I may quit soon! Help!

[JJDMusic]

Yeah I think so too. I figured, even if they are cheap and crappy, they would still show me a difference in the waters I was comparing.

If switching water solves my problem, I am not going to worry about my mash pH. If water is not the solution I will be getting something better to test with.

 

[GreasyGuitar]

i'm troubleshooting a similar issue, only with some paler ales. i think my problem has to do with fermcaps. i just started using them about a month ago, and have used them in four brews. two have aged normally (3-4 weeks primary, then keg). both are disgusting, and i keep this beer in the rotation at all times. i'm not going to use them in my next one, just to see if that's the problem.

 

[JJDMusic]

It is frustrating isn't it. Good luck.

The English Strong Ale has been in primary for a couple of days now and is still kickin it. A nice two inch krausen on this one. I always use a blow off hose with my 6.5 carboy because, I once pitched too much yeast in a Belgian and almost had a big mess to clean up. I'm not a fan of scrubbing beer out of carpet and off of walls and ceilings. I will replace that with an airlock once the krausen starts to drop a bit, and take a reading. I never really need the blow off but, better safe than sorry.

 

[phatuna]

JJD, what about doing some 1/2 batches to try to pinpoint this thing without breaking the bank?

 

[Synovia]

This tells me you got bad test strips. pH of 3.5 puts the acidity somewhere between beer (4.5), and lemon (3 ish). If that's your tap water pH, I'd be more than surprised.

tap water may actually be that acidic if you don't let it off gas for a while.


I doubt the poland springs is that low though, so you're probably right on the strips.

 

[Jkane101]

This thread may interest you, regarding your water. I sent for the sample stuff and will be mailing in my water. I'll need to come here to have the super-smart people figure out what my results mean

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f128/how-send-water-ward-labs-test-129581/

 

[trebor]

Typically, I've had great results with "store bought" spring water. I don't use household water because of the water softner "influence". I don't boil for more than an hour as I feel it's unnecessary as it only provides a medium to dissolve the necessary flavors from the hops and adjuncts. Store bought water is cheap, realitively speaking, as great beer is great. Do the math and come as close as you can to the recipe, temps are important. Do the simple beer recipes first, solve your problems and then you can get into more complex recipes as you evolve.

 

[JJDMusic]

Okay, I tasted the all spring water batch today, (just shy of two weeks primary) and it had that same off flavor. I no longer think it is my water. Or my mash since the bottled water would surely give me a different pH.

Back to the diacetyl reasoning.

That being said, I kegged the nut brown ale I made awhile ago when I made this post. I took it out of the primary 62 degrees, and put in in secondary ambient 72 degrees for two weeks. The off flavor was much less noticeable.

If it is diacetyl why is it only coming up in these brews and not ones from the past. Same recipes and all.

Should I start fermenting at the higher ends of my yeast tolarance, if so how do I avoid esters?

 

[JJDMusic]

I did an extract recipe from NB the nut brown ale. The beer is not that good but it does not seem to have any off flavors. So, the off flavor I am getting must just be from my all grain batches. What the &@*% could it be?

Last Batch

I used spring water
Grain precrushed from NB
Beer Smith water and temp caculations.

 

[Cheaton]

Grain supply? Maybe the issue is with the grain itself?......

 

[Bobby_M]

What are you using for your sanitizer? Are you sure you are mixing it to the right concentration?

If all else fails, use distilled water and 1 gram of gypsum, epsom salt and 2 grams of calcium chloride and stick to a smash pale ale recipe like Maris Otter with Cascade.

I wouldn't assume that bottled drinking water is any better for brewing than local crap.

 

[JJDMusic]

My sanitizer is Iodophor, and yes it is properly mixed. This is not infection. My stout turns out drinkable but everything else is awful.

What kind of off flavors would too low or too high of a pH level cause? I am thinking about getting some good test strips and 5.2 stabilizer.

And has anyone ever had problems with crushed grains from Northern Brewer?

 

[Bobby_M]

I meant that you might have been mixing these no rinse sanitizers too strong and rendering them not rinse-less.

It sounds to me like you're running a high mash PH due to high residual alkalinity. Dark grain is acidic so it would pull it down to acceptable ranges, but base malts alone wouldn't. Spending the 16 bucks on a ward labs test would be worth while in that regard.

 

[z987k]

I meant that you might have been mixing these no rinse sanitizers too strong and rendering them not rinse-less.

It sounds to me like you're running a high mash PH due to high residual alkalinity. Dark grain is acidic so it would pull it down to acceptable ranges, but base malts alone wouldn't. Spending the 16 bucks on a ward labs test would be worth while in that regard.

I suspect you are using too much iodine, or diacetyl as said. To do a d-rest, after or really close to the completion of fermentation bring the temp up. If you are feremnting in the mid 60's with ale yeast it is very likely you will need to do thing. And by bring the temp up... Bring it up to 75 right after fermentation has finished.

 

[Deebee]

I know that some yeasts can cause problems if the beer is allowed to lay on the lees for too long after the fermentation is finished.

I use pretty much only safeale 04 for pale and british ales, and although it may not bring the Fg down much more than 1014 i have never had a problem with it.

I might also suggest changing the cleanser you have? I use a powder ( that i will gladly send you a sachet of if you want) that is dosed at one level tablespoon pr 10 liters of water. It works fine and simple rinsing with cold water is all thats needed.

The stuff doesn't cost much so i'll send you one for free if you pm me name and postage details.

Dave

 

[buffalobrewer]

nobody has mentioned thermometers yet. have you checked them to make sure they are not way off?

 

[rocketman768]

My sanitizer is Iodophor, and yes it is properly mixed. This is not infection. My stout turns out drinkable but everything else is awful.

What kind of off flavors would too low or too high of a pH level cause? I am thinking about getting some good test strips and 5.2 stabilizer.

And has anyone ever had problems with crushed grains from Northern Brewer?

I know you just "know" that this isn't an infection, but when someone tells me they have an off-flavor in every single one of their beers starting from a specific point in time, I think there's a 90% chance you have bacteria hiding somewhere in your equipment.

Now, you mentioned buttery flavor and slick feel, which is indicative of excessive diacetyl. Since I suspect an infection, this is probably coming from Pediococcus damnosus or a type of Lactobacillus.

An easy way to tell is to grab a friend who makes good beer, use his, and only his equipment during your normal beer-making. Clean and sanitize his stuff just like you normally do to yours, and then make your beer as normal. If the beer comes out fine, you know you got little nasty microbes hiding in your lines or other equipment.

 

[Rhoobarb]

Nobody has mentioned it, but it is a cheap fix - new plastic tubing. Fixed the one infection I ever had. Also, does the beer taste okay when you sample it throughout the process, then - boom - at bottling/kegging it takes on this off-flavor?

 

[TheFlyingSparge]

Nobody has mentioned it, but it is a cheap fix - new plastic tubing. Fixed the one infection I ever had. Also, does the beer taste okay when you sample it throughout the process, then - boom - at bottling/kegging it takes on this off-flavor?

I agree w/Rhoobarb. Ran into this same problem recently myself. Had the same off flavor happening in everything. Messed up 3-4 batches. Got real frustrated. Somebody told me to change my tubing. Problem went away. Your issues sound like a replay of mine.

 

[Bobby_M]

That doesn't exactly explain why dark beers turn out ok unless it's a masking thing.

 

[JJDMusic]

I have already replaced my auto shiphon and hose.

The only other tubing is a non-high temp hose running from the mash tun which was also replaced and will soon be replaced again with high temp hose.

I clean everything in PBW right after brewing, and always make five gallons of iodophor mixed well with just one cap full, as per directions, to sanitize.

Here is what I am going to try...

Star San (to cut out the iodine theory)
pH test strips (to find out what my mash is)
5.2 (to correct if I need it)
High temp tubing from mash tun (just in case)

Any other ideas guys?

 

[pjj2ba]

My water is hard, and makes great dark beers. I have to treat it for lighter and more hop forward styles. If I don't treat the water for these, the bitterness is harsh and takes quite a while to mellow. This sounds different from what you are describing. High Alkalinity still may be part of the problem though.

What about the yeast? Have you been using the same yeast strain, or is this with multiple strains? I'm starting to think that some people are more sensitive to yeasty flavors in a beer. This could be either, they are better at detecting it, and or, they are not any more sensitive, they just don't like it, while others don't think it to be out of place. I don't like yeasty flavors in my beers (wheats and wits excluded of course). I believe a longer primary will lead to more subtle yeasty flavors. Also some yeast strains ferment more cleanly than others. I'd suggest you do a split batch and ferment with two different yeast and see if there is a difference. Use the one you've had the problem with and then a new one. I like White labs 036 Dusseldorf Alt - really clean. WLP 001 is very clean too

 

[JJDMusic]

All different yeasts. And no I do not like yeasty flavors in IPAs and English ales but they are fine in hefe and belgians.

 

[rocketman768]

I have already replaced my auto shiphon and hose.

The only other tubing is a non-high temp hose running from the mash tun which was also replaced and will soon be replaced again with high temp hose.

I clean everything in PBW right after brewing, and always make five gallons of iodophor mixed well with just one cap full, as per directions, to sanitize.

Here is what I am going to try...

Star San (to cut out the iodine theory)
pH test strips (to find out what my mash is)
5.2 (to correct if I need it)
High temp tubing from mash tun (just in case)

Any other ideas guys?

First, let me say you will be making some great beer by the time you get this off-flavor sorted out since you're scrutinizing every step of the process.

Could you outline exactly what happens after the wort comes off the boil? For example, the cooling process, the type and material of each piece of equipment involved, what kind of primary it goes into, exactly when you pitch, move primary into temp controlled area, blah blah ad nauseum in excruciating detail?

For that matter, and if you have the patience, what about your whole entire process?

 

[pjj2ba]

All different yeasts. And no I do not like yeasty flavors in IPAs and English ales but they are fine in hefe and belgians.

I'm with you, there's a time and place for yeasty flavors. Has anyone else had these beers and said the same thing? I'm suspicous that you are more in tune to the yeasty flavors than others. You still might want to try a really clean fermenting yeast. I've also found fermenting at the bottom of (or below) the temperature range for the yeast helps to minimize this. I would also advise racking to a secondary as soon as fermention slows down.

I don't want to open a kettle of worms, but I suspect you are tasting yeast autolysis. NO, not the nasty horrid autolysis that everyone has heard about and is why many claim autolysis is a bogeyman. I'm talking about the autolysis that is a normal part of the life cycle of a yeast in culture that produces a very mild yeasty and/or bready flavor in beer. Also, in wines aged on the lees like many US chardonnay and in most champagnes (except the really cheap, force carbed ones) you get the subtle yeasty/bready flavors (desireable). Try these and if see if you think the yeasty flavor is the same

 

[JJDMusic]

I start with measured amounts of bottled water and heat to my strike temp. Then add that to the mash tun(10 gallon cooler with stainless false bottom and fittings) and dough in slowly, usaully hitting my mark around 154.

Let sit for an hour and add a mash out around the 190s depends on grain amount, let sit at 170 for ten minutes. I then I drain completely to my kettle 8 gallon mega pot. I then batch sparge with about 2 gallons of water depends on grain amount at 170 for fifteen minutes, drain completely into kettle.

Put on burner and a good rolling boil without lid for 90 minutes adding hops per recipe. With 15 minutes left I add irish moss and immersion chiller to kettle. At flame out I connect all hoses and run chiller water through a per chiller sitting in ice, into a chiller, with my kettle soon placed in an ice bath. After cooled I autoshipon into my glass carboy, aerate with a drill fitting(stainless steel with plastic wings, New) and then pitch my starter or two packs of wyeast.

Fermentation in a chest freezer with johnson control set at 68. Bubble wrap on the other side on the probe bungied to the fermenter. Two weeks sitting then rack to secondary two weeks at ambient 72. then keg.

 

[JJDMusic]

Others have tasted this and cannot really place what it is. But they agree it is obvious and tastes bad

 

[Schnitzengiggle]

What type/brand of base grain are you using, and where do you get it?

 

[JJDMusic]

Rhar 2-row from Northern brewer crushed.

 

[enderwig]

Do you ferment in buckets? Following the same logic as the tubing, bacteria can hide in microscopic scratches in the plastic. If so, try replacing the bucket.