A guy I know just bought a bar. Somehow the liquor license ( according to him) is for a brew pub also and he LITERALLY has to have a brewing set up in the bar even if they do not ever brew with it... He has asked me if I can come in and advise them and brew brew beer there. The previous owner had a machine that you basically poured syrup in and pushed a button, but he took it with him....... ANYWAY my question is, will my home brewing set up, moved to his facility be legal? Or rather would it pass inspection as a " small batch commercial" set up? I have a converted keg as my boil put and use gas burners. I would assume that somehow it would have to be electric though.
I need some insight ( commercial brewing)
- Thread starter OHIOSTEVE
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Does the bar have a kitchen?
I know of a homebrewer that started brewing for a restaurant. He uses their kitchen and brews small batches. Pretty sure he has a pretty typical three vessel system on their commercial stove.
I know of a homebrewer that started brewing for a restaurant. He uses their kitchen and brews small batches. Pretty sure he has a pretty typical three vessel system on their commercial stove.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
He needs to check with the State of Ohio to find out what is required for his license.
But he is basically handing you an opportunity to get into commercial brewing with very little money. Basically, you could brew what you want to, sell it at his bar, start a barrel program, do whatever you wanted and see where it takes you. This is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity and even if you had to invest some money in a small nano set up, some kegs and fermenters, it would be worth it. You can buy stuff used and then sell it when you want to move on.
Note there is some paperwork involved with the Federal TTB about keeping records of how much raw materials you are bringing in and how much you are brewing and how the tax will be paid, but that is all part of the learning process.
I'd jump in on this before he changes his mind.
But he is basically handing you an opportunity to get into commercial brewing with very little money. Basically, you could brew what you want to, sell it at his bar, start a barrel program, do whatever you wanted and see where it takes you. This is probably a once in a lifetime opportunity and even if you had to invest some money in a small nano set up, some kegs and fermenters, it would be worth it. You can buy stuff used and then sell it when you want to move on.
Note there is some paperwork involved with the Federal TTB about keeping records of how much raw materials you are bringing in and how much you are brewing and how the tax will be paid, but that is all part of the learning process.
I'd jump in on this before he changes his mind.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
this is an established place but the previous ownership and management was pretty bad.. fantastic location... full kitchen full bar with draft set up for micro breweries ( 5 gallon Sankes) My main concern is will MY pots and mash tun etc pass inspection?. I can get up to 8 gallon stainless pots from my job no problem that WOULD pass, but that will limit me to only doing 5 gallon batches,, BUT it would make it all doable on a stove top. I think temp control for the ferment will be the biggest issue unless they are willing to allow me to wire a dedicated fridge.
triethylborane
Well-Known Member
Speak with an attorney that handles liquor licenses. There should be just a handful of them that do the bulk of liquor licensing matters in OH.
Considering the penalties, this is what I would do.
Considering the penalties, this is what I would do.
I thought I read that the biggest hangup to starting up 'professionally' was not the TTB on the federal level, but the fact there are way more state regs involved. Don't federal regs mainly pertain to the distribution across state lines? People I know and stories I've read regarding people folding up shop all revolved around their state shutting them down, not the feds.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Its my understanding that a Federal inspector is going to want to see the brewing equipment, the fermenters and how you are going to measure your finished product, like a brite tank.
You local inspectors may want things like exhaust over your brewing area, ventilation, electrical components and wiring up to code and things like that.
The fact that there was already some kind of brewing going on means that everything might already be inspected.
I really don't see how it would be worth your time to mess with an 8 gallon pot if you are selling the beer. A local Nano started with a 3 keggle set up, I think he could brew about 12 gallons at a time. You could put that system together pretty cheap. But you'll also need some temp fermentation control, fermenters, a brite tank, serving kegs and the equipment to clean them and a few other things like a PH meter, grain mill, startup capital to buy grain and hops and yeast and the spare time to make it all happen. If you are going to do it, you need to make good beer from the start. A bad reputation is worse than no reputation.
You'll also need some kind of a signed contract that states what the business arrangement is, who owns what equipment, how much you'll be paid for the beer, and what will happen if there is some kind of dispute. Also you should include what the arrangement will be if you brew more than the bar needs and want to sell kegs to other bars. If the owner is not willing to do a contract, that's OK you can offer to use HIS money to buy all the equipment, He will be responsible for all the paperwork, inspections and record keeping, and you'll be paid an hourly wage to get everything set up and for your brewing time. It would still be a worthwhile project.
If you are so low on money you are looking to get free 8 gallon pots from work, your chance of having any success is pretty slim unless the owner is willing to finance everything and hire you as an employee.
OHIOSTEVE
Well-Known Member
the 8 gallon pot from work had nothing to do with being low on money. I have sold Townecraft cookware for the last 29 years. Our largest pot is 8 gallons. THAT is what I meant. I have 2 legally acquired kegs and a friend who owns a welding/ metal fab shop. I have one converted to a keggle alrerady and it would be easy enough to do the other... I have everything to do 10 gallon batches... I THINK the only thing they would need to purchase ( if mine would pass inspection) is a temp controlled ferment area.
Northern_Brewer
British - apparently some US company stole my name
Obviously it's good that you're moving into an existing space, hopefully the basic fabric will be up to scratch. I can only go on how things work in the UK but things to watch out for :
Waste disposal is a real biggy - you need to talk to the water company about what you're allowed to dispose of, it's very tightly regulated here.
You're a food business - which brings a lot of record-keeping and other paperwork in its wake, you may need to go on food hygiene courses, that kind of thing. You may be spared the worst of this if you're an employee of the main business, as they will already be covered, but it's something to consider.
The taxman wants his share - again lots more paperwork.
All this means you have a lot of fixed time "costs" - make sure you're brewing enough to cover those costs. 20gal takes almost as much time as 10 gal, but obviously has the potential for double the revenue. Also think about varying brews in the fermenter with the addition of eg fruit etc.
Other things to check are the capacity of the electric and gas supplies - they can be real bottlenecks so you need to design capacity around them if they can't be easily increased.
In the UK the authorities are pretty helpful - they'd much rather you talk to them early about what you need to do for compliance rather than be presented with a fait accompli which they have to close down.
Waste disposal is a real biggy - you need to talk to the water company about what you're allowed to dispose of, it's very tightly regulated here.
You're a food business - which brings a lot of record-keeping and other paperwork in its wake, you may need to go on food hygiene courses, that kind of thing. You may be spared the worst of this if you're an employee of the main business, as they will already be covered, but it's something to consider.
The taxman wants his share - again lots more paperwork.
All this means you have a lot of fixed time "costs" - make sure you're brewing enough to cover those costs. 20gal takes almost as much time as 10 gal, but obviously has the potential for double the revenue. Also think about varying brews in the fermenter with the addition of eg fruit etc.
Other things to check are the capacity of the electric and gas supplies - they can be real bottlenecks so you need to design capacity around them if they can't be easily increased.
In the UK the authorities are pretty helpful - they'd much rather you talk to them early about what you need to do for compliance rather than be presented with a fait accompli which they have to close down.
Dcpcooks
Well-Known Member
The health department may require your equipment be NSF rated. You'll need to apply for a TTB license and maybe a state license as well. Thats a long process so you should start that first. I would not think about brewing commercially without fermentation control so you'll need to look into a reasonably price used commercial fridge and a ranco controller.
You should jump on it assuming they are going to pay you.
Dogfish started with a three keg set up!
Brutus Brewer
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This is a response from the Ohio Department of Commerce concerning Ohio Brewpub Laws, it dates to 2013:
You inquiry has been forwarded to my attention for a response to your questions. The following is a brief explanation of the licensing required for an Ohio brewery.
The regulatory and permit information involved for the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages in the State of Ohio will require involvement with The Department of Commerce, Division of Liquor Control (Division) and the US Treasury Department, Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB). Both the Division (www.com.ohio.gov/liqr) and TTB (www.ttb.gov) web sites are a great source of information and will answer many of your initial questions. The websites may also generate new questions as you sift through the sites. As more questions develop, please feel free to contact myself (Gary Jones) either by email or telephone at 614-644-2433. A good contact at TTB for questions about applications or processing is the National Revenue Center at phone number 877/882-3277. Investigation or inspection questions should be directed to the Northeast Field Office located in Philadelphia, PA. Stephen Albrecht is the District Director of the Northeast Field Office and the office number is (202) 453-3144.
To address more specifically your initial questions, the State of Ohio is a control state with a three tier system of licensing: manufacturers (top tier), distributors (middle tier) and retail permits (bottom tier). A class permits are issued to manufacturers, B class permits are issued to distributors; and, C, D and F class permits are issued to retailers. The Ohio Tied House law (ORC 4301.24) prohibits/restricts ownership in more than one tier of the system. This prohibition also extends to ownership outside the state of Ohio. As the manufacturer of beer in Ohio, you will require an A-1 permit.
On the Divisions web site please refer to Applications and Forms and then select Beer and Wine Section.
In the State of Ohio there is no distinction between a nano-brewery, micro-brewery and a full brewery; therefore, an A1 Permit for the manufacture of beer, ale, stout and other malt liquor have the same requirements and costs without consideration of production quantity.
The application processes for the State of Ohio and the TTB may run simultaneously; however, the TTB Permit (Brewers Notice is issued to a brewery) will have to be issued and a copy submitted to the State of Ohio as a requirement for issuance of the State Permits.
Please note: Two important factors when applying for a permit at both the federal and state levels:
1) Determine the business type: Individual (Sole Proprietor), Partnership, Corporation, LLC
2) Determine the address
If either the business type or address changes, it will affect the processing of the applications and may even require that you begin the licensing process from the beginning.
Regarding physical requirements of the manufacturing facility, the following general guidelines apply to an A1 - Brewery:
(An Inspection by the State of Ohio will determine if the facility, Permit Premises, is in compliance). Please note: that a basement of a residential home typically does not meet the States requirements.
(A) The building must be of sound construction, clean and well ventilated. The bottling and fermentation areas must be constructed of materials that can be easily cleaned.
(B) Equipment must consist of items necessary to manufacture malt based beverages. The equipment may include any or all of the following:
1. Mash tun
2. Filter
3. Brew kettle
4. Fermentation tanks
5. Holding/storage tanks
6. Bottling/canning machines
7. Bottle blower air/water
8. Proper storage for bottles, cans, and caps (subject area must be clean and dust free).
9. Bottles, kegs, or other containers
10. Washer for reusable containers, i.e. kegs and bottles
11. Forklifts and other container handling equipment necessary to a manufacturing operation.
(C) The manufacturing facility constituting the permit premises and equipment used in the manufacturing process must have a capacity to manufacture and to store product in tanks, kegs, or other approved containers.
(D) Storage: The applicant must have proper storage areas. The area must be clean and dry. It must be ascertained if the applicant will have both regular and bonded storage areas and, if so, the areas must be disclosed to the Compliance Officer during the licensing inspection and the areas must be indicated on the premises sketch.
You will also want to discuss your facility with TTB, as they too, have minimum requirements that may differ from the State of Ohio.
HB 243 was recently signed into law and became effective on March 22, 2012. The law change now allows an A-1 permit holder to have consumption on their premises of the beer they manufacture. Therefore, the business will require two restrooms, and a sink or commercial dishwasher for any re-usable glassware or containers.
The A-1-A permit would be required to sell any other beer, wine, mixed beverages or spirituous liquor. The A-1-A (not the A-1) specifically requires food service and a Food Service License by statute. The requirement for a Food Service License on an A-1 would be a decision of the local health department.
Once you have completed the application process and your permits have been issued, you may begin to produce product. Please note that no production of alcoholic products may begin prior to the issuance of the permits.
Once your permit has been issued and product has been produced, you must obtain federal label approval (COLA) and register each product with the State of Ohio, Division of Liquor Control (Division) before the product can be sold or be in the marketplace. You will also find the information related to product registration in the Beer and Wine Section of the Divisions web site.
After you have had an opportunity to review this information and the web sites, I would suggest your next contact be to TTB. I hope you find this email has addressed your initial questions and, as I mentioned in the beginning, more questions may develop as you continue this process. Please feel free to contact the Division with any additional questions you may have.
-Gary Jones
You inquiry has been forwarded to my attention for a response to your questions. The following is a brief explanation of the licensing required for an Ohio brewery.
The regulatory and permit information involved for the manufacture and sale of alcoholic beverages in the State of Ohio will require involvement with The Department of Commerce, Division of Liquor Control (Division) and the US Treasury Department, Alcohol and Tobacco Tax and Trade Bureau (TTB). Both the Division (www.com.ohio.gov/liqr) and TTB (www.ttb.gov) web sites are a great source of information and will answer many of your initial questions. The websites may also generate new questions as you sift through the sites. As more questions develop, please feel free to contact myself (Gary Jones) either by email or telephone at 614-644-2433. A good contact at TTB for questions about applications or processing is the National Revenue Center at phone number 877/882-3277. Investigation or inspection questions should be directed to the Northeast Field Office located in Philadelphia, PA. Stephen Albrecht is the District Director of the Northeast Field Office and the office number is (202) 453-3144.
To address more specifically your initial questions, the State of Ohio is a control state with a three tier system of licensing: manufacturers (top tier), distributors (middle tier) and retail permits (bottom tier). A class permits are issued to manufacturers, B class permits are issued to distributors; and, C, D and F class permits are issued to retailers. The Ohio Tied House law (ORC 4301.24) prohibits/restricts ownership in more than one tier of the system. This prohibition also extends to ownership outside the state of Ohio. As the manufacturer of beer in Ohio, you will require an A-1 permit.
On the Divisions web site please refer to Applications and Forms and then select Beer and Wine Section.
In the State of Ohio there is no distinction between a nano-brewery, micro-brewery and a full brewery; therefore, an A1 Permit for the manufacture of beer, ale, stout and other malt liquor have the same requirements and costs without consideration of production quantity.
The application processes for the State of Ohio and the TTB may run simultaneously; however, the TTB Permit (Brewers Notice is issued to a brewery) will have to be issued and a copy submitted to the State of Ohio as a requirement for issuance of the State Permits.
Please note: Two important factors when applying for a permit at both the federal and state levels:
1) Determine the business type: Individual (Sole Proprietor), Partnership, Corporation, LLC
2) Determine the address
If either the business type or address changes, it will affect the processing of the applications and may even require that you begin the licensing process from the beginning.
Regarding physical requirements of the manufacturing facility, the following general guidelines apply to an A1 - Brewery:
(An Inspection by the State of Ohio will determine if the facility, Permit Premises, is in compliance). Please note: that a basement of a residential home typically does not meet the States requirements.
(A) The building must be of sound construction, clean and well ventilated. The bottling and fermentation areas must be constructed of materials that can be easily cleaned.
(B) Equipment must consist of items necessary to manufacture malt based beverages. The equipment may include any or all of the following:
1. Mash tun
2. Filter
3. Brew kettle
4. Fermentation tanks
5. Holding/storage tanks
6. Bottling/canning machines
7. Bottle blower air/water
8. Proper storage for bottles, cans, and caps (subject area must be clean and dust free).
9. Bottles, kegs, or other containers
10. Washer for reusable containers, i.e. kegs and bottles
11. Forklifts and other container handling equipment necessary to a manufacturing operation.
(C) The manufacturing facility constituting the permit premises and equipment used in the manufacturing process must have a capacity to manufacture and to store product in tanks, kegs, or other approved containers.
(D) Storage: The applicant must have proper storage areas. The area must be clean and dry. It must be ascertained if the applicant will have both regular and bonded storage areas and, if so, the areas must be disclosed to the Compliance Officer during the licensing inspection and the areas must be indicated on the premises sketch.
You will also want to discuss your facility with TTB, as they too, have minimum requirements that may differ from the State of Ohio.
HB 243 was recently signed into law and became effective on March 22, 2012. The law change now allows an A-1 permit holder to have consumption on their premises of the beer they manufacture. Therefore, the business will require two restrooms, and a sink or commercial dishwasher for any re-usable glassware or containers.
The A-1-A permit would be required to sell any other beer, wine, mixed beverages or spirituous liquor. The A-1-A (not the A-1) specifically requires food service and a Food Service License by statute. The requirement for a Food Service License on an A-1 would be a decision of the local health department.
Once you have completed the application process and your permits have been issued, you may begin to produce product. Please note that no production of alcoholic products may begin prior to the issuance of the permits.
Once your permit has been issued and product has been produced, you must obtain federal label approval (COLA) and register each product with the State of Ohio, Division of Liquor Control (Division) before the product can be sold or be in the marketplace. You will also find the information related to product registration in the Beer and Wine Section of the Divisions web site.
After you have had an opportunity to review this information and the web sites, I would suggest your next contact be to TTB. I hope you find this email has addressed your initial questions and, as I mentioned in the beginning, more questions may develop as you continue this process. Please feel free to contact the Division with any additional questions you may have.
-Gary Jones
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