I think I am done entering Homebrew Competitions

[gbx]

1. Shotgunning. In any given competition enter lots of beers and enter the same beer in several categories. In a competition I ran a disproportionate number of ribbons went to a rather small group of entrants but they enetered a disproportionate number of beers.

This is a big thing now. There are a lot of hardcore competition brewers who spam every subcat in every style in every comp. They aren't brewing to clone their favourite beer, to create something new or even something to drink. They are brewing perfectly to style recipes over and over again for the sole purpose of winning medals. How do you think your beer will do against theirs? (you brewed less than a dozen times this year for fun without a thought about entering it in a comp). When a judge who has already tasted 5 other beautifully fermented and perfectly to style samples gets to your beer, what kind of feedback do you think you will get?

You hear stories from guys like Jamil or Gordon Strong about how they entered their first extract batch and won a medal. Maybe 5 years ago but that isn't going to happen today.

 

[helibrewer]

I agree. I've entered a few comps (including National Homebrew), scored from low to high 30's with rather useless feedback so I'm done. My best feedback is when the keg sprays CO2 foam and my buddies say "That was great, do have any more?"

 

[Pilgarlic]

I'm a judge and a competitor. As a competitor I have had surprising and inconsistent results on occasion. For the most part, though, my scores are consistent with one another for the same beer, and consistent with my expectations. It's not as bad as the exceptions make it seem, at least in my experience.

Judges commit their time and effort to become judges with the best of intentions. That said, every competition I've been a part of has suffered from too few qualified judges. That can lead to the kind of results I'm reading about, here, though, in truth, most unqualified judges are paired with a more experienced judge, and they tend to follow the more qualified judge's lead.

If you don't like the feedback or scores you're getting and you don't want to compete that's fine. A positive result of that may be that the ratio of entries to qualified judges will improve.

On the other hand, if your disappointment with judging leads you to explore judging yourself to improve the situation, it will help all of us.

 

[therainmaker]

I'm a judge and a competitor. As a competitor I have had surprising and inconsistent results on occasion. For the most part, though, my scores are consistent with one another for the same beer, and consistent with my expectations. It's not as bad as the exceptions make it seem, at least in my experience.

Judges commit their time and effort to become judges with the best of intentions. That said, every competition I've been a part of has suffered from too few qualified judges. That can lead to the kind of results I'm reading about, here, though, in truth, most unqualified judges are paired with a more experienced judge, and they tend to follow the more qualified judge's lead.

If you don't like the feedback or scores you're getting and you don't want to compete that's fine. A positive result of that may be that the ratio of entries to qualified judges will improve.

On the other hand, if your disappointment with judging leads you to explore judging yourself to improve the situation, it will help all of us.

I'm in the process of getting certified. Passed the entrance exam. Called a dozen tasting exams in a 4 hour drive the whole way out to 2016 and still don't have a seat, though I'm on every waiting list.

I emailed Gordon about this and got a very sufficient response. Basically the amount of time a d qualified judges needed far outweigh what is available, but as the bjcp grows, it will allow people to continue earning their ranks and hopeful give back by helping to proctor exams.

I committed to helping with exams one I reach the appropriate level based on the lengthy wait time and frustration I'm feeling now, and I hope others will do the same.

 

[Darwin18]

This is a big thing now. There are a lot of hardcore competition brewers who spam every subcat in every style in every comp. They aren't brewing to clone their favourite beer, to create something new or even something to drink. They are brewing perfectly to style recipes over and over again for the sole purpose of winning medals. How do you think your beer will do against theirs? (you brewed less than a dozen times this year for fun without a thought about entering it in a comp). When a judge who has already tasted 5 other beautifully fermented and perfectly to style samples gets to your beer, what kind of feedback do you think you will get?

You hear stories from guys like Jamil or Gordon Strong about how they entered their first extract batch and won a medal. Maybe 5 years ago but that isn't going to happen today.

People have been doing this for years. Both Gordon and Jamil spammed their way to homebrewing competition fame.

People still do this, just not at the NHC. If your excuse for your beer not doing well in a competition is because the other beers in your flight were better fermented and more to style, than perhaps you need to work on your brewing. People like to moan about how restrictive the BJCP guidelines are, but truthfully, there is enough room to differentiate your entry recipe-wise from the others for the bulk of the categories.

It used to be, not that long ago, that just sending in a beer that was fermented using temperature control would win you a medal. The increase in homebrewing has led to increased competition and it's more difficult to win. I think that's great. Focusing on water profiles, yeast health, freshness, and the quality of your ingredients are how you win and also how brew GREAT beer.

As a judge, I've seen some stupid stuff a handful of times, but the vast majority of the time the competition (judges, stewards, organizers) do a tremendous job. It's not easy to sit down and constructively evaluate 9 - 10 entries of the same style in a 2 - 3 hour window. If you don't like or disagree with your feed back then it is absolutely critical that you email the competition organizer and head judge and let them know! Email the judges and let them know!

I've had my share of odd scores and the occasional score sheet that leaves me shaking my head, but the majority of my entries have been spot on. I try to enter established competitions. If I'm looking at a new competition, I'll Google it and see how the previous years went. The comments about re-testing / re-evaluating judges are idiotic and come from people who themselves are not judges and do not understand how much effort it takes. Judges don't get paid. Sometimes we don't even get a lunch. I do it because I like the experience and I really like talking to people who love beer as much as I do.

 

[TobyG]

I'm in the process of getting certified. Passed the entrance exam. Called a dozen tasting exams in a 4 hour drive the whole way out to 2016 and still don't have a seat, though I'm on every waiting list.

I had my name on lists for the entire Gulf South at one point. Got a seat in Austin (7.5 hour drive) eventually, and I had a seat in Houston as a backup or retake option, but dropped it since I haven't received my original scores yet. IME, the drops start about 30 days out and sometimes increase all the way up to the last minute.

 

[MindenMan]

The first beer I entered into a competition, looking back I shouldn't have. I was proud of it and wanted get some feed back. I got creamed, and rightly so. I have since won a Best of Category: Stouts, and Porters, and if it wasn't for my amazing wife prodding me to enter it I wouldn't have done it. I was having flashbacks to the first contest, and I didn't want that kind of embarrassment again. At this point, I don't need to enter any more contests, because I know I must be doing something right, or I wouldn't have won that contests.

 

[Gar]

I dont know if anyone has said this yet cuz im to drunk to set and read this but ive never got the whole compitition thing i mean we all make beer cuz the big guys suck azz or the craft stuff we love cost like hell. or maybe you just want to get goofy with your brew im all three. hell do you like it? who cares what someone elses palite thinks. i know i know some people live for the compitions but ive read on here about 18 year old stouts entered into comps and getting results that it could use a little more cellering. man just make beer and enjoy it sorry for the long winded drunk rant just my 2 cents.

 

[gbx]

People have been doing this for years. Both Gordon and Jamil spammed their way to homebrewing competition fame.

People still do this, just not at the NHC. If your excuse for your beer not doing well in a competition is because the other beers in your flight were better fermented and more to style, than perhaps you need to work on your brewing. People like to moan about how restrictive the BJCP guidelines are, but truthfully, there is enough room to differentiate your entry recipe-wise from the others for the bulk of the categories.

This isn't my excuse for not doing well, this is me telling new brewers to not believe the myth that if they enter that one beer they have they will get good feedback and might even win. I believed that and then got bummed out after getting my first score sheets back. I realized that it was pointless to enter a beer that wasn't brewed specifically for competition as all my scoresheet just had style issues listed. Now I don't bother entering stuff that isn't on style, I've done a lot better and I'm not bummed out with stupid comments about how I can make my beer more on style. And yes there is lots of room in the BJCP guidelines but there are a lot of ****ty judges which was kind of the point of this thread. I've entered beers that were well within the guidelines but the scoresheets told me how I could make the beer more like the first commercial example.

 

[jmitchell3]

After entering a few comps, I'm entering now just to help identify process flaws rather than recipe flaws. After I fix all my process issues, I should be able to brew flawless beers. Then if I and my friends think the recipe makes a good beer, I'll make it again.


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[TobyG]

After entering a few comps, I'm entering now just to help identify process flaws rather than recipe flaws. After I fix all my process issues, I should be able to brew flawless beers. Then if I and my friends think the recipe makes a good beer, I'll make it again.

Not sure if you're being tongue-in-cheek, but that's really a tough type of feedback to expect. One of the primary guidelines for BJCP judges is not to assume or suggest you know anything about the beer's process (e.g. don't assume a particular beer was extract or AG). The feedback that judges are expected to provide is more recipe-oriented or broad process-related (i.e. general sanitation suggestions). All I can do as a judge is report what I'm smelling, seeing, and tasting. For good process related feedback, I would need more of an interactive Q&A with a brewer, which is not what competition judging is about.

 

[Flipadelphia]

I only care that myself and my friends and family enjoy my beer. I'm not a professional. This is a hobby.

 

[gbx]

Not sure if you're being tongue-in-cheek, but that's really a tough type of feedback to expect. One of the primary guidelines for BJCP judges is not to assume or suggest you know anything about the beer's process (e.g. don't assume a particular beer was extract or AG). The feedback that judges are expected to provide is more recipe-oriented or broad process-related (i.e. general sanitation suggestions). All I can do as a judge is report what I'm smelling, seeing, and tasting. For good process related feedback, I would need more of an interactive Q&A with a brewer, which is not what competition judging is about.

Thats what they tell new judges but there are plenty of older judges who still think they are supposed to write process suggestions. Often its done as a way of filling out the sheet without tasting the beer: "this thing has diacetyl, I'll just write out all the possible causes and solutions so I don't have to taste it again". Maybe thats fine if its an off-flavour bomb but not if its threshold or acceptable in the style. Even recipe feedback is often poorly written and misguided, like "don't use dark crystal malts in english pales" (I didn't use anything darker than C37 and if I did, so what?) If you get any quality feedback from competition aside from "how well will this beer do in competition" consider yourself lucky. if you want help troubleshooting your beer and constructive feedback, take it to a homebrew club meeting or your LHBS. You should be able to find someone there who can help you figure it out.

 

[Braufessor]

... this is me telling new brewers to not believe the myth that if they enter that one beer they have they will get good feedback .....

I don't know that this is a "myth" so much as it is just bad advice. I rarely get particularly useful advice from entering one beer, one time. All of my really good advice came from entering the exact same beer 3-5 times within a 2-4 week window. Taking the advice as a whole, concentrating on common themes, rebrewing with that in mind, and reentering the beer down the road multiple times. By doing that, I would say I have several types of beers that I make very well, very consistently..... moreso than styles I have not done that for. If anyone is telling someone that a single set of judging sheets will have profound impact on your beer..... well, they are probably just wrong. Or, your beer has profound imperfections that are remedied with singular process changes (ferm. temps, sanitation, etc.)

**Edit** ....and, you need to enter good competitions, put on by well-organized clubs.

To be honest - entering that many beers in that many comps is not something everyone wants to do, has the time to do, or has the money to do... That is understandable. It has been great for me, because I don't know any BJCP judges. I don't live close to any. Until recently in my brewing, I did not really even know any other homebrewers in my area. But, if you really want to "use" competitions for quality feedback, that is kind of the way you need to go about it.

I realized that it was pointless to enter a beer that wasn't brewed specifically for competition as all my scoresheet just had style issues listed. Now I don't bother entering stuff that isn't on style, I've done a lot better and I'm not bummed out with stupid comments about how I can make my beer more on style.

Ultimately, it is a STYLE competition. Entering a beer "out of style" is simply a bad idea in a style competition. Comments about being "out of style" are not stupid if the beer is actually out of style.

I've entered beers that were well within the guidelines but the scoresheets told me how I could make the beer more like the first commercial example.

This is also not, necessarily, bad advice or feedback. On the Podcast referenced earlier, Gordon Strong stated that the commercial examples are actually listed in order of best representation in the guidelines. So, even if your beer is within the guidelines, that "first commercial example" is actually sort of the benchmark for the style - and suggesting things that would make our beers more like that beer is technically what the competition is about(rightly or wrongly.)

And, I agree with a lot of your points. There are some bad judges, some bad competitions. I have been disappointed with what I felt was inaccurate or irrelevant feedback. I just think that if you really want to use competitions to improve beer - you can do it. Just not by sending a beer in here and there. It seems many (not all) of the complaints about competitions deal with things the competitions were never designed to do in the first place....

For some of the complaints in the thread(again, not all), it is almost like someone buying a Hummer and complaining about the crappy gas mileage they are getting.

 

[sudbuster]

People have been doing this for years. Both Gordon and Jamil spammed their way to homebrewing competition fame.

People still do this, just not at the NHC. If your excuse for your beer not doing well in a competition is because the other beers in your flight were better fermented and more to style, than perhaps you need to work on your brewing. People like to moan about how restrictive the BJCP guidelines are, but truthfully, there is enough room to differentiate your entry recipe-wise from the others for the bulk of the categories.

It used to be, not that long ago, that just sending in a beer that was fermented using temperature control would win you a medal. The increase in homebrewing has led to increased competition and it's more difficult to win. I think that's great. Focusing on water profiles, yeast health, freshness, and the quality of your ingredients are how you win and also how brew GREAT beer.

As a judge, I've seen some stupid stuff a handful of times, but the vast majority of the time the competition (judges, stewards, organizers) do a tremendous job. It's not easy to sit down and constructively evaluate 9 - 10 entries of the same style in a 2 - 3 hour window. If you don't like or disagree with your feed back then it is absolutely critical that you email the competition organizer and head judge and let them know! Email the judges and let them know!

I've had my share of odd scores and the occasional score sheet that leaves me shaking my head, but the majority of my entries have been spot on. I try to enter established competitions. If I'm looking at a new competition, I'll Google it and see how the previous years went. The comments about re-testing / re-evaluating judges are idiotic and come from people who themselves are not judges and do not understand how much effort it takes. Judges don't get paid. Sometimes we don't even get a lunch. I do it because I like the experience and I really like talking to people who love beer as much as I do.

This thread has dumped a lot of crap on competitions, that's a fact. Personally, I don't take it all that seriously. I brew to compete and also for my friends and family. Competitions to me are just a game we brewers play. Sometimes funny stuff happens along the way. A couple years ago I entered a 485 entry older competition. The beer I entered was one of those you can't find a category for. Since it was closest to ESB pale ale, that's where it went. The score sheets came back telling me about how it really didn't fit and so on, but both the Judges commented on the quality of the brew, one saying he wished he could buy the stuff locally. The beer still won a bronze.
If we could just lighten up and calmly overlook the "human factor" we would be a lot better off. If we keep following this path, ultimately our contests will be based on the results of laboratory analysis.
I have nothing but respect, honor, and thanks for our judges, at least until they are better paid. These gals and guys are truly devoted to quality "artisanal" brewing, spending money, and hours upon hours in study.
You all may have gripes about competitions, but let none of that fall upon our judges.

 

[sompls]

+1^ well stated sudbuster!


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[FarmerTed]

My secret wish is to enter the same beer in multiple categories and take 1st, 2nd, and 3rd Best of Show. Granted, not every style can 'fit' into multiple categories, but it would be funny if it happened.

I wouldn't say I'm a rock star or anything for this (lol), but I entered the same beer recently in a comp as an american dark lager, a dunkel, and a bock. They were the same beer, from the same batch, except that I added sinamar to the 'american dark lager' at bottling. I scored a 31, 34 and 36 (adl, dunkel, bock-the bock made mini-bos, but didn't place). The beer is decent, but not great. If it were actually great, maybe you could add 5 points to each of those scores.

I was actually surprised, though, because I thought the beer worked best as an american dark lager for whatever reason. I was shocked the 'dunkel' beat it, lol. Maybe I should have entered it as a schwarzbier instead, but I thought it was kind of crappy tasting, and to me an american dark lager is basically a crappy schwarzbier.

 

[Yooper]

I have nothing but respect, honor, and thanks for our judges, at least until they are better paid. These gals and guys are truly devoted to quality "artisanal" brewing, spending money, and hours upon hours in study.
You all may have gripes about competitions, but let none of that fall upon our judges.

Not only are we unpaid, but we spend our own money to travel to judge competitions and to further our education and credentials!

If I judge a competition at a State Fair, I pay my own mileage, pay for my own food, and hotel- and then I get grief sometimes in threads like this that can be pretty disrespectful of our efforts.

I've never been paid even a stipend to judge a comp- and in fact, judging at the final round of the NHC means I'm missing seminars that I've paid to attend! Some competitions are multi-day events, and require hotel stays.

There is one competition, I think in/near Zanesville Ohio, where they have a limited number of comped motel rooms to share- but I've never been able to make that weekend.

No one becomes a BJCP judge to "get free beer". I have heard that one alot. Trust me, many of the beers in competition are problematic and I've judged many many bad beers that I wouldn't choose to sit down and enjoy. We do it for the love of the craft, to help fellow brewers by scoring their beers objectively, and to learn more about brewing ourselves.

Judges should fill out the scoresheets according to BJCP protocols. If they do not, then the BJCP should be notified so that they may take action and re-educate the organizer and head judges on what constitutes a good scoresheet. Instead of complaining on the internet about how terrible BJCP competitions are, maybe a short email to the organizer of a less-than-great competition or someone well respected on the committee (Al Boyce comes to mind) would be in order.

It's a lot of work to become a BJCP judge, and then to continue to grow by judging and earning judging points. I'm sure there are less than great judges out there, but most are genuinely helpful and do it to help others.

 

[Pilgarlic]

I would only reiterate that the healthy, strong response if you're disappointed with judging quality is to improve that quality by qualifying and judging. Step up. Do the right thing.

 

[therainmaker]

I would only reiterate that the healthy, strong response if you're disappointed with judging quality is to improve that quality by qualifying and judging. Step up. Do the right thing.

I support this 100%. Hence why I passed the online entrance exam and an on lists for the bjcp tasting exam! Let's get things right!

 

[TobyG]

You all may have gripes about competitions, but let none of that fall upon our judges.

I agree to a huge extent (I'm one of those judges after all), but there are justifiable complaints about judges in some cases. Pretty much all of them boil down to lazy judges who phone in their scoresheets, though. Those type of things should be reported to the organizer at the least. Probably not much point in reporting to the BJCP unless they're a National or higher and act as a proctor.

 

[TobyG]

I've never been paid even a stipend to judge a comp- and in fact, judging at the final round of the NHC means I'm missing seminars that I've paid to attend! Some competitions are multi-day events, and require hotel stays.

At the most, you'll get a little swag bag with a T-Shirt in return. There's a comp in Starkville, MS, that I've seen that has free cabin stays, but it's this weekend and I have way too many conflicts.

It's a lot of work to become a BJCP judge, and then to continue to grow by judging and earning judging points. I'm sure there are less than great judges out there, but most are genuinely helpful and do it to help others.

Yep. I had the pleasure of judging a comp this past weekend with BJCP Judge A0001.

 

[danorocks17]

I want to enter comps just to see what the judges say, but my friends seem to enjoy the beer so I guess that's validation enough. A couple of my friends are pretty straight forward when it comes to critiquing it, so I really listen to what they have to say on a beer for legit critiques. Still, it would be cool to get a neutral 3rd party perspective.

 

[KeyWestBrewing]

Not only are we unpaid, but we spend our own money to travel to judge competitions and to further our education and credentials!

Very well said Yooper. I passed my entrance exam a couple weeks ago and I'm set to take my tasting exam in a few months... it shouldn't be understated how much work people put in to becoming a judge or to move up in rank. Add on the lengths and expense people go through to actually judge at comp and there's certainly more to it than drinking beer and having opinions. As was previously stated I think most of the complaints come from those that probably don't fully understand the BJCP process or the purpose of these competitions. Sure there's bound to be better judges than others but as a whole these people deserve more credit than they seem to get. None of this is even considering what it takes to judge a flight of beers.
While I might not always agree, judges have my respect. Its hard work and its done because people are passionate about it. Think you can do it better? Put in the time, money, and effort and become a judge.

 

[Darwin18]

Not only are we unpaid, but we spend our own money to travel to judge competitions and to further our education and credentials!

If I judge a competition at a State Fair, I pay my own mileage, pay for my own food, and hotel- and then I get grief sometimes in threads like this that can be pretty disrespectful of our efforts.

I've never been paid even a stipend to judge a comp- and in fact, judging at the final round of the NHC means I'm missing seminars that I've paid to attend! Some competitions are multi-day events, and require hotel stays.

Well said Yooper. I'm getting up at 5 am next Saturday to drive to Charlotte (5.5 hours round trip) and judge at another club's competition. I'm not getting paid and I "only" going to have a single entry at that competition. I'm hoping that I'll walk away with something good at the judging raffle, but I'm really doing it because it because I enjoy judging, the competition environment, and spending the day with other like-minded people.

 

[rico567]

Do yourself a favor and enter older competitions. The newer ones tend to have the most issues with score variances.

I think this is good advice, even though I don't enter my beer in competitions. I had an interesting experience a number of years back. I taught in a high school, and someone was there talking to one of the coaches. The topic got to around to judging women's gymnastics. I started listening at that point, because our school didn't even offer that sport. When I became drawn into the conversation, this person asked me if I'd like to become a judge. I stated that not only didn't I know anything about this activity, I'd never so much as been to a match, or whatever they call them, just seen it on the Olympics on TV.
This person replied to me that a background in the sport is more likely to be a hindrance to becoming a good judge than a help. I finally found out where she was going with it: they want to train a judge from the ground up in the accepted rubrics for the sport, and complete ignorance at the outset is actually considered desirable by some.
It's rather like the opinions we form about what is and is not good beer, or many other things. I know another homebrewer who is convinced his beer is very good, and I haven't found any good or tactful way to tell him what I really think of it. That's sort of the trick- what do you do about opinions are are already formed? Ever meet someone whose favorite beer is Corona, and the skunkier the better?

 

[TobyG]

This person replied to me that a background in the sport is more likely to be a hindrance to becoming a good judge than a help. I finally found out where she was going with it: they want to train a judge from the ground up in the accepted rubrics for the sport, and complete ignorance at the outset is actually considered desirable by some.

I think it boils down to what the certifying authority really wants to achieve with their certification. Coming from an industry where having an alphabet soup after your name is relatively normal, I've seen the gamut. Some of mine are relatively meaningless and effectively more sales education tools rather than evidence of technical prowess. I'm not sure the BJCP has fully formed the rubrics of what is or isn't a really good judge yet since their process is still fairly rudimentary and people-based. That being said, they are on the right track, IMO.

 

[Phunhog]

OP here!! Well I am glad I started a worthwhile discussion....I received the scoresheets (3) for my Dubbel which scored a 22 and frankly pissed me off. The score sheets though were truly hilarious!! Literally the comments were things like "off aroma" or "off taste" and that's it. Off course then there were conflicting comments light body vs. medium body etc... Who knows maybe the beer got mixed up with someone else's.....Hard for me to believe that in one comp a month earlier a Grand Master II gave it a 37 and the next comp the scores/comments are ENTIRELY different.

 

[paperairplane]

I would love to be a judge. That said, I'm not so interested that I am going to wait 6 months to drive 4-5 hours to take a test.

 

[therainmaker]

I would love to be a judge. That said, I'm not so interested that I am going to wait 6 months to drive 4-5 hours to take a test.

Do it many. Step up and that puts one more judge out there so competitions don't have to being in random dudes. I didn't want to drive massively for for a test, but we need more qualified people to judge.