I can't Brew All Grain...

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GweedoeBrew said:
Well I brewed Saturday... First in the morning I cleaned everything really well... PBWed everything.... and rinsed it out... I cleaned it a lot... and then cleaned everything some more...

So I brewed my Normal Denny Conn batch sparge method... nothing really suprising except that I can out with too much wort and ended with 5.5 gals of wort... I adjusted in Beer Smith and showed an efficiency of 65%

The yeast kicked in within the first 24 hours. So we will see... I will give it a few (4 at least) weeks... and rack it to the secondary... and then go from there. I just hope that I don't have any issues...

BLACKWATER - what is hot side Aeration... and what could the problem be... what is causing it?? What happens when you have hot side aeration??
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You mentioned that you cleaned everything with PBW and cleaned again and again. That's great but you didn't mention that you SANITIZED anything. There's a huge difference between cleaning your equipment and sanitizing it. PBW and Oxyclean clean very well but they are NOT a sanitizing agent. You need to be using Starsan, or Iodophore, or bleach to sanitize any equipment that is coming into contact with your wort after the boil, this includes any hoses, carboys, airlocks, etc. If you're not sanitizing your equipment this could be the source of your problems.

If you already know this or are already doing this and just didn't mention it than I take it all back. I just saw an obvious possible culprit for your problem.

Good luck!:tank:
 
what kind of thermomerter are you using could it possibly be way off giving you some messed up temps?

also i remmeber you saying but to double check your using tap water not distilled water correct?

I have been having the same problem with my brews but most of them I have fig out like bottling to soon, making my own recipie (i suck at it as of now) and adding stuff i didnt like and squeezing my grain bag possibly releasing tannins.

Could you maybe be getting alot of grain transfer to the boil kettle? does the all grain have a bigger turb that the extract

I dont know the answers to most of these but maybe bringing up some ideas could give someone more experienced that AH HA! moment I feel for you though man all grain is SOOO much cheaper
 
I've heard that cidery flavors can sometimes be traced to rampant ellipsis use.

What equipment is different between your AG and extract process?
 
This really doesn't sound like sanitation problems , imho. It sounds like tannin or water issues. I'm temped to think that Ekjons right, what type thermometer do you have? Have you checked its calibration? If its just off by just 5 degrees it could wreck your brew.

Also, check out this video, I know it really helped me out when I made the jump (I'm still relatively new to AG myself)

 
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Just thought of something else to check. Did all of these beer batches use malt from the same source? IOW, could the malt itself have spoiled, become moldy or gone rancid maybe? The Sherlock Holmes in me says to look for variables common to all of the batches. I think you've done what you could on the equipment side. Maybe it's time to look closer at the ingredients. Obviously, the hops should also be scrutinized for mold or any kind of spoilage. I'm just guessing, but there has to be a cause and also a solution.
 
...yes... sanitize everything post boil...

I am using tap water to brew... and I am not doing anything to it...I don't check the PH or anything.. could that be the issue? I use the same water for extract and have no issues... but I know the PH is really more of an issue with the Mash. I am temped to try some of that PH stabilizer if (when) i brew All Grain again.

...I will check my thermometer... I have a digital one that I got from Target, but I never have really checked to see if it is right... I will try that too...

...I am just baffled at what I am doing wrong...

...stop making fun of my... I type like I think... with big long pauses to...form my thoughts...

I use a 70qt Coleman Cooler. I will say that one of my concerns is that it is too big of a cooler for my 5 gallon batch sizes and maybe I should get a smaller cooler, but I only figured that would help with my efficiency, but not really have any effect on this issue.

I will say that this has to have something to do with my Mashing Process... so i need to figure out what it is that is causing this, I want to brew All Grain... I am just tired of having undrinkable beers everything I brew All Grain...
 
You say you use the "Denny Conn batch sparge method."

Are you vorlaufing (recirculating) the wort enough prior to releasing to the kettle? Some worts won't be clear, but there should be no husk particles at all. Zero. Nada.

Take us through your vorlaufing procedure - how many cups do you run before you deem it clear? How far do you crack the valve? etc.
 
is the thermo one with a probe on a long wire if so i heard horror stories about how they work fantastic for awhile then all of a sudden without any warning are just way off like 10 to 50 deg.
 
The word "infection" should not even be tossed around in this discussion. If you had an infection your beer would smell like death and would taste HORRIBLE. A "cidery" or "off" flavor is not what you'd get from an infection.
 
ReeseAllen said:
The word "infection" should not even be tossed around in this discussion. If you had an infection your beer would smell like death and would taste HORRIBLE. A "cidery" or "off" flavor is not what you'd get from an infection.
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Not necessarily. Sometimes all you notice is a little sourness.

It takes a while for lacto infected beer, especially if its infected after fermentation to get real bad.
 
This guy has said twice he's using tap water, done no modification or testing to it, and asked if that could be a problem. Noone has answered... yes the tap water could be a problem. I don't know what problem it would cause, but there could definitely be a problem there. I also notice you're tryign all of these different beer styles. I would suggest you do somethign really simple like a SMaSH in small batches until you figure out your problem.
 
Denny said:
If you're judging a beer that hasn't finished, you may be misjudging....
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I wish... How long do you think that I should be fermenting? Are the Fermentation times longer with All Grain than extract? I guess the strange thing to me is that all of my All Grain Batch Sparges brews have had the exact same issues and smell... I would think it was something non-mash related if it was only one of them... But I have done a ESB, APA, Hefe, Oct-fest, & Belgian White and they all have the same issue... That is what I can't figure out... It is something to do with my Mashing process or equipment... Could my 70qt be too big for 5 gallon batches??? Is my thermometer readying 150 when it is really 175 (I don't think so)??? I just can't figure it out...

You know what the funny thing is... that it is probably something really simple and stupid.... I am actually considering buying a new Mash Tun setup... and trying my same process in new equipment... something (maybe my ego) is telling me that it is equipment based and not procedure based...

(can you tell this is eating away at me??)
 
GweedoeBrew said:
I wish... How long do you think that I should be fermenting? Are the Fermentation times longer with All Grain than extract? I guess the strange thing to me is that all of my All Grain Batch Sparges brews have had the exact same issues and smell... I would think it was something non-mash related if it was only one of them... But I have done a ESB, APA, Hefe, Oct-fest, & Belgian White and they all have the same issue... That is what I can't figure out... It is something to do with my Mashing process or equipment... Could my 70qt be too big for 5 gallon batches??? Is my thermometer readying 150 when it is really 175 (I don't think so)??? I just can't figure it out...

You know what the funny thing is... that it is probably something really simple and stupid.... I am actually considering buying a new Mash Tun setup... and trying my same process in new equipment... something (maybe my ego) is telling me that it is equipment based and not procedure based...

(can you tell this is eating away at me??)
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1) Have your water tested (you can send it in for 15-20 bucks I think and get a basic profile)
2) SANITIZE (at least you some star san, man! PBW don't sanitize)
3) Test your damn thermometer.

There are many good suggestions in this thread and you don't seem to be heeding any of them
 
i dont think size of the mash tun would have any effect at all why would it matter it isnt like there is any affect of surface area or anything its just soaking some grain and draining the liquid. make sure the temp is correct after the water is added to the grain and as it sits also ive seen people when they sparge just "say" throw some hot water in but if it is too hot you are gonna get tannis and off flavors
 
I'm fairly new to this, so I probably don't know what I'm talking about, but here are my two cents anyways.

As others have mentioned, you need to calibrate your thermometer at both freezing and boiling temperatures, as just a few degrees difference can have a huge effect on the mash.

Also as mentioned, if your water chemistry is off it could cause all sorts of problems with the mash, the most common being tannin extraction which would lead to an astringent taste. A little astringency coupled with a little excess acetaldehyde would taste and smell very cidery. I highly reccomend looking at a water report ASAP.

Hot side aeration happens anytime the wort gets oxygenated or aerated when it is above 80 degrrees. This coul be caused by splashing while doughing in, or pouring / splashing during transfer. It can lead to long term flavor stabilty problems and can result in sherry like or cardboard flavors. While sherry isn't exactly the flavor you describe, it could be something to consider.

The only thought I had that hasn't been mentioned already is proper oxygenation after cooling. If you haven't been doing full boils with your extract batches, you might be boiling out all of the oxygen, and not aerating enough on the AG batches. Under aerated wort can cause some yeasts to stop working before thay have a chance to convert all of the acetalehydes, which can have a cidery taste. Are your extract batches full boil, and how are you aerating?
 
one way i found gets pretty good aeration is to run the wort through a fine mesh screen which basically breaks the wort up into very small droplets and allows for alot of oxygen to be pulled with it
 
Randar said:
1) Have your water tested (you can send it in for 15-20 bucks I think and get a basic profile)
2) SANITIZE (at least you some star san, man! PBW don't sanitize)
3) Test your damn thermometer.

There are many good suggestions in this thread and you don't seem to be heeding any of them
Click to expand...

OK so water may be the issue... I guess that my extract batches don't matter what my water is like as much as All Grain?

2... Do you sanitize your Mash Tun and Boil Kettle... That is where my issue is... I obviously Sanitize everything post boil...




...Well I think that I am going to take a break from All Grain for the winter... and just try again in the spring.... and just churn out beer that makes me feel good...
 
Just finished reading thru this, ONE thing has not been addressed...You're just beginning with AG do you do a conversion check before sparging? I had this problem when I went AG some of my worts did not fully convert and whala bad beer.
 
You don't need to go to a smaller set up. I've been using the same size cooler for my 5 gallon batches and they come out just fine.
I may have missed it in the thread but are you using a copper manifold or SS braid in your mash tun? If not what are you using.
Do you collect the wort in the same vessel you boil your extract brews in?
What do you use to get it from your cooler to your boiling vessel. Its got to be something in these few steps prior to boiling, as long as the steps for all grain and extract are the same once it hits the boiling vessel.
BTW I batch sparge, have never had a problem, and don't have to check the Ph.
 
Try a carbon inline water filter. You can get them at Wally World or Homedepot for around 30 bucks. Made a huge difference in my beer. Unless your water really sucks I dont think you need to spend too much. I've even used it on a 50' garden hose in the summer and it takes that nasty plastic smell and taste away....still made great beer. Just go slow with the flow. Just a thought.
 
powderbock said:
You don't need to go to a smaller set up. I've been using the same size cooler for my 5 gallon batches and they come out just fine.
I may have missed it in the thread but are you using a copper manifold or SS braid in your mash tun? If not what are you using.
Do you collect the wort in the same vessel you boil your extract brews in?
What do you use to get it from your cooler to your boiling vessel. Its got to be something in these few steps prior to boiling, as long as the steps for all grain and extract are the same once it hits the boiling vessel.
BTW I batch sparge, have never had a problem, and don't have to check the Ph.
Click to expand...

I have a SS braid... Brass fitting from Home depot...

I have a Silicone Hose ( http://www.austinhomebrew.com/product_info.php?cPath=178_59_549&products_id=10014 ) that I use to get the beer from the Mash Tun to the my Boil pot (which is the same one that I use for Extract).....

I agree that it has to be in the first steps before boil. Here is a quick overview of how I have been brewing...

1. Heat 1.25 qt of water per lb of grain to 175 degree.

2. Put water in Mash tun and close for 15 minutes.

3. add the grains (I have a mill, but 3 out 5 batches I ordered pre milled) to the mash tun and stir until I get to 154ish

4. close my Mash tun. Open it every 15 min to take temp reading (has been holding the temp really good usually drop only 1 or 2 degress in 60 minutes)

5. At 45 minutes I heat my Sparge water to 175 degrees (I use Beer Smith and it usually tells me to add about 3.5 - 4.5 gallon to sparge, but my yield have been closer to 5.25 gals, but this is probably cause I don't have Beersmith calibrated for my boil off)

6. at 60 mins...I run off my first runnings. I have a 2 qt pitcher that I do my run off into... I am usually doing about 4 qt before I put the hose into the kettle.

7. After I am done running off, I dump in my Sparge water... stir... and close the lid for 15 mins....

8. Run off my sparge running same proceedure of about 4 qts before I stop getting particles it in and it looks fairly clear...

9. Run it into my kettle... Been ending up with about 6.5 gallon (which is a little high I think that it needs to be closer to 6 or 6.25 for my boil off..

10. Do a 60 minute boil... (basically from here is the same as my extract) and add hops per recipe..

11. 5 minutes left in boil I put in my chiller.... and it takes me about 10 or 15 (tops) to chill to about 75 or 80....

12. Take my pot inside... I have a spout on it... and run it through a mesh strainer (it does work great to help aerate).... (obvisouly my strainer, funnel, carboy, hoses for spout, etc... are or have been in sanitizer for at least 30 minutes...

11. I shake my bottle after I pitch the yeast... put my airlock or blow off on... store at 65 to 70 degrees... and it does its thing...


Anything jump out at you in this... any questions to clarify my procedures?
 
Sounds frustrating... hope you find a fix for this soon!

I had a few extra thoughts to all the great suggestions already offered here.

You said that you squeeze the mash grains with your paddle to get the wort out. I used to do that, and would sometimes get bitter & astringent off-flavors. Not cidery, but I would *not* recommend squeezing your grains. That can put some undesirable flavors form the grain husks into your wort.

Also, it sounds like you have an identical brew techique post boil in both extract & all-grain. So, it has to be something with the mash.

Mash ph is an important aspect of all-grain. John Palmer's online book has a great chapter on it. If your local water is high in alkalinity, you may have a high mash PH, which would produce some bad flavors during the mash. You would not see this in the extract process, as there are no grains. (and partial mash is a lot less grain to be effected).

If you are using tap water, you should invest in a $16 water analysis from a place like Ward Lab's... the W-6 test should get you the details you need. ( and you can request a free sample kit form them, so no muss/fuss with finding a good container!)

Instead of that, you could also try buying bottled 'drinking water' from the store for your brew water. Do not use purified or distilled. You want 'drinking water' becuase it has some mineral content still in it. I used those for my first 5 batches of AG and had no mash-ph issues.

Another work around is to pick a recipe with more roasted malts in it. Just like Dublin had to brew dark beers like Guiness stout because of the hard water, your tap water may be too hard for lighter beers. You could give a good porter or stout a try, and see if you fair better.

Good luck, and keep at it. When you get your first AG batch of tasty beer .. you will not regret the pain of the journey to get there.
--LexusChris
p.s. my first 2 AG batches were less then stellar .. #1 was barely drinkable. #2 was moderately better. You will get there.. :)
 
Couple more questions. What do you use as your hot liquor tank, what do you collect your first runnings in. I'm wondering if your using something metal other than SS and copper that may affect the flavor. I'm not sure if brass is a problem or not with flavor as you mentioned it with your SS braid. If you use an enamel pot like I do as your hot liquor tank, if theres a chip in it exposing the metal underneath I've heard this can cause a problem. Same with the container you use to collect first running and volaroff (?sp). I use a glass pitcher. I assume you use the same water for your extract so I wouldn't think that would be the problem. Anyway, I hope you find out the problem.
 
Something I noticed - are you batch sparging with 2 additions after your initial runnings are drawn off? You indicated that you were just "mashing" and then "topping up" to achieve 6 gallons in the boil kettle. It may be that you're just watering down too much. Go by specific gravity readings, not hard and fast water addition rules.
 
GweedoeBrew said:
Anything jump out at you in this... any questions to clarify my procedures?
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The thing that jumps out to me is that you still don't know what kind of water you're using. If your water comes from a municipal source, a phone call should be all it takes to find out what kind of water you're dealing with. If it comes from a well, spend the $16 and send it in for testing. Even if the water tastes good and works fine for extract brewing, it may have ion levels that are having an adverse effect on the enzyme activity during the mash, and extracting undesireable compunds from the husks. Water chemistry has a very real effect on what happens during the mash, and on the final flavor of an all grain brew.

If you aren't easily able to find out what's in your water, you could do as suggested and try a batch using bottled spring water. Most bottled spring water has ion levels that are at least close to being within range for most beer styles.
 
Your sparge water is only heated to 175F? Bump that up to 185F, you're looking to get your grain bed to 170F. Don't trust Beersmith on the sparge temp! Not sure that'll help with the original problem, but still.

Edit: NM, looks like I already said that in this thread :mug:
 
Didn't see this mentioned yet. Make sure your primary/secondary are cleaned AND sanitized. I had a few issues in a row with "infections" and have come to believe it was an infection in my primary that I didn't sanitize properly so a couple of beers had the same issues right after primary. Something else to keep in mind. Do you sanitize your fermenters?
 
"After I am done running off, I dump in my Sparge water... stir... and close the lid for 15 mins"

I was under the impression that if you stir for the final rinse (sparge) you disturb the grain bed and those things you dont want in your wort...end up in your wort????

Am I way off on this one?
 
I'm coming back to water on this one. I would go up to Target or something, and buy some spring water (I use Ice Mountain). I would then make a very small batch (~1 gallon) using a simple SMaSH recipe, like the following.

1 Gallon Recipe
2 lbs Pale Malt
.5 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 60 Min
.25 oz Cascade (5.5% AA) 5 Min
Nottingham Ale Yeast

Another thing I would do, since you are not having this issue with your extract brews, try using only your extract equipment for the brewing process. https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f14/all-grain-brewing-extract-brewing-equipment-pics-142648/ (sorry, I hate pimping my own posts).

This will get you a cheap recipe, that has a simple flavor profile (so it'll be easier to diagnose) that you can repeat multiple times as you begin to eliminate the possible issues. Then, if you have to dump a batch, it won't be that big of a deal, because each batch will only cost a couple of bucks to make.
 
wont 170 be dangeriously close to tannin extracting? I am not saying your wrong but more asking for my own aid as i am new to all grain as well
 
so on the water thing do you get it from the city if so call you water distributer have them email you the water report (ALL FREE!) and post it on here.... soo simple and would give everyone follwing this thread a quick look at your water. If its from a well then nm
 
ekjohns said:
so on the water thing do you get it from the city if so call you water distributer have them email you the water report (ALL FREE!) and post it on here.... soo simple and would give everyone follwing this thread a quick look at your water. If its from a well then nm
Click to expand...

And if you are using well water you may wish to send away a sample for testing. I think there are some mail-order testing services that will give you a pretty good profiled report that are in the 20-30 dollar range. Prolly worth it if you're drinking that water anyways.
 
ekjohns said:
wont 170 be dangeriously close to tannin extracting? I am not saying your wrong but more asking for my own aid as i am new to all grain as well
Click to expand...

tannin extraction has to do with temp AND the pH. if batch sparging, it really shouldn't be a big issue.

to learn more about your water, call an aquarium/fish store (not petco, petsmart, etc). ask them about the local tap water, pH, carbonate hardness, etc.

you might learn a lot about the possible 'bad water'
 

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