I cannot force carbonate suddenly?

[jeebuscrisis]

I threw 30 PSI on a still mead my wife made for over a few weeks and it's not taking on CO2. I pressure checked the vessel and it's getting gas, but I don't understand it. I do 20 PSI on beers and I get a force carb within a week. Granted I had to shut all my other tank valves off just for the mead but I'm seriously confused.. the keg is getting gas and it's not leaking. What in the hell is happening here? I've been force carbing for over a decade and I've never had this issue. Anyone have any ideas what's happening?

Edit: I did take my tank to a Keller fire for a refill because Airgas couldn't swap my tank. Dude told me it was fine for beer since it is pure CO2.

 

[mashdar]

Is the keg filled so high there's very little surface area? CO2 diffusion rate depends on the surface area between gas and liquid.

It sounds like it's not getting the pressure you think it is. How did you check that it was getting gas?

 

[IAmPistolPete]

Also on the flip side, if there is a very large headspace make sure it's been purged. CO2 won't dissolve into the liquid if it's already full of ambient air.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Is the keg filled so high there's very little surface area? CO2 diffusion rate depends on the surface area between gas and liquid.

It sounds like it's not getting the pressure you think it is. How did you check that it was getting gas?

Edit: It is not overfilled as we have poured out of it enough it is clear of the gas post.

The keg is definitely getting pressure, I can purge pulling the PRV and hear the regulator providing gas. For a sanity check I put my spunding valve with pressure gauge on it to check and despite a 2 PSI difference between my CO2 regulator and the spunding pressure gauge that isn't enough to understand why it won't take on CO2. It's a sweet mead, but I wouldn't understand how that would make a difference? Generally, 20-30 PSI over the course of a few weeks would definitely provide carbonation in all scenarios. I'm really having a hard time understanding what in the heck is going on.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Also on the flip side, if there is a very large headspace make sure it's been purged. CO2 won't dissolve into the liquid if it's already full of ambient air.

Absolutely, I always purge just to make sure there isn't any O2 in the headspace just as a matter of course, but that is definitely a good point to make.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

While I don't really care for the process, I'm going to try the "shake and roll" method and see if I can't just blast it into solution. Clarity be damned!

Edit: "Shake shake shake" is getting gas into solution, but why the heck would sitting at 30PSI in the fridge over 3 weeks not provide carbonation?

I'm so confused on what is happening here.

 

[Skeeter686]

I assume that you're trying to force carbonate at a cool / cold temperature. I don't think I saw you mention the temperature, but at room temperature, 30 PSI wouldn't get you much carbonation.

I've force carbed my wife's meads a few times without problem, and at least one was certainly a very sweet mead, so I don't see why it wouldn't work for you.

 

[mac_1103]

at room temperature, 30 PSI wouldn't get you much carbonation.

30 PSI at 72F will get you 2.5 volumes. But you have to keep it at 30 PSI and it will take two weeks.

 

[mac_1103]

why the heck would sitting at 30PSI in the fridge over 3 weeks not provide carbonation?

It absolutely should provide carbonation. There has to be something else going on.

 

[Bramling Cross]

Are you sure you're putting gas on the right keg? Idiot here made that mistake on Friday night. I was thinking about pulling the poppet valve off the keg, then I noticed that my gas was hooked up to a different keg. I'd like to say that inebriation was to blame, but that was my first pour of the night. So that leaves me with garden variety stupidity as the only explanation for my behavior.

Now if you'll pardon me, there's a nice tasty dead fly laying on the window sill that I must attend to.

 

[DuncB]

Also on the flip side, if there is a very large headspace make sure it's been purged. CO2 won't dissolve into the liquid if it's already full of ambient air.

This is not true at all.

CO2 will equilibrate down its own gradient.
Doesn't matter if the headspace is full of a mixture of nitrogen and Oxygen, argon or whatever.

They will all equilibrate in the gas mix and in the liquid.

 

[day_trippr]

Doesn't matter if the headspace is full of a mixture of nitrogen and Oxygen, argon or whatever.

"Well, actually"...

If the keg headspace is occupied by gas that will not dissolve into the beer (let's say Nitrogen or Argon) THAT will in fact slow carbonation waaay down...

Cheers!

 

[mashdar]

"Well, actually"...

If the keg headspace is occupied by gas that will not dissolve into the beer (let's say Nitrogen or Argon) THAT will in fact slow carbonation waaay down...

Cheers!

It'll do more than that. The reducto ad absurdem example is what if the keg was already at 30psi of N2? No CO2 would enter the keg, and you'd get no carbonation.

A little harder to track is what happens if there's 29PSI N2? Then your regulator lets in 1psi of CO2 partial pressure to hit net 30psi. You only get 1psi worth of CO2!

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Are you sure you're putting gas on the right keg? Idiot here made that mistake on Friday night. I was thinking about pulling the poppet valve off the keg, then I noticed that my gas was hooked up to a different keg. I'd like to say that inebriation was to blame, but that was my first pour of the night. So that leaves me with garden variety stupidity as the only explanation for my behavior.

Now if you'll pardon me, there's a nice tasty dead fly laying on the window sill that I must attend to.

I am definitely sure the gas is on the right keg but that is definitely something I could see myself doing as well! lol Thanks for the laugh

 

[jeebuscrisis]

It absolutely should provide carbonation. There has to be something else going on.

So I read the other replies.. the only thing different is I recharged my tank at a keller fire extinguisher place.. the guy told me it was pure CO2 and I explained it was explicitly for carbonating beer and he said people do it all the time no problem. Today, I did the keg shake method for about 2 minutes at 20psi and sure enough it force carbed but with that noticeable carbonic acid bite so now I'll need it to settle out for a few days to taste again.

I'm wondering if it isn't a mix of nitrogen/co2 like your standard beer gas instead of pure CO2, but the guy told me it was all CO2 for what that is worth. Would that really stop force carbing at 30psi over three weeks under refrigeration if it was a beer gas mix, though?

 

[jeebuscrisis]

"Well, actually"...

If the keg headspace is occupied by gas that will not dissolve into the beer (let's say Nitrogen or Argon) THAT will in fact slow carbonation waaay down...

Cheers!

So this is where I think things get interesting. I'm wondering if when I refilled my CO2 tank at the fire extinguisher place they used a mix of nitrogen and CO2.. normally when I swap my tanks out I get food grade CO2 ... When I asked the guy he said it's definitely food grade and it was pure CO2, but this makes me think he refilled my CO2 tank with a beer mix instead of pure CO2. Would that be plausible?

Edit: Clarification - Normally I swap the tanks like for like at AirGas with food grade CO2, when I couldn't find any I went to a fire extinguisher place to refill the same tank. The only thing that has changed is that I had my tank refilled rather than swap it out completely for a new, food grade CO2 tank from AirGas. The fact it might be a beer mix gas instead of PURE CO2 is now what I think might be happening if this is true?

Edit 2: The beers I force carbed from the "old" tank before refilling are still carbonated and dispensing like normal, no loss. This makes me think that I might have gotten a nitrogen/co2 mix instead of pure CO2. Would this actually be the problem over 3 weeks refrigerated at 30psi?

 

[mac_1103]

Beer gas is either 70/30 or 75/25 nitrogen/CO2. So force carbing on 20 PSI of beer gas would be like force carbing on 5-6 PSI of CO2.

 

[IAmPistolPete]

Wondering aloud if there's a "scientific-adjacent" way of testing if it's a mix vs pure CO2....

 

[scrap iron]

I suggest you call Keller and ask what gases they sell. I've had my co2 refilled there for years with no problems. This was for beer, I have little knowledge of Meads. good luck.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

I suggest you call Keller and ask what gases they sell. I've had my co2 refilled there for years with no problems. This was for beer, I have little knowledge of Meads. good luck

I'm a step ahead of you. I did call, they said if I came in and asked to refill a CO2 tank they filled it with CO2 - I'm beginning to believe that is not what actually happened. This is the first time I had a tank refilled and then encountered this issue vs. swapping tanks. Correlation isn't causation but that's what I've begun narrowing it down to because it doesn't make any sense at all otherwise.

Like @mac_1103 said, "Beer gas is either 70/30 or 75/25 nitrogen/CO2. So force carbing on 20 PSI of beer gas would be like force carbing on 5-6 PSI of CO2." - This leads me to believed that even letting it sit at 30PSI for 3 weeks wouldn't even get close to carbonating the volume I am trying to achieve.

To @IAmPistolPete's point, if there is a way to test the gas that would be a great exercise to confirm gas purity, although I'm not sure how to go about that on the scale of homebrewing and in an affordable way?

I am starting to lean on the idea that I have to swap a 20lb cylinder because I just got a bad case of gas. (hehehehe)

But seriously, would there be a way to verify without much trouble or am I at the whim of someone just telling me they definitely gave me pure CO2 vs a beer gas mix? This is a bit frustrating and I'm not sure why they would try to lie about it but the reality is I've never had this issue in over a decade of force carbing and this seems to be the likely reason.

Genuinely appreciate you all responding and helping me diagnose this. I'm completely baffled by this but it appears that I may have received a refill with a beer gas mix of some kind despite being assured it was 100% CO2

 

[mac_1103]

they said if I came in and asked to refill a CO2 tank they filled it with CO2

Do you know if they actually do beer gas refills? IOW, are you sure that the error you suspect is possible?

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Do you know if they actually do beer gas refills? IOW, are you sure that the error you suspect is possible?

I asked and they just kept saying "if you brought in a CO2 tank then we have to refill it with 100% CO2"

Which is a reasonable thing to say.. you shouldn't just willy nilly decide to do a Nitro/CO2 refill on a clearly labeled CO2 tank.. I'm sure that breaks regulations somewhere, but I'm running out of answers. If it was a pure CO2 tank then I should have never had an issue force carbing a liquid under 30 PSI over 3 weeks, in fact it should have been so over carbonated it would pour straight foamy messes, right?

 

[mac_1103]

I asked and they just kept saying "if you brought in a CO2 tank then we have to refill it with 100% CO2"

Call back and ask them if they refill beer gas cylinders. Disguise your voice.

 

[Hoppy2bmerry]

I threw 30 PSI on a still mead my wife made for over a few weeks and it's not taking on CO2. I pressure checked the vessel and it's getting gas, but I don't understand it. I do 20 PSI on beers and I get a force carb within a week. Granted I had to shut all my other tank valves off just for the mead but I'm seriously confused.. the keg is getting gas and it's not leaking. What in the hell is happening here? I've been force carbing for over a decade and I've never had this issue. Anyone have any ideas what's happening?

Edit: I did take my tank to a Keller fire for a refill because Airgas couldn't swap my tank. Dude told me it was fine for beer since it is pure CO2.

Sorry I’ve only quickly skimmed the thread, what is the ABV? The higher the alcohol the less carbonation it with hold. ‘Session’ meads are easily carbonated, but when you get up around 12% it’s not going to hold.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Sorry I’ve only quickly skimmed the thread, what is the ABV? The higher the alcohol the less carbonation it with hold. ‘Session’ meads are easily carbonated, but when you get up around 12% it’s not going to hold.

It's around 6-7% ABV, but I've carbonated things up to 14% using the same method (turn regulator up to 30PSI and wait a week) and it will easily take on the gas.

FWIW, you can carbonate hard liquor if you wanted to. People have done this easily using a soda stream. So not impossible just different.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Call back and ask them if they refill beer gas cylinders. Disguise your voice.

I did this. They do not and are incapable of doing so, the gentleman on the phone even suggested other places I could go for a 75/25 beer gas mix and after looking up my receipt said again it should be 100% CO2. My wife suggested we fill a keg with water and slap 30 PSI on that to see if it'll carb in a week. At this point I'm so baffled it makes the only sense to start the long walk of FAFO.

 

[marc1]

I did this. They do not and are incapable of doing so, the gentleman on the phone even suggested other places I could go for a 75/25 beer gas mix and after looking up my receipt said again it should be 100% CO2. My wife suggested we fill a keg with water and slap 30 PSI on that to see if it'll carb in a week. At this point I'm so baffled it makes the only sense to start the long walk of FAFO.

Yes, try carbing some cold water. Make sure it's filled lower than the gas post, and purge the headspace a couple times. Bonus is you'll have a keg of seltzer water, which is delicious.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

Yes, try carbing some cold water. Make sure it's filled lower than the gas post, and purge the headspace a couple times. Bonus is you'll have a keg of seltzer water, which is delicious.

The thing about the liquid being below the gas post is weird to me and feels irrelevant. If I put a straw in a cup of water and blow is the water going to resist me that much? No, because physics. In addition to that, I've definitely had kegs filled to the RIM covering the gas post and all it did was make gurgly noises when I applied gas and still force carbed just fine.

Definitely am going the FAFO route with a tank of water. If it doesn't force carb a tank of water I guess that is certainly a sign that I am not actually dealing with 100% CO2.

 

[mac_1103]

The thing about the liquid being below the gas post is weird to me and feels irrelevant....

It's not irrelevant but it's not about resistance or gurgling sounds. It's about the surface area available for gas to dissolve into the beer. If the keg is filled above the point where the sides start to curve in then the surface area is less and carbonation will be slower.

 

[jeebuscrisis]

It's not irrelevant but it's not about resistance or gurgling sounds. It's about the surface area available for gas to dissolve into the beer. If the keg is filled above the point where the sides start to curve in then the surface area is less and carbonation will be slower.

I definitely don't want to be argumentative on this topic but just pointing out that if you use a dip tub as a gas post you will carbonate the liquid faster as you're directly injecting gas into the liquid. This is the same as using an O2 stone submerged in liquid. Surface area is indeed important in many cases (larger surface area to ferment and shallow levels = quicker flocculation than a tall skinny keg), but this is not what is happening in my case I don't believe.


I'll report back my findings when I try to force carb some water off this tank. For the sake of the argument I'll make sure it's full but not up to the gas post.

Worst case I end up with cold flat-ish water, best case great seltzer water and no understanding why a ~7% mead refuses to carbonate under 30 PSI for 3 weeks.