I have a couple questions on an upcoming brew

[jeramieb]

I have a couple questions on an upcoming brew. The questions are related to water chemistry and hop additions. I’ll be brewing Morebeer’s American Pale Ale II all grain kit. Here’s the details on the kit…

Grain Bill:
10lbs 2-Row
1.5lbs Crystal 15
0.5 lbs Honey Malt


Hops:
1oz Magnum (60 min)
2oz Cascade (5 min)
2oz Willamette (1 min)


I put all that into Beersmith and its showing the IBUs around 48 which seems a little high for an American Pale Ale. According to Beersmith an American Pale Ale IBU should be between 30-45.

So question #1

Should I back some of the hops in order to bring the IBU down or just go with it? My guess is this is probably going to be a preference type thing but since I’ve not brewed this beer before I have no frame of reference.



Now onto the water chemistry question…


I was looking at different water profiles on the Brewer’s Friend website and I was intrigued by the Light Colored and Hoppy profile. For this brew I was thinking about starting with RO water from the grocery store (it’s fairly cheap at Publix here… $1.50/5gal). I assume this is the mineral equivalent of starting with distilled water? Or am I mistaken? That being said… I plugged distilled water in as my Base water Profile in Beersmith and chose the new "Light Colored Hoppy" water profile I created (based on the Brewer’s Friend site) as the destination profile and clicked “Calculate Best Additions”. This is what it gave me for additions…


4.2g Gypsum (CaSO4)
1.3g Table Salt (NaCl)
4.9g Epsom Salt (MgSO4)
0.6g Calcium Chloride (CaCl)

Which would being my water profile to the following:

Ca 36.4
Mg 15.5
Na 16.5
SO4 137
Cl 34.7
HCO3 0
(corrected because I read the software wrong)



Now this is all Greek to me. I might as well be reading Ancient sand script to be honest. I’ve done a lot of reading on water chemistry and it still seems to elude me thus far.

And question #2

Assuming I’m understanding everything correctly I’ve stated so far, for these water additions… Can I just bring this information into my local LHBS and they will be able to give me what I need?


Any help would be appreciated in this. Just remember to speak to me like I’m a first grader so I can understand. :cross: Thanks.

 

[LandoLincoln]

Your IBU's will vary due to the hops that you get from the store being different in alpha acid %. Unless you already have the hops and you changed Beersmith accordingly.

48 IBU's isn't a crazy amount of bitterness, but if you want something more mellow, yeah, go ahead and reduce the amount of bittering hops.

Yes, your LHBS should be able to sell you small containers of CaCl and gypsum. Buy the table salt and epsom salt from your local grocery store.

 

[McKnuckle]

My opinion: Don't bother adding table salt. Sodium can be left at zero. Of course, a very small number like 10 ppm should be innocuous (if you insist).

Buy powdered gypsum and calcium chloride from the LHBS, and Epsom from the grocery. Treat your distilled or RO water as noted. The only caveat is that you need a scale that can resolve fractional gram measurements; this one works for me:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012N1NAA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

 

[SnakeRidge]

I'm no water expert, but something in your calculations seems wrong. If you add 4.9g of MgSO4, you're going to have more than 5ppm Mg. Epsum salt is going to become Mg+ and SO4- in water, so for every molecule of MgSO4 you add, you're getting one Mg and one SO4.

Assuming that about half of your SO4 (at 150ppm) is coming from the Epsum, then I would expect that Mg number to be closer to 75ppm, which is a lot of Mg. Studies have shown that malt supplies as much Mg as the yeast need, so no additional Mg need be provided. The other levels look good, especially the Ca.

 

[jeramieb]

I'm no water expert, but something in your calculations seems wrong. If you add 4.9g of MgSO4, you're going to have more than 5ppm Mg. Epsum salt is going to become Mg+ and SO4- in water, so for every molecule of MgSO4 you add, you're getting one Mg and one SO4.

Assuming that about half of your SO4 (at 150ppm) is coming from the Epsum, then I would expect that Mg number to be closer to 75ppm, which is a lot of Mg. Studies have shown that malt supplies as much Mg as the yeast need, so no additional Mg need be provided. The other levels look good, especially the Ca.

Actually you are correct. I read the software wrong

This is what the water would end up being AFTER the additions Beersmith recommended...

Ca 36.4
Mg 15.5
Na 16.5
SO4 137
Cl 34.7
HCO3 0


Sorry about that. Rookie mistake

 

[jeramieb]

Your IBU's will vary due to the hops that you get from the store being different in alpha acid %. Unless you already have the hops and you changed Beersmith accordingly.

Thanks for verifying my initial thoughts. I think for this go 'round I will keep it "as advertised" in the initial recipe. I can always change it in the next batch.

 

[jeramieb]

My opinion: Don't bother adding table salt. Sodium can be left at zero. Of course, a very small number like 10 ppm should be innocuous (if you insist).

Good to know. I'll keep that in mind.

The only caveat is that you need a scale that can resolve fractional gram measurements; this one works for me:

http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0012N1NAA/ref=oh_aui_detailpage_o03_s00?ie=UTF8&psc=1

I'm pretty sure I have that covered but I will double check tonight. If not, that's a great price! Thanks.

 

[Yooper]

Actually you are correct. I read the software wrong

This is what the water would end up being AFTER the additions Beersmith recommended...

Ca 36.4
Mg 15.5
Na 16.5
SO4 137
Cl 34.7
HCO3 0


Sorry about that. Rookie mistake

That's ok- but you don't need the epsom salts and I'd bring the calcium up to 50 ppm, so I'd ditch the epsom salts and use gypsum to get the calcium to 50 ppm and leave out the table salt as well. Less is more- it really does apply to adding salts to water.

The important thing here, though, is NOT those ions. The important thing is mash pH. While you're in the brewing calculator and looking at the water part, look at the predicted mash pH. You want it to be right about 5.4. See what that is, using only the RO water and the gypsum and calcium chloride. That's the important thing! You may need some acid in the form of lactic acid or phosphoric acid, or some acidulated malt, to get there.

 

[jeramieb]

It looks like I may have another rookie mistake under my belt. I guess its better to get them out of the way BEFORE brew day. Anyway...

I checked my numbers in Beersmith against Brewer's Friends Mash Chemistry and Brewing Water Calculator (glad I did too). It looks like I had the initial numbers wrong in Beersmith. After redoing the number (correctly this time) I came up with the following additions per Beersmith and Brewer's Friend...


7.4g Gypsum (CaSO4)
0.8g Table Salt (NaCl) - which you are saying I don't need?
1.5g Epsom Salt (MgSO4)
2.2g Calcium Chloride (CaCO3)

Which brings my water profile to...

Ca - 74.7
Mg - 4.6
Na - 9.8
SO4 - 150.1
Cl - 50.1
HCO3 - 0.2


How's that look?


Also... I checked Brewer's Friend and with this water profile it looks like my Mash pH would be in the area of 5.30.

 

[SnakeRidge]

I only add Gypsum, Calcium Chloride, and Table Salt. You don't need the epsum salt, but it's not hurting anything with Mg that low. I use the CaSO4 and CaCl2 to get my Ca+ levels up to about 75. My numbers and amounts look very similar to what you've calculated. The point that Yooper was making is that all of these ions have an effect on mash pH and that is the most important aspect of adjusting your water chemistery.

For right now, though, you are adding similar amounts to what I add to my very soft water and my pH stays in a good range. You've got more reading to do, it took me a while to get my head around all this and I work as a biochemist.

https://sites.google.com/site/brunwater/water-knowledge

And there is a sticky on here somewhere that is a good read.

 

[McKnuckle]

Both the profile and the pH look good for a hoppy, light colored beer. I agree with Yooper that less is more with water adjustments.

 

[jeramieb]

You've got more reading to do, it took me a while to get my head around all this and I work as a biochemist.

Oh Great

 

[SnakeRidge]

Oh Great

Well, I didn't say I was a very good chemist.