I think I want to give wine a shot...

[Walker]

As for the hydrometer thing... I have some slight disdain for them. I understand their usefullness and can see their value for AG beer brewers, but for me and my extract beer brewing, a hydrometer just serves as a source of worry.

cases in point, just from recent postings:
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7592
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=7591

 

[Lounge Lizard]

I got the kit today, but was busy with a bunch of stuff and never got a chance to read the instructions that came with the kit. Seems easy enough, so I'm not worried.

Somehow I let the "new" guy at the LHBS to talk me into buying a 6 gallon carboy, though. He's the only guy that works there that actually acts like a salesman and pushes the merchandise on you. He got me by reminding me that the kit is guaranteed, but the instructions call specifically for a 6 gallon carboy. All of mine are 6.6 or 5 gallon.


-walker

Here is my batch after having been racked into a 6 gallon secondary:

I usually keep it covered. It's been in there almost six days. I suppose I'll have to remove a half gallon or so temporarily while I'm doing the degassing, etc. Don't it look purty?

 

[Walker]

looks good, LL.

I have not gotten mine started for two reasons.

(1) SWMBO wants to be 100% involved in the batch of wine, but she fell asleep last night while I was cleaning my 5gal and racking over my IPA.

(2) the instructions say that all equipment needs to be sanitized with potassium metabisulfite.

Question:

How important is it that I sanitize specifically with the metabisulfite powder? I don't have any extra to clean with (the kit comes with one small packet, but I am instructed to add this whole packet to the juice before pitching yeast).

Can I use Iodophor (what I use for beer brewing) with the wine gear with no issues?

-walker

 

[Walker]

correction... I am not supposed to add the potassium metabisulfite prior to pitching the yeast (that's when you add the bentonite). PM gets added after fermentation is done to kill yeast.

But.. my question remains; do I absolutely need to sanitize with PM or is Iodophor perfectly acceptable?

here are the instructions that came with the kit:
http://www.winexpert.com/answerbox/files/Estate_Eng.pdf

-walker

 

[Lounge Lizard]

Walker,

After asking a similar question over at winepress.us, I went ahead and used One Step on everything, like I do with my beer. Most hard core wine makers, from what I can gather, use potassium metabisulfite, Star San, and Iodophor (in order of preference). There is no magic in using potassium metabisulfite for sanitizing, unless you need to get rid of any residual bleach from your equipment. The main thing is that you sanitize well and use a fresh batch of whatever sanitizer you choose.

 

[Walker]

Walker,

After asking a similar question over at winepress.us, I went ahead and used One Step on everything, like I do with my beer. Most hard core wine makers, from what I can gather, use potassium metabisulfite, Star San, and Iodophor (in order of preference). There is no magic in using potassium metabisulfite for sanitizing, unless you need to get rid of any residual bleach from your equipment. The main thing is that you sanitize well and use a fresh batch of whatever sanitizer you choose.

thanks again, LL.

One question for you... in the directions (step 4) they suggest adding additional PM if you plan to age the wine longer than 6 months.

I find this strange because;
(a) they say the kit includes everything you need
(b) they say you should add more (not supplied with the kit) sulfites for aging longer than 6 months
(c) they suggest waiting at LEAST six months to drink the wine

I hardly call this kit "complete" given facts (b) and (c). It seems they should have added MORE PM to the kit.

Anyway, are you planning to add the additional potassium metabisulfite to your batch?

-walker

 

[Lounge Lizard]

One question for you... in the directions (step 4) they suggest adding additional PM if you plan to age the wine longer than 6 months.

Anyway, are you planning to add the additional potassium metabisulfite to your batch?

-walker

You make a good point. The kit really can't be called complete. I suppose they are trying to make the adding of additional sulfite voluntary (for legal reasons), since some people are allergic to it. Erring on the side of caution and all of that.

Yes, I will add the extra 1/4 tsp. It's not much and I'll probably end up keeping some bottles for 5+ years or longer. You never know...

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

Actually sounds like a beer kit that indicates you should add sugar to the boil, which really means you should ditch the instructions and buy some additional extract not included in the kit.

 

[Caplan]

Welcome to wine kit instruction fun Walker!
I think you are worrying before you start!
Did the 'Everything you need' kit include bottles/corks? No.
Have you picked up the corker and corks yet? Probably not either.
RELAX! Just breathe
Sterilize your kit as you always do (with Iodophor if you have it to hand) when you start and follow the kit through. Sterilize the bottles (and hey - maybe even the corks) how you like.
You don't need Potassium/Sodium metabisulfite to help store a wine - The yeast should be pretty much dead in the alcohol (It's the real preservative! - that was the whole point in the past!)

 

[Walker]

Welcome to wine kit instruction fun Walker!
I think you are worrying before you start!

Not worrying, just double-checking.

Did the 'Everything you need' kit include bottles/corks? No.

No, it did not. But, it says I have everything needed to MAKE the wine, not bottle it. Since it instructs you to add the PM to MAKE the wine, I would have expected it to be included.

Have you picked up the corker and corks yet? Probably not either.

Actually, I did pick the corks and corker up. #9 corks since I plan to age it for a longish period of time, and one of the two 'middle-range' corkers. Not the crappy little cylinder, not the $60 standing floor corker. The corker I got is kind of similar to my beer bottle capper (twin lever).

RELAX! Just breathe

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.... I AM RELAXED, MAN! F*CKING-A!

SWMBO and I got everything rolling last night. 4.5 gallons of juice, 1.5 gallons of bottled water, bentonite, oak chips/powder, and the sachet of yeast are all in the fermenter now. My SG (yes, I got the hydrometer and checked the gravity) was about 1.097@72°F (strangely, the hydrometer I have is calibrated at 68°F, so I didn't really need to correct it for the 4° temp difference.)

Hopefully she'll be bubbling away tonight or tomorrow morning.

I will say one thing, the juice tasted pretty good. It reminded me very much of grape juice I might buy at the grocery for regular drinking, but had the flavor turned up a notch in intensity and had a dry tannin finish to it.

I'm not much of a wine drinker, but I'm pretty excited about this whole thing.

The best part, perhaps, is watching my wife obsess about this like I do with my beer. She's already gone out to the brew-fridge to check on the wine 3 times since we pitched the yeast. This will certainly test her patience.... waiting 6 weeks for ale is one thing, but waiting 6 MONTHS for wine is another.

-walker

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

This will certainly test her patience.... waiting 6 weeks for ale is one thing, but waiting 6 MONTHS for wine is another.

Maybe I should mention that little magnetic paperweight looking gizmo they've got that they claim ages wine the equivalent of months in just a few days...

 

[Walker]

Actually sounds like a beer kit that indicates you should add sugar to the boil, which really means you should ditch the instructions and buy some additional extract not included in the kit.

The instructions are actually pretty good, to be honest. I was pleased about that. I only had two complaints:

(1) they tell you when to add the contents of the various packets of additives that come with the kit, but they don't tell you WHY you are adding them. I had to look that up on the web. I guess the "WHY" isn't as important for the instructions as the "HOW" and "WHEN", but I like to know the reasons behind doing things.

(2) they stress the importance of taking gravity readings to know when to rack and add things to the wine, but the INITIAL gravity reading has a lot of variation on it. The instructions are general instructions for all of this manufacturer's kits, and they say "The gravity should be between 1.080 and 1.100, depending on the style of your wine". That's a pretty wide range there, if you ask me!

All in all, I found the process last night to be very unsatisfying; Mix this with that, add some water, check temp and gravity, pitch yeast. I felt like I was cheating compared to making beer.

Granted, I brew beer with extract and not all grain, but I do at least get to select my grain(s), hops, and yeast and then cook it all up. I guess I felt like I had no real input on the wine at all.

But... I will try to at least come away with this with some basic knowledge of wine-making and the additives and steps needed to do it. The only thing more I could do would be to press fruit juice (the AG equivalent of vinting?) or select&mix fruit juices together (kind of where I am with my brewing).

-walker

 

[Baron von BeeGee]

All in all, I found the process last night to be very unsatisfying; Mix this with that, add some water, check temp and gravity, pitch yeast. I felt like I was cheating compared to making beer.

That was kind of what it seemed like to me, as well, reading about the process, though I'm sure there are ways to get just as involved as brewing beer. I'm not a big wine drinker, however, so I don't think I'll get sucked into this one which would no doubt lead to me planting grapevines in the back yard.

 

[Walker]

I don't think I'll get sucked into this one which would no doubt lead to me planting grapevines in the back yard.

No problem! I'll plant the grapes right next to the hops!

-walker

 

[Caplan]

FOR CHRIST'S SAKE.... I AM RELAXED, MAN! F*CKING-A!

Calm and collected.... nice approach....

SWMBO and I got everything rolling last night. 4.5 gallons of juice, 1.5 gallons of bottled water, bentonite, oak chips/powder, and the sachet of yeast are all in the fermenter now. My SG (yes, I got the hydrometer and checked the gravity) was about 1.097@72°F (strangely, the hydrometer I have is calibrated at 68°F, so I didn't really need to correct it for the 4° temp difference.)

Hopefully she'll be bubbling away tonight or tomorrow morning.

I will say one thing, the juice tasted pretty good. It reminded me very much of grape juice I might buy at the grocery for regular drinking, but had the flavor turned up a notch in intensity and had a dry tannin finish to it.

I'm not much of a wine drinker, but I'm pretty excited about this whole thing.

The best part, perhaps, is watching my wife obsess about this like I do with my beer. She's already gone out to the brew-fridge to check on the wine 3 times since we pitched the yeast. This will certainly test her patience.... waiting 6 weeks for ale is one thing, but waiting 6 MONTHS for wine is another.

-walker

Perfect start! Grape varieties for general juice and wine making are not too far apart - the difference is a big subject though! As far as the SWMBO is concerned she sounds great. Mrs.Walker - I salute you!
Get a 'special ale' she loves on Primary NOW too - Just keep her hands off drinking the wine kit until August!

 

[Walker]

Get a 'special ale' she loves on Primary NOW too - Just keep her hands off drinking the wine kit until August!

My IPA is brewed specifically for SWMBO. I drink my fair share of it, but that recipe is tailored for her tastes. I racked a new batch of it into the secondary two nights ago.

-walker

 

[Walker]

the merlot is bubbling. It's sharing the brew-fridge with my IPA, so I have adjusted the temp up from 65°F to about 69°F (higher end of the range for my ale, but middle range for the wine).

I originally had not adjusted the temp, but the wine was having a tough time getting started. I upped it when I got home yesterday and it seems to have accelerated things a bit.

SWMBO has checked in on the fermenter no less than 12 times since pitching yeast on Monday night. That's good, because I can have her deliver reports about the clarity of the IPA and save myself the daily trip to the garage to peek in the fridge.

-walker

 

[Lounge Lizard]

Walker,

How is the wine doing in the 6.5 gallon carboy? Is the inside of your fridge the color purple?

Yeah, I suppose making kit wine can be a little less fulfilling. You might feel differently after you taste yours. Or you can think of it like following a gourmet recipe, and producing something really special to put on your dinner table.


Anyway, there is a guy over at Winepress in the Kit section, just raving about his Stag's Leap Merlot. It has only been in the bottle something like two weeks, IIRC....

 

[Walker]

she's coming along. it took about 30 hours for the fermentation to kick in. I got paranoid that I might have done something wrong, but then I remembered to have a homebrew, and it was all good.

It only developed a VERY thin 'kraeusen' (is it called this with wine? It was so insignificant, it might not even have a name in vinting), and that broke down pretty quickly. So, the 6.5 gallon carboy is PLENTY big enough for it.

When I open the door to the garage (where my brewfridge is), I can smell a hint of wine, which is likely due to SWMBO checking on it a lot and opening the fridge door.

When I open the door to the FRIDGE, I am bowled over by the aroma of wine. It smells fantastic, to be honest. I'm jazzed about drinking it eventually. SWMBO acts like a kid when she's looking at it.

-walker

 

[Lounge Lizard]

Where's that crazy Brit Caplan at when you need him?? Probably off bowing to the Queen or something.... lol

The reason I ask, is because I have no idea what the foam is called. Caplan??

My batch took 24 hours or so to start fermenting. Yours is fine.

I'm past my initial ten day secondary period, where you are supposed to check the gravity and start degassing, etc. I guess it can hold until Sunday when I'm off from work. I read where you really want to do a good job on the degassing. There is not even a consensus among kit winemakers whether something called "kit taste" even exists, but some say that not degassing well enough can cause a grapey (fruity) nose to kit wines. Something about the juice being pasteurized.

I'm not going to lose much sleep worrying about some phantom bugaboo, but I do want to get rid of as much of the gas as possible. I've read one of the easiest, most effective and less physical methods, is to use an orange carboy cap and vacuum device, that is designed to make open bottles of wine last longer. Oh, yeah, a Vacuvin or something. I bet all big liquor stores sell them...

Caplan??

 

[Walker]

My batch took 24 hours or so to start fermenting. Yours is fine.

Did yours make an audible hissssssss? That part is cool. Since there is no foam to catch escaping bubbles, it just hisses out, and I can hear it when I open the fridge door. Sweeeeeet.

I've read one of the easiest, most effective and less physical methods, is to use an orange carboy cap and vacuum device, that is designed to make open bottles of wine last longer. Oh, yeah, a Vacuvin or something. I bet all big liquor stores sell them...

We've got a couple of those (assuming I understand what you are talking about). I can't readily see how I'd use it, so maybe we are not thinking of the same thing.

Got a link?

 

[Lounge Lizard]

From here:

http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=1011&st=30


"Degassing comes next. There are several ways to do this. One is with a drill powered attachment called a Fizz-ex. Be gentle with this device to start. It will cause substantial foaming. (Sorry, no pic) Another way is to use the vaccu-vin wine saver. By capping the carboy and using the rubber cork, a vaccuum can be drawn in the carboy. The reduction of pressure is a gentler way to degas the wine.

If you warm the wine to room temperature or higher, the wine will give off CO2 more easily."

Attached thumbnail(s)


It's just a pump kinda vacuum gizmo. I'm gonna see if I can find one. You don't want much air space in the carboy when you do this. I have heard that a lot of vacuum in one with a lot of space can shatter the glass. That's probably with using a stronger pump, though...


And a thread about degassing:


http://www.winepress.us/forums/index.php?showtopic=10933


I suppose it wouldn't be a bad idea to stir the must a good bit, use the VacuVin.... and repeat until it is where it needs to be. From reading the above thread, some people do it over the course of a few days.

Is yours in the secondary yet?

PS: I didn't hear any hissing, but it was in a plastic pail with a lid and air lock. Maybe that's why not...

 

[Caplan]

The reason I ask, is because I have no idea what the foam is called

Sorry - I've been busy!
By the way Condoleezza Rice has been in the UK this last few days - Lancashire and Merseyside. She didn't look me up for a few glasses of vin on her trip. I guess she knows i never rated the Beatles......

It doesn't have a name as such in English that fully describes it that I know. The closest is a 'Cap' i guess - the skins, stalks, flesh etc that get pushed to the top of the fermenter in a full grape primary - but that doesn't explain the 'foam' that pushed it there. There must be a French term for it but my gallic vocab is 'merde'!

 

[Lounge Lizard]

Caplan... there you are!

Thought maybe Condi Rice and Jack Straw, took you along with them as a chaperoneon on their surprise visit to Baghdad ... lol

I didn't think I had seen a name for the foam when fermenting wine. Thanks for the info.

I do have another question for you. How important is this degassing business? I think a person could spend a lifetime trying to degas one of these kits. I bought wine whip for my drill. Used it for a while, being careful not to create a vortex that would suck oxygen in. And I have been using a wine saver vacuum tool connected to an orange carboy cap ever since, and I don't think I will ever get all of the CO2 out.

I read somewhere to take a sample and fill a beer bottle about half way full, and then to shake it. Supposedly, if you don't here a pop when you remove your thumb, and you have less than a half inch of foam, you are good to go.

What say ye o keeper of the virginity?

 

[Walker]

Another way is to use the vaccu-vin wine saver. By capping the carboy and using the rubber cork, a vaccuum can be drawn in the carboy. The reduction of pressure is a gentler way to degas the wine.

Cool. Mine look a little different, but same general principle. They came with a vacuum 'tupperware' set I bought several years ago. IN fact, I think the wine stoppers are the only things LEFT from that tupperware set.

Is yours in the secondary yet?

Not yet. It's still bubbling away like crazy. Active fermentation has only been going on for about 5 days at this point, so I figure it has another 3 to 5 days left.

-walker

 

[Sasquatch]

My local wine guru said to leave wine in secondary for a full month before you kill/stabilize and clear it. I have no results yet, but he's won a bunch of homemade wine competitions, so I tend to listen to him.

Wine is so much easier than beer... it is basically self-sanitizing, and the more you beat it up, the better it seems to come out.

 

[Caplan]

Thought maybe Condi Rice and Jack Straw, took you along with them as a chaperoneon on their surprise visit to Baghdad ... lol

No thanks! It wasn't the actual road trip that put me off - just was the company!

Degassing is very important. It depends on your processes of trying to extract the CO2 i guess. Drill attachments seem extreme to me! I'm in agreement with Sasquatch's Guru (his Dad!) - Don't try and 'rush' the primary ferment and secondary racking - let a wine ferment out in primary, when it slows down then rack it off the lees into secondary under airlock with campden added to clear for a few more weeks or so - it will throw more sediment as the yeast dies with the higher alcohol levels and campden. i rack again, degas and add more campden and finings - again under airlock to allow CO2 escape. At this point it usually pretty clear to be racked again with campden and aged in a carboy for a few months. My point is with using airlocks and allowing the CO2 out in the secondary and tertiary it helps to clear a wine without the need to 'over worry' about it

 

[Walker]

I sampled my wine last night. It's at about 11% abv right now, but it still has to drop another 16 points before it's done fermenting (for a final abv of 13%), so it was still a little sweet. It's definately tasking like wine now.

woohoo!

 

[RichBrewer]

I sampled my wine last night. It's at about 11% abv right now, but it still has to drop another 16 points before it's done fermenting (for a final abv of 13%), so it was still a little sweet. It's definately tasking like wine now.

woohoo!

Someone is using a hydrometer.

 

[Walker]

Someone is using a hydrometer.

yes, and it makes me feel very VERY icky, but to protect my $120 wine kit investment, it was necessary (the kit is guaranteed, provided you follow the instructions exactly, and those instructions require racking at certain gravities.)

It pissed me off to have to buy the hydrometer. BUT... I consider this and the special 6 gallon carboy the beginnings of my wife's vinting gear, and not mpart of my brewing gear. I taught her how to take a sample and read the hydrometer last night, and I plan to never touch the thing again.

-walker