I started steeping my grains too early

[kombat]

In general sugars produced by mashing are very easily digested by yeast, whereas crystal malts are usually caramelized sugars that yeast will not consume as readily (or at all in some cases)

Aha, OK that makes sense, I hadn't considered that angle. That clears things up a lot for me. Thanks BigRob.

 

[kombat]

So if we steep a base malt with enzymes

I think that's called a "mash."

in addition to crystal or Vienna, do the enzymes help convert the starches in the crystal etc...

No. As I understand it, there are no "starches" in crystal malts. They've been kilned at higher temperatures that have already caramelized the starches into sugars. That is, there are no starches in crystal malts to convert. They've already been turned to sugar.

However, as I just learned today, those sugars are not necessarily as "fermentable" as the sugars produced by enzymes converting starches in base malts.

 

[brewkinger]

I agree and I understand what is being said.
But to address the comment made earlier about "astonishment" that people do not understand the difference between mash and steep.
When you get right down to the very essence of both processes, they are very similar.

Both involve grain and water in conjunction with time and temperature constraints. So they are very similar processes with reasonably dissimilar results and reasons.

If you take a bag full of CR60L and some Vienna and soak it in 155 degree water for a period of time to impart color, flavor and perhaps a very small amount of sugar (fermentable or non-fermentable).
This is called "steeping"!!!???
If you add a reasonable amount of base malt along with the grains above into a bag and soak it in 155 degree water for a period of time to impart color, flavor and much more fermentable and nonfermentable sugars, NOW it is called a mash???

The confusion comes when we tell noobs and those that do not have a complete understanding of the processes that mashing and steeping are VERY different things. They really are not.
The end results are different, but the processes are very similar.

 

[woozy]

You seem to be using the word "conversion" as a synonym for "dissolved."

No, I was merely mistaken and wrong. My point being the the steep isn't used for getting sugars. Someone asked why wouldn't it. I figured well, *maybe* some would but it'd be negligible and unintentional. But if conversion is *physically* impossible with specialty grains, then I was simply wrong. It simply will not happen; not merely "if it happens it happened by accident".

My understanding is that sugar will dissolve into hot water all on its own. Nothing needs to "convert."

I *wasn't* claiming *that*. I was just lumping all extraction of sugar (converting, rinsing and dissolving) into one lump, but apparently I was mistaken in that the conversion doesn't occur.

If conversion is occurring, then it's no longer a "steep." It's a "mash." And if there are no base malts present, then no conversion can happen at all. Conversion can ONLY happen from the enzymes present in base malts, and only base malts contain those enzymes. No base malts = no possible conversion.

So..... Let's see if I've got this now:

If you expose Crystal or Vienna Malt to these enzymes, which they themselves do not have, then their starches will convert into sugars. But if you don't expose them to the enzymes the crystal will have some sugars that had been exposed in the mill, although it is significantly less than the potential sugar in the starch, that can be rinsed off in a steep. However the vienna malt has none.

Right?

That is why Pale Crystal has a max PPG mashing yield of 34 but a steeping yield of only 22, and why Vienna Malt has a max mashing yield of 35 but no steeping yield at all. (in other words, crystal has exposed dissolvable sugar but vienna malt doesn't).

Right?

I did not know that only the base malts had the conversion enzymes. That does make things clearer. But these enzymes, they *will* work on the specialty grains in the mash, won't they? Crystal *can* be mashed if mixed among the base grains? Right?

Someone correct me if I'm way off base here!

Me too.

 

[woozy]

No. As I understand it, there are no "starches" in crystal malts. They've been kilned at higher temperatures that have already caramelized the starches into sugars. That is, there are no starches in crystal malts to convert. They've already been turned to sugar.

Oooh, I don't think so. So after having my ass served to me on a platter, let's see if I digested it right. (ugh, not a metaphor to pursue to its logical ends, ugh)

I *think* the crystals *do* have "starches" but not the enzymes. If you place the crystal with base grains and mash the base grains the crystal will mash as well. (The enzymes in the base grains will act on the strarches in the crystal and convert them).

But starches do not have the enzymes so if you attempted to "mash" them all by themselves all you would get would be a "steep".

Crystal has "exposed" sugars that will dissolve in a steep but these are much less than the sugars extracted in a mash. Vienna malt, meanwhile, has no "exposed" sugars and a steep would yield nothing.

Right? Did I eat my ass properly and digest the right bits?

The fermentable vs. non-fermentable sugars confuse me except if you mash at low temp (140) the enzymes will convert heavily on the non-fermentable side. Oh... so I guess the dissolvable "steepable" sugars of crystal probably aren't fermentable.

 

[kombat]

If you expose Crystal or Vienna Malt to these enzymes, which they themselves do not have, then their starches will convert into sugars.

This is where we're conflicting. I'm under the impression that there are no starches in Crystal malts.

Crystal malt is plain old barley that has been malted (to create starches and activate enzymes), then kilned (to arrest the malting). If it is lightly kilned, then it simply dries out, and the enzymes and starches remain, and you have plain old 2-row (or Maris Otter, or whatever the breed of barley happens to be).

With Crystal malts, however, they are kilned hotter and longer, such that the enzymes are denatured (i.e., killed off), and the starches inside are caramelized into sugar. The different heating temperatures/times produce the different colour and flavour characteristics imparted by the resulting caramelized sugars (i.e., caramel, toffee, prune, whatever).

Bottom line: In Crystal malts, the starches are converted to sugars during the kilning process, such that even if you did mash them, there's nothing for the enzymes (from base malts) to "convert." Any starches they contained were already converted to (unfermentable, caramelized) sugars during kilning.

Again, if I'm misunderstanding, I welcome a correction.

 

[brewkinger]

Now look what you've done!!.....

I have to remain subscribed to find out the answer to a question that I have been pondering for a while.

My understanding of kilned malts from How to Brew as well as reading on the subject is that the grains are slightly moistened and laid in a thin layer. This allows the endosperm layer to germinate and begin the process of conversion. The maltster determines the degree to which this has occurred and then kilns the malt to stop the process.
This may end up somewhere as part of a sticky or wiki to help brewers everywhere understand this as well as other processes.
Glad to be a part of it.

 

[BigRob]

I believe the general range of activity is 140F to 160F, with Alpha Amylase dying out in the high 140s and Beta Amylase becoming more active around that time. This is why on beers you wish to have higher residual sweetness you tend to mash into the 150s, whereas bone dry beers like Saison are mashed in the low 140s.

There's some fairly thorough articles on the web about alpha/beta amylase, mash temps, fermentability etc. if you want a better understanding of that particular process, there's a lot more to it than the simplification above, however in general that's the idea.

All malt is Kilned, there's some processes I'm not privy to regarding crystal/caramel malts, however homemade crystal malts generally involve soaking some base malt for a couple hours, then "stewing" them around 150F for an hour or two to get conversion, then cooking them in the oven to dry and caramelize the sugars inside the husk, depending on how long-how hot you cook it, you can approximate anything from the lighter caramel malts to the darkest.

 

[woozy]

This is where we're conflicting. I'm under the impression that there are no starches in Crystal malts.

We aren't "conflicting" because I don't know and I'm just stating my interpretation for the sake of having it cleared up.

Bottom line: In Crystal malts, the starches are converted to sugars during the kilning process, such that even if you did mash them, there's nothing for the enzymes (from base malts) to "convert." Any starches they contained were already converted to (unfermentable, caramelized) sugars during kilning.

Then why do specialty grains yield sugar when included in a base grain mash but not (or in the case of crystals not so much) when steeped?

I'm now confused.

 

[kombat]

We aren't "conflicting" because I don't know and I'm just stating my interpretation for the sake of having it cleared up.

Sorry, "conflicting" might have been a poor choice of words - I just meant it's where we were differing.

Then why do specialty grains yield sugar when included in a base grain mash but not (or in the case of crystals not so much) when steeped?

I believe they do yield sugars in both cases. It's just that they're "non-fermentable" sugars, for the most part, because they were created by caramelizing the starches during kilning, rather than by enzymes during a mash. You get different kinds of sugars. One the yeast like (produced by enzymes) and one they don't (produced by the caramelization process of heat during kilning).

 

[woozy]

well, you're probably right because you've obviously read more than I have.

But I'm utterly confused now. The table I provide from How to Brew strongly implies to me that the grains are "mashable" (that sugars will be extracted during a mash, possibly requiring base grains as well, that wouldn't be extractable otherwise).

So whatevers going on, I'm confused. I'll re-read the section on mashing. (I've only skimmed through it so for and gleaned info from other sources and the streets. I don't like Palmer's section on mashing as much as his on extract because I wanted instructions first-- explanation and details follow. But it should be clearer now that I've done some all-grains.)

 

[kombat]

But I'm utterly confused now. The table I provide from How to Brew strongly implies to me that the grains are "mashable" (that sugars will be extracted during a mash, possibly requiring base grains as well, that wouldn't be extractable otherwise).

I think that just means that the (non-fermentable, caramelized) sugars in crystal malts will be extracted (dissolved) during a mash, just as they would if you steeped them instead. I don't think the presence of enzymes has anything to do with it. I think it just means you don't have to steep them separately while you simultaneously mash base grains - you can just throw them all the mash. Thus, they're "mashable."

During the mash, the enzymes will convert the starches in base grains into sugars, while simultaneously leeching out the (already present, caramelized) sugars in the crystal malts. Furthermore, there are some malts that do contain unconverted starches, but lack the diastatic enzymes to convert them, so they have to be mashed.

But I think in both cases (mash vs. steep), the crystal malts are contributing the exact same thing (perhaps a little more in a mash, because it tends to rest for a full 60 minutes, whereas a steep might be a significantly shorter period and thus they have less time to fully dissolve).

I'm not 100% positive on this, but nobody seems to be jumping in and correcting me, so I'm pretty confident this is how it works. Though it would be nice to get some confirmation (or corrections, as the case may be) from any other experts reading this.

 

[woozy]

I think that just means that the (non-fermentable, caramelized) sugars in crystal malts will be extracted (dissolved) during a mash, just as they would if you steeped them instead.

But they *won't* be extracted in the steep. According to the table in Palmer's how to brew, Vienna Malt will have a maximum yield of 75% sugar by weight or a maximum yield of 35 PPG. A typical mash at 85% efficiency will yield 30 PPG. A steep will never yield any sugar.

Crystal 25-40 meanwhile is 74% (potential) sugar by weight, with a maximum mashing yield of 34 PPG and an 85% efficiency yield of 29 PPG. A steep will yeild 22 PPG.

So what the heck is going on.

It seems to me that without knowing any thing else that *I* would conclude, perhaps incorrectly, that these grains have "starches" that will convert in a mash (perhaps not by their own enzymes though). But that's just me scratching my head and trying to figure this out.
====

 

[woozy]

Okay, I *think* it's all in here. Chapter 12.0 Barley malt defined.

Four types of grain:

Base malts: We both agree on what those are. Malts with starches and enzymes. Put 'em in a mash and the starches convert to fermentable sugars.

Kilned or roasted malts: these have been toasted. The have the starches to convert to fermentable sugars but their enzymes and "diastatic power" may have been roasted out so they might need to be mixed with base malts to "borrow" the enzymes to convert the sugars.
These include the Vienna malt, biscuit, Munich Brown etc.
But (and here is where my confusion came) they are **not** specialty grains. Although when you are doing extract batches they will be considered as specialty grains but they are not. As the extracts will not have included them in the mash, an extract recipe will need you to steep them to get the flavor. In the mash you'd be getting sugars from them but with an extract it's a little too late for that. So you just get the flavor. Thus from an extract point of view they seem like specialty grains. But they aren't.

Specialty grains: (and here you were right, mostly, and I was ... well, I was right also but a lot less so than you were). Specialty grains have undergone the heating and their starches have been converted to *complex* (unfermentable sugars). Thus you steep them to rinse the flavors and complex sugars out. (If you mix them in a mash the mash will serve as a steep as well.) However there is wiggle-room in the magic word "some".

"Besides the lighter-colored base and toasted malts, there is another group of malts that don't need to be mashed and these are often referred to as "specialty malts". They are used for flavoring and have no diastatic power (point; your favor) whatsoever. Some of these malts have undergone special heating processes in which the starches are converted to sugars by heat and moisture right inside the hull. As a result, these malts contain more complex sugars, some of which do not ferment, leaving a pleasant caramel-like sweetness. These pre-converted malts (called caramel or crystal malts) are available in different roasts or colors (denoted by the color unit Lovibond), each having a different degree of fermentability and characteristic sweetness (e.g. Crystal 40, Crystal 60)."
​

Fourth is adjuncts: which is not pertainent to the discussion. Non-barley grain that add sugar or (as in the case of rice hulls) body.

++++++++++++++++++

Given the "some" and the raw numbers on the table 12.4.1. where it states for instance:

Pale Crystal (25 - 40L):

74% max yield sugar (fermentable and not)
34 PPG max yield (fermentable and not)
29 PPG yield at 85% efficiency
22 PPG steeping yield (I presume *not* fermentable)

from this I'm making the conclusion that *most* of the starch has been converted to complex (non-fermentable) sugars. And these are to be steeped out for flavor. However not *all* of the starches have been converted and if you do mash you will get a *small* amount of fermentable sugar.

Likewise Vienna Malt, Honey Malt, Victory, all of which I've steeped in extract batches and which are sold my my LHBS as "specialty grains" , have *no* complex sugar and *no* steeping PPG because they are *not* specialty grains. There are kilned mashing grains.

At least that is how I interpret it.

Now I'm probably off on some points and I welcome corrections.