I NEED help with my efficiency

[Denny]

No I have not yet. I just moved down to this area for my first job out of college therefore my resources are are a little sparse. I know batch sparing is not the best way to go, but I know there are some guys that do it and get way better results than me.

WHAT????? That's crazy talk!

 

[Denny]

I batch sparge and get about 73% pretty consistently.

How long does your runoff and Sparging take? Running it too quickly will cause you to get really poor efficiencies I found. You need to throttle the outlet of the mash tun. First couple batches were in the 50% range until I dialed in the right discharge rate on the runoff

If slowing the runoff improved your efficiency batch sparging, you're doing something wrong. For a 5.5 gal. batch, it takes me a total of 15 min. to vorlauf the mash, run it off, stir in the sparge water, vorlauf that, and run off again. I end up with about 87 gal. of wort in the kettle and 80-85% efficiency. Slowing the runoff in batch sparging should not increase efficiency.

 

[Denny]

FYI--unless you're brewing thousands of barrels/year, chasing efficiency may actually be harmful to your beer. Check out the BN podcasts w/ Jamil: eff around 70-75% yields a richer, more flavorful beer. Just sayin'.

My own experience makes me disagree.

 

[Ztp]

I have had it crushed at three different places , do its not my crush, and I would assume it was the lhbs, but I just finished with the third different place with the same results. And I always thought that efficiency may be slightly lower with batch sparging, if that's not the case that's fine, but I simply batch sparge for convenience sake. And I see guys do it all the time with fair results.

 

[Denny]

What kind of filter setup do you have in your mash tun? I have seen where people have it setup to only filter mostly from the side of the mash tun rather than the center of the grain bed. Resulting in poor efficiency. To solve it they had to stir alot more when adding the sparge water to the mash tun. The one brewer i know jumped his efficiency from 40-50 all the way to 72-78 just by stirring the mash more when adding sparge water.

If you're batch sparging, it doesn't matter. That's one of the beauties of batch sparging...it eliminates lauter design as a variable. And no matter what your lauter design, you should always stir the batch sparge water really well.

 

[fpweeks]

So I'm gonna let er rip next time an see what happens. Pretty sure I read somewhere on here (Apparantly incorrectly) that runoff rate mattered.

 

[david00001]

My two cents: when you get everything else the way you want it (and good luck), try mash stabilizer 5.2. I have found this stuff no good at controlling mash ph, but it'll give you another 5-10% efficiency almost every time. Also, i was too timid with my mill fearing a stuck sparge. I'm milling at .040 and still never had a problem. Next stop: .035!

 

[Yooper]

So I'm gonna let er rip next time an see what happens. Pretty sure I read somewhere on here (Apparantly incorrectly) that runoff rate mattered.

I've read that, too, and I"ve also read to let the sparge water "sit" for 10 minutes after adding.

But the fact is, neither draining speed nor letting it sit are factors in the efficiency when batch sparging.

 

[Yooper]

My two cents: when you get everything else the way you want it (and good luck), try mash stabilizer 5.2. I have found this stuff no good at controlling mash ph, but it'll give you another 5-10% efficiency almost every time. Also, i was too timid with my mill fearing a stuck sparge. I'm milling at .040 and still never had a problem. Next stop: .035!

I would suggest the exact opposite- to never use that mash stabilizer especially if you don't know your water chemistry. It doesn't work to stabilize mash pH (except maybe in a handful of scenerios) and it can cause an off flavor in the beer (from my own experience).

I mill at 0.032". The old saying is "Crush 'til you're scared"!

 

[Gregwarro]

I had problems with inefficiency when batch sparging which is why I switched to fly sparge. Granted... they were my first all grain beers... and I was probably doing it wrong. I actually think it was my equipment not my technique.
Which gave me a reason to convert a keg into a MLT. I switched to fly sparging at the same time, and my efficiency went from 45-50% to 80-85%.

Maybe I will try a batch sparge my next go around, I am sure it would be faster than fly sparging for an hour s

 

[bob1852]

Getting good efficiency isn't some kind of black art. There are only so many variables. 1. Crush 2. Water - chemistry, volume, temp. 3. Time in mash 4. Sparge - volume, temp.

You forgot the most important variable: making sure you're measuring temp, volume, and gravity accurately; and understanding what volume and gravity measurements mean at different temperatures, especially if you aren't using software, or if you aren't sure your software settings are set correctly.

Test strips are pretty cheap.

They are cheap; but they aren't very accurate.

 

[mjohnson]

Some humble advice: people have thrown you a bunch of ideas. I'd be careful not to change too much at once. If I were in your shoes and I wanted to sort this out, I'd set up the next several brews so that you can eliminate variables. First, I'd make sure your volumes are correct and you're not losing too much wort in your system.

Then, I'd pick a simple recipe like a blonde ale (no dark malts to lower pH). I'd follow the brewing science water primer and use RO with slight CaCl and acid malt additions. My reasoning is that many people use that water profile with good results and RO water is a clean slate.

If your efficiency is immediately better, then you've figured it out - invest in a pH meter and read the science forum! If not, then move on to crush or sparge method - just not both at the same time.

Good luck! I'm sure you'll get it figured out. There is always that temptation to try it all at once - especially when brewing time is precious. However, in my experience, those types of shortcuts really do cause long delays.

 

[Denny]

My two cents: when you get everything else the way you want it (and good luck), try mash stabilizer 5.2. I have found this stuff no good at controlling mash ph, but it'll give you another 5-10% efficiency almost every time. Also, i was too timid with my mill fearing a stuck sparge. I'm milling at .040 and still never had a problem. Next stop: .035!

It actually reduced my efficiency by 10+ points.

 

[Ztp]

Well I appreciate all of the advice y'all have given me. I am going to assume that water is "ok" my mash tun is working properly, I know my thermometer is accurate, but I am going to have the LHBS run my grain through their mill twice, or tighten then up and see if that steps up my efficiency. I have not been too concerned with the efficiency in the past, but the next few beers I am brewing are supposed to have a slightly sweeter finish a better mouthfeel. The past few beers have finished rather dry, and will definitely not fit the profile for the next brews. Most likely I will wind up buying a mill just because I don't like my projects failing at the hands of others, I can always adjust my procedures to make my stuff work... Looking on the bright side, the beer I brewed yesterday is bubbling up a storm and I can drink it here sometime soon!

Once again I like to thank all of you, it is very nice to be able to ask for advice/suggestions from such a great community and they actually try and help out. Although there are a lot of variances to opinions, it means a lot to have so much help. I will report back as soon as I figure out what is going wrong.

 

[Ztp]

And if I can offer any advice to anyone on here. Do not get this kind of a cooler for your MLT. I thought the wheels were a good idea but they are useless with the barb sticking out. And the way the internal drain is, it was an absolute pain to get it put together.

 

[bottlebomber]

And if I can offer any advice to anyone on here. Do not get this kind of a cooler for your MLT. I thought the wheels were a good idea but they are useless with the barb sticking out. And the way the internal drain is, it was an absolute pain to get it put together.

Your whole problem there was you used the stock drain hole to install your valve. For that cooler you want to drill a hole for your valve on the other side of the cooler, the front side, and your dead space and the other problems you mentioned will disappear. That's a great cooler right there.

 

[Ztp]

Dead space is one thing I do not have a problem with. If I leave the cooler flat I have maybe .25 gallons of dead space. Once the flow gets to a certain point I prop up one end and it drains out the remainder. I MAY have .10 gallons of dead space. So I do not think this is the issue, therefore I doubt it would fix my problems. Especially since the original drain hole is in a recessed spot, it allows for better drainage in my opinion.

 

[bottlebomber]

So I do not think this is the issue, therefore I doubt it would fix my problems. Especially since the original drain hole is in a recessed spot, it allows for better drainage in my opinion.

Your problem is not being able to roll it around, plus a difficult install? A hole in the front would fix those issues. I have this same cooler that I will soon be making into a mash tun. By drilling through the front I will easily be able to work in a manifold drain. There will be no need to tip, and the only dead space will be that small recessed area. Then I'll be able to use that handle and wheel it all around, instead of picking it up and lugging it everywhere.

 

[Ztp]

Ohhh im sorry, I thought you meant my problems with my efficiency. Sorry, I have been stuck on that point all day, and I just assumed you were referring to that, not the transportation part of it.

 

[bottlebomber]

Now that you've shown us that design of cooler you are using, I am thinking that maybe the design of the cooler could be contributing. Do you have a proper mash paddle or are you stirring it with some kind of a spoon? Because with the rectangular design it would be easy to get poor extraction if you weren't stirring that grain from the outside edges back into the center. I would think you could easily lose 10% this way as opposed to a Rubbermaid tun where this isn't really an issue.

 

[Ztp]

Well I stir it with a large slotted stainless spatula, then I have a large spoon to get into the corners. I do my absolute best to get everything separated and exposed to the water. I normally stir very vigorously for a couple minutes at the minimum.

 

[ahacreative]

I double batch sparge, and I will echo what others have said...stir, then stir some more, and when you think you're finished, stir some more. I made 2 changes to my brew routine. 1: cacl & gypsum additions to RO water, along with sauermaltz, and 2: double batch sparge with MUCHO stirring. at 2 minutes, i'm just getting started. The result has been efficiencies predictably 85 to 90%.

 

[Stauffbier]

OP, I know you said you've had three different LHBS's crush your grains, so you think that fact rules out a bad crush. I hate to say it, but they are in the business of selling beer making supplies! It is in their favor to make sure your efficiency is low, so you will buy more grain! They can say this isn't true all they want, but I don't buy it! The day I started crushing my own grain my efficiency jumped by as much as 15%. So, I would say it is no coincidence that all three of the places you bought your grain aren't crushing it enough! Buy a Corona Mill and crush it till you think it's too fine. I'm willing to bet your efficiency will jump up dramtically! And..... with no ill effects!

 

[Ztp]

Ya you're probably right. I will just order one tomorrow and see what the heck happens. Not like you can get much worse than what I have been running.

 

[Stauffbier]

Ya you're probably right. I will just order one tomorrow and see what the heck happens. Not like you can get much worse than what I have been running.

I get lots of fine material and flour in my crush, but I also get good looking husk material. It's slightly shreded looking, but not to the point of being too much. I also use a SS braid like you, and lautering is no problem. Don't pay any mind to the dreaded "tannin" warnings. You gotta turn the husks in to flour AND have pH that favors tannins to worry about that!

 

[bottlebomber]

OP, I know you said you've had three different LHBS's crush your grains, so you think that fact rules out a bad crush.

I don't think anyone could say that without coming over to OPs house with their mill and seeing what he could do with a proper crush. Out of 5 or 6 online HBSs I've used I am only familiar with one - BMW - that would give the crush I need to get 75% efficiency. Out of the 2 LHBSs I've used, I got 60% from both. These guys are in the business of selling grain as you mentioned, and I've had 2 proprietors tell me that if I'm getting over 60% (what the "big boys" are getting according to one) that my beer isn't as good as it could be. Meh.

 

[Stauffbier]

I don't think anyone could say that without coming over to OPs house with their mill and seeing what he could do with a proper crush. Out of 5 or 6 online HBSs I've used I am only familiar with one - BMW - that would give the crush I need to get 75% efficiency. Out of the 2 LHBSs I've used, I got 60% from both. These guys are in the business of selling grain as you mentioned, and I've had 2 proprietors tell me that if I'm getting over 60% (what the "big boys" are getting according to one) that my beer isn't as good as it could be. Meh.

Well, I will admit that my local LHBS does crush it right. The guy that owns the mill they use is an avid homebrewer that makes great beer, and he always gave me a finer crush than any online HBS ever did. Anytime I used grains he crushed I got +75% vs. anytime I used online suppliers I got 55%-65% at best. Then when I got my own mill and crushed to the point of being scared (like Yopper said), I started to get 79% -81% efficiency with zero astringency. Coincidence? Maybe.. But, I will stick with crushing the snot out of my grain!

 

[BOBrob]

I say the same as most. Grind and stir. My barly mill set at.035 turns most to flour and husks. You will see a great difference between the stores grind and your own, dough in well and a good stir a couple of times in 60 min. will get you into 70 & 80%.The first batch I did with my grind shocked me, I could not beleive the hydrometer readings coming from the runnings of the MLT! From 60% eff. with store grind to 80-85% eff. in one batch. Now I am a solid 85% or higher, hit my temps and adjust PH in the sparge water helped greatly.in finally making good beer. Cheers

 

[fpweeks]

My mill has fixed rollers. I have always thought I got a good crush. Maybe I should run it through twice and see what happens?

 

[user 19629]

You might want to check that your hydrometer is reading correctly.
Also make sure to correct for temp.