrubbed with anything abrasive so they can't really develop scratches. But even aside from that, I don't know if there are any number of other factors that can render PET bottles less desirable over time for bottling.

 

[bracconiere]

lol, PETE's Wicked Brew! you use plastic bottles for bottling? i do too, but from a keg, and only for an evening.....

 

[Cro Magnon]

lol, PETE's Wicked Brew! you use plastic bottles for bottling?

Yup Well for a few reasons. Liquor stores have been close during the lockdown so I can't source empty bottles. Furthermore can't afford a capper right now. Third, PET actually tolerates close to 3x more vols of CO2 than glass bottles so if I have an incomplete fermentation, I don't have to worry about bottle bombs. All this is because I make really small batches so I don't take hydrometer readings for the FG. How do you feel about bottling in PET?

 

[bracconiere]

How do you feel about bottling in PET?

i got sick of buying bottle caps for glass, so when i went to my buddy's house for a night of drinking....i'd counter pressure fill a few 1 liter soda bottles for the night......never tried to naturally carb in them or have them last more then the night....but i loved the screw top, tops.....

 

[seanjwalker1]

I was wondering if reused PET bottles which I use for bottling could be a problem as well. Thing is they are never scrubbed with anything abrasive so they can't really develop scratches. But even aside from that, I don't know if there are any number of other factors that can render PET bottles less desirable over time for bottling.

I used PET bottles for years and glass flippy bottles. Sure if the bottles are not sanitized right they could lead to ruined beer. But I never had a beer go sour AFTER bottling...it always occurred in the plastic fermenter buckets. No sour batches since switching to stainless steel fermenter....yet. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later. We are only human after all! I always double sanitized my bottles. I would make a 2 gallon Clorox solution according to the label instructions, dunk all the bottles and caps, completely rinse several times until no more smell of chlorine, then dunk in starsan solution and drip dry. I have since been blessed with a 2 tap kegerator and kegs (last Xmas) so don't use bottles too often any more but when I do I follow those sanitizing steps. Time consuming but it worked for me. Everyone has their own way of doing things.

 

[seanjwalker1]

For me low carbonation beers went into glass flippys(bombers), high carbonation went into PET bottles. Never had a burst bottle. Sanitized 12, 16, 22 oz and 2 litre soda bottles work great.

 

[Cro Magnon]

I used PET bottles for years and glass flippy bottles. Sure if the bottles are not sanitized right they could lead to ruined beer. But I never had a beer go sour AFTER bottling...it always occurred in the plastic fermenter buckets. No sour batches since switching to stainless steel fermenter....yet. I'm sure it will happen sooner or later. We are only human after all! I always double sanitized my bottles. I would make a 2 gallon Clorox solution according to the label instructions, dunk all the bottles and caps, completely rinse several times until no more smell of chlorine, then dunk in starsan solution and drip dry. I have since been blessed with a 2 tap kegerator and kegs (last Xmas) so don't use bottles too often any more but when I do I follow those sanitizing steps. Time consuming but it worked for me. Everyone has their own way of doing things.

Great to know there are other PET bottlers out there....or at least that it's not a complete taboo! This batch as well...whatever souring happened, happened in the fermenter and not in the bottles. I'm pretty thorough with sanitizing bottles..unfortunately no StarSan where I am but I use Iodophor. In fact before Iodophor was available I just used betadine for my first few batches and everything was absolutely fine. Thanks for all the tips about sanitizing..hopefully I find a kegerator under the X mas tree someday!

 

[IslandLizard]

Nice...I've been told to swirl up the yeast cake with the last bit of beer when saving the yeast cake. Why do we do this? Why not try to pour out as much of the remaining beer and save as much raw yeast cake as possible?

You can't pour out a compacted yeast cake by itself, it's a thick sludge. You need to leave enough beer behind so you can swirl up the compacted yeast cake. The amount of beer needed to reconstitute the yeast cake into a pourable slurry varies with the amount of yeast/trub, and compaction. You'll get a feel for it.

The beer that forms on top, after the poured out slurry settles out again, then in turn protects the yeast.

 

[Cro Magnon]

i got sick of buying bottle caps for glass, so when i went to my buddy's house for a night of drinking....i'd counter pressure fill a few 1 liter soda bottles for the night......never tried to naturally carb in them or have them last more then the night....but i loved the screw top, tops.....

That's cool! I love the screw tops as well..really convenient and they actually keep the beer good for the time it takes you to drink half the bottle and the pour out the other half..

 

[Cro Magnon]

You can't pour out a compacted yeast cake by itself, it's a thick sludge. You need to leave enough beer behind so you can swirl up the compacted yeast cake. The amount of beer needed to reconstitute the yeast cake into a pourable slurry varies with the amount of yeast/trub, and compaction. You'll get a feel for it.

The beer that forms on top, after the poured out slurry settles out again, then in turn protects the yeast.

Thanks, finally makes sense to me now Good thing I didn't try to pour out a compacted yeast um.... brick. Gotta try this with my next batch. Yeast is working out to be the most expensive homebrew ingredient.

 

[IslandLizard]

Thanks, finally makes sense to me now Good thing I didn't try to pour out a compacted yeast um.... brick. Gotta try this with my next batch. Yeast is working out to be the most expensive homebrew ingredient.

As long as you're able to keep your yeast well sanitary, she keeps on giving. Tripling to quintupling the original (viable) cell count with each round. 6-12 re-pitches of saved out yeast is not unusual. But she will change over time, optimizing herself to your brewery conditions. They also tend to become less flocculant after a few times.

Use a yeast calculator to estimate needed cell count and slurry volume to pitch.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
Mr. Malty

Mr. Malty has a "pitch from slurry" tab that comes in very handy for repitching and making starters from saved out slurries.

 

[Cro Magnon]

As long as you're able to keep your yeast well sanitary, she keeps on giving. Tripling to quintupling the original (viable) cell count with each round. 6-12 re-pitches of saved out yeast is not unusual. But she will change over time, optimizing herself to your brewery conditions. They also tend to become less flocculant after a few times.

Use a yeast calculator to estimate needed cell count and slurry volume to pitch.
BrewUnited's Yeast Calculator
Mr. Malty

Mr. Malty has a "pitch from slurry" tab that comes in very handy for repitching and making starters from saved out slurries.

Wow...there actually is a calculator to calculate slurry volume. Brilliant. Thanks!

 

[seanjwalker1]

You can sanitize your hands only to a certain degree, so skin contact with chilled wort or beer should be avoided unless you pasteurize (the wort) again, afterward. Maybe wear gloves when squeezing?

On the other hand, there's really no need to strain/filter the (chilled) wort that tightly (finely). Just by letting the chilled wort sit in the (covered) pot for 30 minutes, most trub will have precipitated. Pour or siphon the clear wort on top carefully into your fermenter, leaving the trub (with some wort) behind. Even some trub in your fermenter won't harm your beer. It may be even helpful, and it all precipitates out after fermentation has finished, while it conditions, before packaging (bottling/kegging). Cold crashing generally speeds up precipitation.

That leftover trubby wort can be strained or refined but if touched by skin or other non-sanitary devices, should be re-pasteurized before adding to your batch in the fermenter. I often do that under the paradigm: "No wort left behind!"
From a 5 gallon batch I can reclaim about 2-3 quarts from the trub by straining through tight mesh nylon "hop bags." The reclaimed wort gets then re-pasteurized at 150-160F for 20' or simply reboiled. It can then be added to the main batch (if volume is lowish), fermented on the side in it's own (small) fermenter, used to make syrups, or (yeast) starter wort.

When I used to do BIAB, I would place the bag in the giant colander, and use the wort spoon to push on it to get a little extra out. DON'T USE YOUR HANDS unless your going to do a vigorous boil after that....naw, I wouldn't use my hands anyway!

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

What do you mean 'at an undesirable time?' Well for one the ice melts pretty quick after I pour the wort over it, and it cools to just about 33C by the time I'm done. Secondly I thought at this stage since we want to oygenate the wort anyway, this is fine. Are you saying that oxygen gets trapped in some way and released at a later time?

Thanks for the tip about paint strainer bags (I'll have to look it up, I don't know what they are). When you say wort is not at the ideal temp for introducing oxygen....what is the ideal temp?

Wort best temp to introduce oxygen, I'm sure others at HBT can provide better recommendations, but I use 72F.

Please realize pouring hot wort over ice introduces oxygen before the wort is cooled to the proper temp for introducing oxygen to the wort. Oxygen at the wrong time leads to cardboard, wet bag taste. This doesn't only happen to homebrewers. We visited a local brewery when they first opened. Guess what? Every beer their served had the oxidization problem.

 

[VikeMan]

Introducing O2 during chilling is not going to cause oxidation problems, unless there's a long time until pitching yeast.

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Sounds like Acetaldehyde and Lacto to me. Let's face it, no matter how diligent we are with our sanitation, sooner or later it happens to all of us. In 16 years I've had 3 batches go sour. All 3 soured batches happened using plastic buckets and 6 years ago I switched to all stainless steel. So I probably had micro scratches in my plastic. Or, maybe I just had a micro lapse in my sanition, like forgetting to resanitize a spoon or something? But it's not a question of if but when. Some folks are quite happy to chalk it up as a sour. Not Me! My last soured batch about 6 years ago was a Aventinus clone that made me want to puke. I was gonna toss the whole batch. Decided first to take a few bottles to my LHBS to get some advise on what went wrong. They pleaded with me to not dump it and let it sit a few more months as it would be, to them, a wonderful sour in the making..... I gave it to them with my blessings! What to them was a great sour was to me a foul tasting total waste of time money and effort. So to each his own. Let someone else , who you know is not sour beers , taste it . They might love it. Personally I would chalk it up to an enevitable 1st incident of lost cause batch. It happens. My 2 cents.

If acetaldehyde, you'd know as this gives the fresh cut green apples fault. Think of the Jolly Rancher green apple candy.

"Make sure fermentation is vigorous using healthy yeast. Allow full attenuation. Leave beer on yeast longer. Oxygenate wort fully. Try another yeast strain. Make sure sufficient yeast nutrients are available. Let beer age longer."

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Introducing O2 during chilling is not going to cause oxidation problems, unless there's a long time until pitching yeast.

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Above a certain temp, introducing oxygen, aka hot side aeration, will cause stale beer.

 

[VikeMan]

Wrong, wrong, wrong. Above a certain temp, introducing oxygen, aka hot side aeration, will cause stale beer.

How long do you think O2 is making contact with the hot wort as it goes through the ice, before the wort is chilled?

 

[Cro Magnon]

Hahaha... easy lads....this isn't youtube! I appreciate all your advice very much. Honestly each tip is something I didn't know before. Although now I have no clue whether oxygenating my wort by pouring/not pouring over ice at ideal/not ideal temperature is right/wrong

@toboR That's a very interesting fact about introducing oxygen above ideal temperatures causing cardboard flavours. Would love to know the science behind this. This was the first batch I had done used this technique with...but then I did an IPA right after with the same technique and it's come out tasting pretty good. I'm guessing the interplay between all these factors is too complex for us to understand when using less than scientific methods.

@VikeMan You mentioned that oygenating during chilling is not a problem unless there is a long time before pitching yeast. What about when brewers do overnight cooling? Wouldn't this be a long time? Was thinking about attempting this because the whole ice bath thing really doesn't bring it down enough. So how do I combat the oxygenation with long cooling time before pitching?

 

[Tobor_8thMan]

Hahaha... easy lads....this isn't youtube! I appreciate all your advice very much. Honestly each tip is something I didn't know before. Although now I have no clue whether oxygenating my wort by pouring/not pouring over ice at ideal/not ideal temperature is right/wrong

@toboR That's a very interesting fact about introducing oxygen above ideal temperatures causing cardboard flavours. Would love to know the science behind this. This was the first batch I had done used this technique with...but then I did an IPA right after with the same technique and it's come out tasting pretty good. I'm guessing the interplay between all these factors is too complex for us to understand when using less than scientific methods.

@VikeMan You mentioned that oygenating during chilling is not a problem unless there is a long time before pitching yeast. What about when brewers do overnight cooling? Wouldn't this be a long time? Was thinking about attempting this because the whole ice bath thing really doesn't bring it down enough. So how do I combat the oxygenation with long cooling time before pitching?

Cro magnon,
Introducing oxygen into the wort before the temp is ideal, say 72F or below, will cause stale issues in the future. Sometimes noticeable very soon. Pouring hot wort over ice doesn't immediately lower the temp of the wort to 72F (or less). Oxygen is introduced. Think of pouring a soda in a glass of ice. The ridges on the ice allow CO2 to come out of the soda solution. In a similar matter oxygen is being introduced. Will yeast clean up the hot side oxygen in the wort? No, as the damage is done.

Cooling overnight? Meaning souring? Or, fermentating from yeast in the air?

Below 72F, splash all you want. Force O2 into the wort.

Please realize I've been homebrewing since 1995. I've made these mistakes. Get tired after a long day of brewing, wort is at 85F or 95F and oxygen is introduced. Is beer drinkable? Yes, for a while, but then it quickly goes bad.

 

[VikeMan]

Why, so you can continue posting wrong, misleading, incorrect items?

Wow. Did you go back and read the exchange from Friday like I suggested? If there's even one incorrect thing I said in that exchange, please cite it and provide evidence to the contrary. Why do you suppose @Qhrumphf said you were off in a corner talking to yourself?

 

[VikeMan]

@VikeMan You mentioned that oygenating during chilling is not a problem unless there is a long time before pitching yeast. What about when brewers do overnight cooling? Wouldn't this be a long time? Was thinking about attempting this because the whole ice bath thing really doesn't bring it down enough. So how do I combat the oxygenation with long cooling time before pitching?

I wouldn't leave an oxygenated wort overnight. Then you really would have issues.