I can't Brew All Grain...
- Thread starter GweedoeBrew
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powderbock
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You don't need to go to a smaller set up. I've been using the same size cooler for my 5 gallon batches and they come out just fine.
I may have missed it in the thread but are you using a copper manifold or SS braid in your mash tun? If not what are you using.
Do you collect the wort in the same vessel you boil your extract brews in?
What do you use to get it from your cooler to your boiling vessel. Its got to be something in these few steps prior to boiling, as long as the steps for all grain and extract are the same once it hits the boiling vessel.
BTW I batch sparge, have never had a problem, and don't have to check the Ph.
I may have missed it in the thread but are you using a copper manifold or SS braid in your mash tun? If not what are you using.
Do you collect the wort in the same vessel you boil your extract brews in?
What do you use to get it from your cooler to your boiling vessel. Its got to be something in these few steps prior to boiling, as long as the steps for all grain and extract are the same once it hits the boiling vessel.
BTW I batch sparge, have never had a problem, and don't have to check the Ph.
hjherbenson
Active Member
Yes. Even if you mash for over an hour and your temps are right on conversion may not be complete. I always check now
Ryno
Well-Known Member
Try a carbon inline water filter. You can get them at Wally World or Homedepot for around 30 bucks. Made a huge difference in my beer. Unless your water really sucks I dont think you need to spend too much. I've even used it on a 50' garden hose in the summer and it takes that nasty plastic smell and taste away....still made great beer. Just go slow with the flow. Just a thought.
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GweedoeBrew
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I have a SS braid... Brass fitting from Home depot...
I have a Silicone Hose ( http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_59_549&products_id=10014 ) that I use to get the beer from the Mash Tun to the my Boil pot (which is the same one that I use for Extract).....
I agree that it has to be in the first steps before boil. Here is a quick overview of how I have been brewing...
1. Heat 1.25 qt of water per lb of grain to 175 degree.
2. Put water in Mash tun and close for 15 minutes.
3. add the grains (I have a mill, but 3 out 5 batches I ordered pre milled) to the mash tun and stir until I get to 154ish
4. close my Mash tun. Open it every 15 min to take temp reading (has been holding the temp really good usually drop only 1 or 2 degress in 60 minutes)
5. At 45 minutes I heat my Sparge water to 175 degrees (I use Beer Smith and it usually tells me to add about 3.5 - 4.5 gallon to sparge, but my yield have been closer to 5.25 gals, but this is probably cause I don't have Beersmith calibrated for my boil off)
6. at 60 mins...I run off my first runnings. I have a 2 qt pitcher that I do my run off into... I am usually doing about 4 qt before I put the hose into the kettle.
7. After I am done running off, I dump in my Sparge water... stir... and close the lid for 15 mins....
8. Run off my sparge running same proceedure of about 4 qts before I stop getting particles it in and it looks fairly clear...
9. Run it into my kettle... Been ending up with about 6.5 gallon (which is a little high I think that it needs to be closer to 6 or 6.25 for my boil off..
10. Do a 60 minute boil... (basically from here is the same as my extract) and add hops per recipe..
11. 5 minutes left in boil I put in my chiller.... and it takes me about 10 or 15 (tops) to chill to about 75 or 80....
12. Take my pot inside... I have a spout on it... and run it through a mesh strainer (it does work great to help aerate).... (obvisouly my strainer, funnel, carboy, hoses for spout, etc... are or have been in sanitizer for at least 30 minutes...
11. I shake my bottle after I pitch the yeast... put my airlock or blow off on... store at 65 to 70 degrees... and it does its thing...
Anything jump out at you in this... any questions to clarify my procedures?
Sounds frustrating... hope you find a fix for this soon!
I had a few extra thoughts to all the great suggestions already offered here.
You said that you squeeze the mash grains with your paddle to get the wort out. I used to do that, and would sometimes get bitter & astringent off-flavors. Not cidery, but I would *not* recommend squeezing your grains. That can put some undesirable flavors form the grain husks into your wort.
Also, it sounds like you have an identical brew techique post boil in both extract & all-grain. So, it has to be something with the mash.
Mash ph is an important aspect of all-grain. John Palmer's online book has a great chapter on it. If your local water is high in alkalinity, you may have a high mash PH, which would produce some bad flavors during the mash. You would not see this in the extract process, as there are no grains. (and partial mash is a lot less grain to be effected).
If you are using tap water, you should invest in a $16 water analysis from a place like Ward Lab's... the W-6 test should get you the details you need. ( and you can request a free sample kit form them, so no muss/fuss with finding a good container!)
Instead of that, you could also try buying bottled 'drinking water' from the store for your brew water. Do not use purified or distilled. You want 'drinking water' becuase it has some mineral content still in it. I used those for my first 5 batches of AG and had no mash-ph issues.
Another work around is to pick a recipe with more roasted malts in it. Just like Dublin had to brew dark beers like Guiness stout because of the hard water, your tap water may be too hard for lighter beers. You could give a good porter or stout a try, and see if you fair better.
Good luck, and keep at it. When you get your first AG batch of tasty beer .. you will not regret the pain of the journey to get there.
--LexusChris
p.s. my first 2 AG batches were less then stellar .. #1 was barely drinkable. #2 was moderately better. You will get there..
I had a few extra thoughts to all the great suggestions already offered here.
You said that you squeeze the mash grains with your paddle to get the wort out. I used to do that, and would sometimes get bitter & astringent off-flavors. Not cidery, but I would *not* recommend squeezing your grains. That can put some undesirable flavors form the grain husks into your wort.
Also, it sounds like you have an identical brew techique post boil in both extract & all-grain. So, it has to be something with the mash.
Mash ph is an important aspect of all-grain. John Palmer's online book has a great chapter on it. If your local water is high in alkalinity, you may have a high mash PH, which would produce some bad flavors during the mash. You would not see this in the extract process, as there are no grains. (and partial mash is a lot less grain to be effected).
If you are using tap water, you should invest in a $16 water analysis from a place like Ward Lab's... the W-6 test should get you the details you need. ( and you can request a free sample kit form them, so no muss/fuss with finding a good container!)
Instead of that, you could also try buying bottled 'drinking water' from the store for your brew water. Do not use purified or distilled. You want 'drinking water' becuase it has some mineral content still in it. I used those for my first 5 batches of AG and had no mash-ph issues.
Another work around is to pick a recipe with more roasted malts in it. Just like Dublin had to brew dark beers like Guiness stout because of the hard water, your tap water may be too hard for lighter beers. You could give a good porter or stout a try, and see if you fair better.
Good luck, and keep at it. When you get your first AG batch of tasty beer .. you will not regret the pain of the journey to get there.
--LexusChris
p.s. my first 2 AG batches were less then stellar .. #1 was barely drinkable. #2 was moderately better. You will get there..
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powderbock
Well-Known Member
Couple more questions. What do you use as your hot liquor tank, what do you collect your first runnings in. I'm wondering if your using something metal other than SS and copper that may affect the flavor. I'm not sure if brass is a problem or not with flavor as you mentioned it with your SS braid. If you use an enamel pot like I do as your hot liquor tank, if theres a chip in it exposing the metal underneath I've heard this can cause a problem. Same with the container you use to collect first running and volaroff (?sp). I use a glass pitcher. I assume you use the same water for your extract so I wouldn't think that would be the problem. Anyway, I hope you find out the problem.
sonetlumiere85
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Something I noticed - are you batch sparging with 2 additions after your initial runnings are drawn off? You indicated that you were just "mashing" and then "topping up" to achieve 6 gallons in the boil kettle. It may be that you're just watering down too much. Go by specific gravity readings, not hard and fast water addition rules.
JuanMoore
Getting the banned back together
The thing that jumps out to me is that you still don't know what kind of water you're using. If your water comes from a municipal source, a phone call should be all it takes to find out what kind of water you're dealing with. If it comes from a well, spend the $16 and send it in for testing. Even if the water tastes good and works fine for extract brewing, it may have ion levels that are having an adverse effect on the enzyme activity during the mash, and extracting undesireable compunds from the husks. Water chemistry has a very real effect on what happens during the mash, and on the final flavor of an all grain brew.
If you aren't easily able to find out what's in your water, you could do as suggested and try a batch using bottled spring water. Most bottled spring water has ion levels that are at least close to being within range for most beer styles.
Your sparge water is only heated to 175F? Bump that up to 185F, you're looking to get your grain bed to 170F. Don't trust Beersmith on the sparge temp! Not sure that'll help with the original problem, but still.
Edit: NM, looks like I already said that in this thread
Edit: NM, looks like I already said that in this thread
batfishdog37
Well-Known Member
Didn't see this mentioned yet. Make sure your primary/secondary are cleaned AND sanitized. I had a few issues in a row with "infections" and have come to believe it was an infection in my primary that I didn't sanitize properly so a couple of beers had the same issues right after primary. Something else to keep in mind. Do you sanitize your fermenters?
"After I am done running off, I dump in my Sparge water... stir... and close the lid for 15 mins"
I was under the impression that if you stir for the final rinse (sparge) you disturb the grain bed and those things you dont want in your wort...end up in your wort????
Am I way off on this one?
I was under the impression that if you stir for the final rinse (sparge) you disturb the grain bed and those things you dont want in your wort...end up in your wort????
Am I way off on this one?
THIS^^^^^^^^^^^^
I'm coming back to water on this one. I would go up to Target or something, and buy some spring water (I use Ice Mountain). I would then make a very small batch (~1 gallon) using a simple SMaSH recipe, like the following.
1 Gallon Recipe
2 lbs Pale Malt
.5 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 60 Min
.25 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 5 Min
Nottingham Ale Yeast
Another thing I would do, since you are not having this issue with your extract brews, try using only your extract equipment for the brewing process. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-extract-brewing-equipment-pics-142648/ (sorry, I hate pimping my own posts).
This will get you a cheap recipe, that has a simple flavor profile (so it'll be easier to diagnose) that you can repeat multiple times as you begin to eliminate the possible issues. Then, if you have to dump a batch, it won't be that big of a deal, because each batch will only cost a couple of bucks to make.
1 Gallon Recipe
2 lbs Pale Malt
.5 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 60 Min
.25 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 5 Min
Nottingham Ale Yeast
Another thing I would do, since you are not having this issue with your extract brews, try using only your extract equipment for the brewing process. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-extract-brewing-equipment-pics-142648/ (sorry, I hate pimping my own posts).
This will get you a cheap recipe, that has a simple flavor profile (so it'll be easier to diagnose) that you can repeat multiple times as you begin to eliminate the possible issues. Then, if you have to dump a batch, it won't be that big of a deal, because each batch will only cost a couple of bucks to make.
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GweedoeBrew
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Ok... water water water...
I will brew a basic small batch and report back....
I will brew a basic small batch and report back....
Beavdowg
Well-Known Member
Do you use your immersion chiller when you do your extract batches?
so on the water thing do you get it from the city if so call you water distributer have them email you the water report (ALL FREE!) and post it on here.... soo simple and would give everyone follwing this thread a quick look at your water. If its from a well then nm
And if you are using well water you may wish to send away a sample for testing. I think there are some mail-order testing services that will give you a pretty good profiled report that are in the 20-30 dollar range. Prolly worth it if you're drinking that water anyways.
tannin extraction has to do with temp AND the pH. if batch sparging, it really shouldn't be a big issue.
to learn more about your water, call an aquarium/fish store (not petco, petsmart, etc). ask them about the local tap water, pH, carbonate hardness, etc.
you might learn a lot about the possible 'bad water'
Location: South of Boston, By way of West Virginia!!
What are you using west virginia well water?? or are you just south of Boston using municiple water?
try brewing a darker beer the next batch and use campden tablets in your brewing water
I'd think you would have off flavors in the extract versions if your water was that bad...
What are you using west virginia well water?? or are you just south of Boston using municiple water?
try brewing a darker beer the next batch and use campden tablets in your brewing water
I'd think you would have off flavors in the extract versions if your water was that bad...
Beavdowg
Well-Known Member
The reason I asked about using your immersion chiller for your extract batches also is because you stated you put your chiller in for the last 5 minutes of the boil. That may not be enough time. Most people will recommend putting your chiller in the wort for the last 15 minutes of the boil for proper sanitization.
Just a thought.
pH is a far more important factor than temp. What about a decoction mash where you boil the grain? Obviously above 170, but the pH is low enough that it isn't a problem.
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GweedoeBrew
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OK... who is ready for a twist (and probably an "I told you so" from Denny).... So I spoke above about my last batch (Belgium Wit) smelling of the "Cidery, Rancid" smell like a few other all grain batches I did...
Well I brewed it back in Sept. I let it sit in the carboy at or around 65 degrees... I had my Dad (also a homebrewer) over last week and he took a sniff of the carboy and thought it smelled good... So we Kegged it on the 27th... and starting drinking it on the 30th!!! Tasted good (not my best beer... but not bad!) No Cider flavor or smell... I don't know... I am going to try All Grain again in the spring... might use bottled water or get a filtration system for my water...
But anyway... I guess sitting in the carboy for 3 months did the trick!!
Well I brewed it back in Sept. I let it sit in the carboy at or around 65 degrees... I had my Dad (also a homebrewer) over last week and he took a sniff of the carboy and thought it smelled good... So we Kegged it on the 27th... and starting drinking it on the 30th!!! Tasted good (not my best beer... but not bad!) No Cider flavor or smell... I don't know... I am going to try All Grain again in the spring... might use bottled water or get a filtration system for my water...
But anyway... I guess sitting in the carboy for 3 months did the trick!!
Not necessarily. Centennial Blonde, a popular 1st all grain recipe only needs about 2 weeks between primary and secondary.
SpanishCastleAle
Well-Known Member
That's just not true. Beer can have light infections that only make it taste anywhere from 'not great' to 'HORRIBLE'. Sometimes off flavors are just mild infections.
However I agree that we shouldn't just assume infection. But on the other hand, all-grain brewing introduces a lot of lactic acid bacteria (in the grain/dust) so it is something to keep in mind imo. I carry my mash tun out to the garage when I dump the grain in just to keep the dust out of the house.
Gweedoebrew, did you calibrate your thermometer as mentioned before? What is the mouthfeel like in these cidery brews? Is it thin and watery or does it have good body?
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I can't cook Souffle'.
jjones17
Well-Known Member
I think that you just need a new carboy... sorry If I am late on this one, but I have a carboy that go cidery from a brew no one of my batches where I pitched the yeast in too warm, and it the smell never went away.
I also think that cidery implies beer that is too young. IMO you should never dump a beer unless it is obvious infection. Cidery is usually a taste that will mellow out/dissapear in time.
I bet your cidery taste/smell remains after you switch to extract.
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