I need a good (but not too good) whiskey for my Imperial Stout

[ong]

Once the barrel is “sour” it’s never going to be clean again. I think the most one can hope for is maybe four clean batches before there’s some funk going on. It’s a fun project, anyway.

One of the most approachable sours I’ve tried is the Dogfish Head SeaQuench — it’s really tasty, with lime zest and sea salt. But I’m sure you can find a pretty broad range at bottle shops.

 

[Soulshine2]

Once the barrel is “sour” it’s never going to be clean again. I think the most one can hope for is maybe four clean batches before there’s some funk going on. It’s a fun project, anyway.

One of the most approachable sours I’ve tried is the Dogfish Head SeaQuench — it’s really tasty, with lime zest and sea salt. But I’m sure you can find a pretty broad range at bottle shops.

this is why JD only uses barrels once. To keep control of flavors. Once the barrel is used for something other than the initial intention, its hard to predict what the consecutive batches that come in contact will do. I can see the outcome aging beer or another spirit in a once used (lets call it a "seasoned" )whiskey barrel (red wine into a whiskey barrel comes out like a sherry ), after that I think the outcome is a crapshoot.

 

[ong]

this is why JD only uses barrels once. To keep control of flavors. Once the barrel is used for something other than the initial intention, its hard to predict what the consecutive batches that come in contact will do. I can see the outcome aging beer or another spirit in a once used (lets call it a "seasoned" )whiskey barrel (red wine into a whiskey barrel comes out like a sherry ), after that I think the outcome is a crapshoot.

Yes, I would agree with this. The upside is that such a crapshoot makes sense for homebrewers, even if it would be a bad idea at the commercial scale. Of the five beers I’ve had in my barrel, only one, the brown ale, has been subpar (just far too much bourbon flavor for my taste).

 

[Dirkdougler]

Cheap and good. Evan Williams is nice. Has a little bit of that bold Wild Turkey taste at a lower price point

 

[davidabcd]

Cheap and good. Evan Williams is nice. Has a little bit of that bold Wild Turkey taste at a lower price point

that's not eastpointe, michigan is it?

 

[bkboiler]

one more vote for makers mark. done a few diff styles with that and it’s worked well for porter and stout options

 

[Dirkdougler]

that's not eastpointe, michigan is it?

It is. You know it?

Just checked your location. We should do a brew day sometime lol

 

[davidabcd]

Just from experience with RIS, 12 oz of bourbon in a 5 gallon batch is a LOT of whiskey flavor. Like, it might taste like a Jack ‘n’ Coke.

It might be something you want to add incrementally (pull 1/100th of the batch and add .04 oz to see what 4 oz will take like). You could still secondary on the oak after you do this test.

Trying the(bourbon barrel stout) Dragon's Milk clone in about 30 minutes. I'm really excited and time has seemed to stop. I'm not expecting much carbonation yet, being only two weeks, but I do want to see that it has at least started. 70F for conditioning. I'm hoping "Jack and Coke" isn't how I describe it but I'll drink it all even if it is. I'm keeping my fingers crossed.
It's been my most expensive beer to make because of the whiskey purchase, oak spirals and large amount of LME.

 

[davidabcd]

Hope it comes out to your liking! I suspect it will be quite awhile before it mellows a bit and gets a more rounded flavor (I’m just now liking some of the RIS I bottled in early 2016).

Alright, so I drank one. It actually went down quickly. Maybe shouldn't have drank it while I was actually thirsty. It's well over 10%, possibly even a bit over 11% and after sipping and evaluating the first half, I drank the second half (flip-top, 16oz bottle user) almost like it was a Gatorade and I had just finished a 10K run...in the summer.
So, it does need more time, obviously, but it's not bad; in fact, if it were carbed fully for a stout, I could live with it as is.
I really tried to notice the whiskey/stout ratio because of your mentioning it and others agreeing with that and it's basically what I thought it might be. It is early so it's hard to tell.
It would be useful if you've had a bottle of Dragon Stout, a Michigan beer. I'm guessing they ship to other states but I don't know where.
Anyway, I won't lie: there's no doubt that there is whiskey in this beer. I think it will balance once the beer is finished conditioning--especially when "months" and not "weeks" are the key.
I'm extremely easy to please with an ale, especially if someone has made it.
Great learning experience on this one. Prior to home brewing, I wouldn't even look at a stout as an option except for a black and tan and I'm not even sure if the "black" is a stout!

 

[Dirkdougler]

Alright, so I drank one. It actually went down quickly. Maybe shouldn't have drank it while I was actually thirsty. It's well over 10%, possibly even a bit over 11% and after sipping and evaluating the first half, I drank the second half (flip-top, 16oz bottle user) almost like it was a Gatorade and I had just finished a 10K run...in the summer.
So, it does need more time, obviously, but it's not bad; in fact, if it were carbed fully for a stout, I could live with it as is.
I really tried to notice the whiskey/stout ratio because of your mentioning it and others agreeing with that and it's basically what I thought it might be. It is early so it's hard to tell.
It would be useful if you've had a bottle of Dragon Stout, a Michigan beer. I'm guessing they ship to other states but I don't know where.
Anyway, I won't lie: there's no doubt that there is whiskey in this beer. I think it will balance once the beer is finished conditioning--especially when "months" and not "weeks" are the key.
I'm extremely easy to please with an ale, especially if someone has made it.
Great learning experience on this one. Prior to home brewing, I wouldn't even look at a stout as an option except for a black and tan and I'm not even sure if the "black" is a stout!

You kind of inspired me to possibly bourbon up my oatmeal stout I have had aging in my carboy since July 9.

I actually bought barrel staves. Haven't settled on going with a lighter brown ale kind of style to use them on, or risking my stout. I planned to keg it in November.

I might squeeze out a few manly tears if I tried it and got it wrong. I have been looking forward to it.

Ahhh decisions... I love this hobby lol

 

[toddo97]

You kind of inspired me to possibly bourbon up my oatmeal stout I have had aging in my carboy since July 9.

I actually bought barrel staves. Haven't settled on going with a lighter brown ale kind of style to use them on, or risking my stout. I planned to keg it in November.

I might squeeze out a few manly tears if I tried it and got it wrong. I have been looking forward to it.

Ahhh decisions... I love this hobby lol

At bottling, you could try to bourbon a gallon or so of it so you're not all in case you mess it up

 

[cegan09]

this is why JD only uses barrels once. To keep control of flavors. Once the barrel is used for something other than the initial intention, its hard to predict what the consecutive batches that come in contact will do. I can see the outcome aging beer or another spirit in a once used (lets call it a "seasoned" )whiskey barrel (red wine into a whiskey barrel comes out like a sherry ), after that I think the outcome is a crapshoot.

That's not quite true. While Jack labels their product as Tennessee whiskey, they technically follow the rules for bourbon (with the addition of the charcoal filtering). One of the rules for bourbon is that you must age it in a NEW oak barrel. So every batch of bourbon needs to go into a new barrel. If you use a used barrel, it's still whiskey, but it isn't bourbon. That's why there is such a huge market for bourbon barrels, they can't use them again. So they get sent off to other whiskey makers who aren't limited in their barrel choice (scotch is the biggest market), and brewers who want to barrel age. You can get repeatable results with used barrels, and the results can be a lot more friendly as well. michter's us1 american whiskey is an example of a whiskey aged in used barrels that is fantastic. Smoother, sweeter, less harsh, excellent.


To address the person asking why you soak in whiskey not vodka, you're trying to mimic aging the beer in a barrel. Brewers cannot add liquor to their product, so if they want that flavor they have to get creative. When whiskey ages in a barrel the barrel soaks up some of the product in the wood. Then you fill with beer and the wood will trade some of the whiskey for beer, adding that flavor. So you pre-soak the oak pieces in whiskey to mimic this and allow you to add whiskey and oak flavor at the same time during aging. You could use any number of liquors to get the flavor you want. Port soaked oak is also fantastic in a stout.

Don't get hung up on the amount of whiskey to soak the oak in. Basic rule is just cover them in whatever container you have and let it sit for a while. Add the cubes/spirals/chips whatever you used, and then after it's aged on the oak a while taste and decide if you need to add more of the liquor to get the flavor you want.

 

[davidabcd]

You kind of inspired me to possibly bourbon up my oatmeal stout I have had aging in my carboy since July 9.

I actually bought barrel staves. Haven't settled on going with a lighter brown ale kind of style to use them on, or risking my stout. I planned to keg it in November.

I might squeeze out a few manly tears if I tried it and got it wrong. I have been looking forward to it.

Ahhh decisions... I love this hobby lol

Cool! I saw a post after yours suggesting caution. It seems like a good way to go. I threw caution out the window and possibly just got lucky.

 

[Soulshine2]

That's not quite true. While Jack labels their product as Tennessee whiskey, they technically follow the rules for bourbon (with the addition of the charcoal filtering). One of the rules for bourbon is that you must age it in a NEW oak barrel. So every batch of bourbon needs to go into a new barrel. If you use a used barrel, it's still whiskey, but it isn't bourbon. That's why there is such a huge market for bourbon barrels, they can't use them again. So they get sent off to other whiskey makers who aren't limited in their barrel choice (scotch is the biggest market), and brewers who want to barrel age. You can get repeatable results with used barrels, and the results can be a lot more friendly as well. michter's us1 american whiskey is an example of a whiskey aged in used barrels that is fantastic. Smoother, sweeter, less harsh, excellent.


To address the person asking why you soak in whiskey not vodka, you're trying to mimic aging the beer in a barrel. Brewers cannot add liquor to their product, so if they want that flavor they have to get creative. When whiskey ages in a barrel the barrel soaks up some of the product in the wood. Then you fill with beer and the wood will trade some of the whiskey for beer, adding that flavor. So you pre-soak the oak pieces in whiskey to mimic this and allow you to add whiskey and oak flavor at the same time during aging. You could use any number of liquors to get the flavor you want. Port soaked oak is also fantastic in a stout.

Don't get hung up on the amount of whiskey to soak the oak in. Basic rule is just cover them in whatever container you have and let it sit for a while. Add the cubes/spirals/chips whatever you used, and then after it's aged on the oak a while taste and decide if you need to add more of the liquor to get the flavor you want.

Yes, you're right about the barrels single use, I already mentioned that, also mentioned the JD oak barrel chips- already charred, whiskey aged and in a size perfect for relatively fast imparting of flavors. But actually it is a Tennessee sour mash ,meaning the mash is partially used in the next or consecutive mash ...much like a sourdough starter. yes the difference is the charcoal mellowing that sets it apart from a "bourbon" .Bourbon "technically" can only come from Bourbon County ...Kentucky. And the barrel time is a minimum of 3 yrs . after that it is the distillers choice as to if any more time is needed before bottling...or re-barreled into charred sugar maple barrels for an additional 2 yrs for their (JD's)other brand, 72 (basically its Old #7 twice mellowed).

 

[Soulshine2]

the

Alright, so I drank one. It actually went down quickly. Maybe shouldn't have drank it while I was actually thirsty. It's well over 10%, possibly even a bit over 11% and after sipping and evaluating the first half, I drank the second half (flip-top, 16oz bottle user) almost like it was a Gatorade and I had just finished a 10K run...in the summer.
So, it does need more time, obviously, but it's not bad; in fact, if it were carbed fully for a stout, I could live with it as is.
I really tried to notice the whiskey/stout ratio because of your mentioning it and others agreeing with that and it's basically what I thought it might be. It is early so it's hard to tell.
It would be useful if you've had a bottle of Dragon Stout, a Michigan beer. I'm guessing they ship to other states but I don't know where.
Anyway, I won't lie: there's no doubt that there is whiskey in this beer. I think it will balance once the beer is finished conditioning--especially when "months" and not "weeks" are the key.
I'm extremely easy to please with an ale, especially if someone has made it.
Great learning experience on this one. Prior to home brewing, I wouldn't even look at a stout as an option except for a black and tan and I'm not even sure if the "black" is a stout!

the black could be a porter ,the tan ,any pale ale or even an english "bitter".

 

[cegan09]

Yes, you're right about the barrels single use, I already mentioned that, also mentioned the JD oak barrel chips- already charred, whiskey aged and in a size perfect for relatively fast imparting of flavors. But actually it is a Tennessee sour mash ,meaning the mash is partially used in the next or consecutive mash ...much like a sourdough starter. yes the difference is the charcoal mellowing that sets it apart from a "bourbon" .Bourbon "technically" can only come from Bourbon County ...Kentucky. And the barrel time is a minimum of 3 yrs . after that it is the distillers choice as to if any more time is needed before bottling...or re-barreled into charred sugar maple barrels for an additional 2 yrs for their (JD's)other brand, 72 (basically its Old #7 twice mellowed).

Again, not quite. Bourbon does not have geolocation requirements other than it must be made in the United States. You can make bourbon anywhere in the country. The other requirements are that it has to be 51% or more corn in the mash, It can't be distilled to higher than 160proof, and it can't enter a barrel at more than 125 proof. It can't be sold at less than 80 proof. It must be aged in new barrels, but there is no min time. You can technically age it for 15 minutes and it will count. 3 years is just an agreed time period that creates good bourbon and most distilleries use it as a guideline for their products. JD technically meets all those requirements, so their product is a bourbon, but they sell it as a Tennessee whiskey to distinguish themselves from the market and use their extra processes to justify it. There wasn't a legal definition of "Tennessee whiskey" until a couple years ago, it was just marketing before that.


Chips are actually the worst thing to age on. They impart a more singular dimension oak character and they do it very fast. Cubes are better, you get more control and a better more complex flavor addition, and spirals are better still.

 

[Soulshine2]

It IS a minimum of 3 yrs. I'm not making this up. The information I gave is straight from the multiple distillery tours Ive had at JD over the last 8 yrs . what other distilleries do ,I wouldn't know.
Yes, your information on the proof numbers are right ,but thats not relevant to the OP question or situation.
OP asked about what he could add to his brew. Hes basically wanting to add whiskey or bourbon directly to his beer (like a shot in a beer?)instead of going a step further ,taking the time and aging it in a barrel and get more of the oak characteristics to the beer along with the spirit and of course slightly elevated alcohol content (from whats referred to as the "devils cut" ,yet not as direct as adding a spirit . I think it would be a much better end product given the time.
I was merely explaining why the barrels are used once and then sold to other places to do what I was and still am suggesting the barrel wood chips. They are small and can impart their contributions quickly . They have the combination of the oak, char and spirit flavors in a cheap($3 bag), compact easy to use form. How cubes and spirals are any better, i don't understand. Same thing , different size . Yes, he could pour it into a jar and put a whiskey soaked chunk of oak in it for 15 minutes,but will that do what 3 yrs in a charred barrel thats been subjected to 3 yrs worth of seasonal temperature fluctuations (wood fiber open and close as it is warmed or cooled ,basically "breathing" besides giving off the "angels share" ,trading the sugars, tannins and aromas within the oak fibers with the liquid inside it giving it the caramel color, vanilla ,peppery and spicy notes and flavors )will do ? Maybe, but I doubt it .
Some things just cant be rushed.
When you make chicken soup do you drag the chicken and vegetables through hot water for 15 minutes. No you cut it up and simmer it . Smaller parts ,let it meld together.
Time and patience.

 

[cegan09]

The comment about chips vs other forms comes from many many people trying them in their beers. Chips are thin and have a much larger surface area compared to other forms. This means they impact flavor on the beer very quickly and often single dimensionally. It's very easy to over oak with chips because of this increased surface area vs volume of the oak. And it's very hard to fix a beer that's been over oaked.

With larger cubes and spirals you get a more complex flavor because there is less surface area vs volume and there are different layers of wood. The surface is charred, but the inside is fresh wood, just like a barrel. Compared to the chips which are more uniform throughout.

Best practice with any of them is to soak them in your preferred alcohol for anywhere from a week to months before adding to the beer. Doing so allows the liquor to react with the wood, soak in, extract flavor, etc. Then you throw them in beer and the beer gets to soak in and out of the oak like a barrel. Again, with chips you lose some complexity because there isn't much depth for the beer to extract from. This isn't just speculation, most people who play with oak aging agree that cubes and spirals make for a better beer compared to chips.

Myself I've been playing with oak aging in bottles. Meaning throwing a whiskey soaked oak cube into each bottle and leaving it. First experiment was with a barelywine using half a cube per 16oz bottle. It works shockingly well. A year on and the impact is lovely. It's not overpowering, just enough to differentiate it from the plain version. I'm going to try it again with a big stout and ramp up to a full cube per bottle.


as for my comments on JD, I was simply laying out the legal definitions for bourbon (which JD technically is), which as no min aging time. As I said, each distillery has it's own min time that they decide on for producing their product. Clearly JD picked 3 years.

 

[cegan09]

One other point. There is a difference between wanting whiskey flavor and wanting oak flavor. I know people who loathe oak flavor in beers, but like beers with a heavy whiskey taste. And I know those that are the opposite. I've had commercial beers that were heavy on oak with little to no liquor influence (barrels that were on their 3rd or more use so the liquor was washed out by then), and others that were first refill whiskey barrels and were super heavy on whiskey flavor. How you get these flavors in home brewing can be done multiple ways.

If all you care about is flavor from the liquor, then just add some of that right to the beer. Add a little at a time until it's where you want it. My example here is port into a big heavy stout. Works super well.

If you care more about barrel characteristics then you pick your preferred oak format (chips, cubes, spirals, etc) and prepare how you wish. Soak them in nothing if you just want wood characteristics. Soak in your favorite liquor if you're looking for barrel finish mimicking.

No one's singular preference is the right way. It's right for them, but not everyone. Play with it until you find what you like.

 

[madscientist451]

The comment about chips vs other forms comes from many many people trying them in their beers. Chips are thin and have a much larger surface area compared to other forms. This means they impact flavor on the beer very quickly and often single dimensionally. It's very easy to over oak with chips because of this increased surface area vs volume of the oak. And it's very hard to fix a beer that's been over oaked.

With larger cubes and spirals you get a more complex flavor because there is less surface area vs volume and there are different layers of wood. The surface is charred, but the inside is fresh wood, just like a barrel. Compared to the chips which are more uniform throughout.

Comparing Jack Daniels barrel chips, which are sold as a grilling/smoking product, to toasted oak cubes is like comparing apples to oranges.
Oak cubes are (usually) new and haven't been exposed to whiskey in a barrel. More Beer sells a product that they describe as chunks of used oak barrels, but they aren't perfect cubes. There are a bunch of other products, like spirals, staves with holes drilled and others available as well. Of course the flavor is going to be different. But if you are trying to make a clone of a beer that is aged in used oak whiskey barrels, using new oak isn't going to produce the flavor you are trying to achieve.
I use the Jack Daniels chips in cider and beer. I pick out the biggest pieces and soak them in Woodford reserve Bourbon. The smaller pieces are used to smoke ribs.
I'm not a Bourbon expert, Woodford reserve was just what was recommended at the store as being "very oaky".
Over-oaking can be a problem. So I always reserve a portion of un-oaked cider or beer in case I need to so some blending. If I want more bourbon presence, I add more bourbon to taste when bottling.
I DO use new oak products like cubes and spirals when I'm looking for the flavors those products provide.
Adding spirits to beer/cider/wine is one advantage home brewers have over commercial producers. You can dial in the flavor you are looking for by adding different amounts.

 

[Soulshine2]

Ok, all I read there was a contradictory statement .
-I suggested to the OP to aging on the charred oak barrel chips (charred oak impregnated with whiskey, which if I read my own statement right, thats not single dimensional, its at least 3)
-your reasoning NOT to is that it can be over-oaked but then you say you leave an unused oak cube (one dimensional to me), bottle it and leave it . Please tell me now that you've bottled it can you try it to tell when its been oaked enough ?
-Each bottle that you don't drink becomes oaked more each second its in there.
At the least, the chips are a faster acting dimension and in that ,once the desired oakiness has been reached(if in fact thats your end expectation) , simply remove them. Want more whiskey taste , add that an ounce at a time.

I can totally agree that each individual has individual tastes and expected outcomes .
Again, I was only making a suggestion. I didn't mean for this to turn into an argument .
Geez, Relax, don't worry and go have a homebrew.

 

[cegan09]

I wasn't trying to make it an argument, I was explaining my views on the subject. You asked why chips vs cubes was that much different and I was trying to explain. Sorry if it came across more harsh than intended, I like nerding out on fun subjects and happen to be a big whiskey fan, it probably translated to plain text poorly. I'll try again.

There's two things to consider with oak aging. First is contact area between the beer and oak. The more surface area you have in contact the faster the beer will take on the oak character. Chips, because of their shape, have a lot more surface area than an equivalent weight of cubes. As a result, the chips will impart a lot of flavor very quickly. If this is your first time playing with oaking it can be very easy to over oak with chips. Cubes have a smaller surface area compared to the same weight. I bring up weight because you'll see people mention things like "use 3oz of oak per 5 gallons." That 3oz will have hugely different affect depending on the form factor of oak. Cubes are a better option to start with because they work slower. You can check it once a week and decide when you're happy with the results. With chips you might blow right past your desired levels if you're not careful. I point it out only to help people who are new to the subject.

If you have used chips in the past and know what time period gets you to where you like your beer, great, keep doing that.


The second is the dimensionality of the flavor you get from each. This is less important to some, but it's fun to discuss. Some people don't notice a difference, others swear by it. Cubes, being new oak that's been toasted, have different layers to them, much like a barrel will. Char on the outside, fresh on the inside. these layers do allow different flavors to be pulled as the beer soaks in and out of them. Chips tend to be more single dimensioned. You're right that the cubes you buy from the LHBS haven't spent years soaking and reacting to a liquor. But you can add that layer with a month or more of soaking them in something. Is it perfectly the same? Maybe not, but it's close enough that most couldn't tell you otherwise. The description you'll see most is that chips tend to just give a wood flavor, while cubes will give a wider spectrum including the vanilla and other flavors associated with bourbons. Adjusting your quantity of oak and time left aging on it changes those dimensions. Again, not saying that chips should never use used, just pointing out that there are different results that you may want to experiment with.


I brought up my experiments with oaking in a bottle because it's been a fun science project. The biggest warning I see is being careful not to over oak, not to leave the beer sitting on it too long. I wanted to see if there was a level you could add where it would impart the flavor you wanted and hit a plateau where it didn't go too far. My thread on it is here if you're interested: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/forum/threads/oaking-beer-in-bottles.636724/ I have a bottle that's been sitting for a year chilling in my fridge to try this weekend and update the thread with.

 

[danielthemaniel]

Something to consider with oak chips/cubes/spirals is that they contain tannins which can impart a really harsh flavor. It's best to steam the for 20 minutes to eliminate the tannins. Then you can add your choice whiskey to the oak and let it sit. I like to put it in the fridge and the take it out periodically to simulate the change of seasons which allows the wood to expand and contract, soaking up every drop of whiskey!

 

[davidabcd]

Something to consider with oak chips/cubes/spirals is that they contain tannins which can impart a really harsh flavor. It's best to steam the for 20 minutes to eliminate the tannins. Then you can add your choice whiskey to the oak and let it sit. I like to put it in the fridge and the take it out periodically to simulate the change of seasons which allows the wood to expand and contract, soaking up every drop of whiskey!

I just saw this. Very interesting, especially the steaming to eliminate the tannins. I used spirals. Thanks.

 

[danielthemaniel]

I just saw this. Very interesting, especially the steaming to eliminate the tannins. I used spirals. Thanks.

I hope it turns out great!

 

[davidabcd]

I hope it turns out great!

It's about halfway carbonated. The flavor is really good, needs some time. I'm thinking another few months. I'm way more than pleased with it. Thanks.

 

[danielthemaniel]

It's about halfway carbonated. The flavor is really good, needs some time. I'm thinking another few months. I'm way more than pleased with it. Thanks.

Cant go wrong with aging it longer. How long has it been since you brewed it?

 

[davidabcd]

Cant go wrong with aging it longer. How long has it been since you brewed it?

I brewed it on August 7th and bottled on August 29th (I do at least three weeks primary and then bottle for everything). So not even a month.

 

[danielthemaniel]

I brewed it on August 7th and bottled on August 29th (I do at least three weeks primary and then bottle for everything). So not even a month.

Still young then. If it's good now I bet it will be fantastic around the 4 month mark