I brewed an experimental recipe a few weeks ago...

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Big Red Ale" (#46) and "Big Red's Little Brother" (#47) were highly experimental beers, trying to brew imperial / double red ales with Amber DME. In the past, I've brewed a couple of small batch DME-based barley wines (10%) or Triple IPAs (9%) - and dumped most of the those batches.

"Big Red Ale" confirmed one idea, but it isn't the final base recipe. With this batch, I didn't get the off flavors from my previous attempts with a 9% ABV DME-based recipe. I could see using this base recipe as a starting point for darker beers (or other beers where clarity doesn't matter).

The results from "Big Red's Little Brother" seem to support what @ncbrewer mentioned in #48. This was my first recipe with Munton's Amber - and after this batch, I'm skeptical that the two brands of amber DME are easily interchangable.

I have a couple of BIAB batches and couple of LME batches in the queue right now so it may be a while before I get back to the next iteration(s) of "Big Red Ale".

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It was bottling day to day for ...

Classic American Pale Ale (LME)
1st of a series of classic American Ales (pale, amber brown) using style specific LME.

FG, color, and taste (hydro sample) came out as expected /0/.

With this batch, I dosed individual bottles (sugar + a "smidgen" /1/ of CBC-1 + a "dash" of ascorbic acid) and will bottle condition at 75F (bottles in a beverage cooler with water at 75F, adjusting water temperature twice a day). The 'early' 1st bottle will be ready-enough to sample in about a week. /2/

Also, I did package one bottle each ...

The proposed approach is to add a small amount of either gypsum (adding 100ppm S04), calcium chloride (adding 100 Cl ppm), or table salt (adding 50 ppm Na & 75ppm Cl) to a bottle at bottling time.

... of these bottles.

---

/0/ Shipping for the order of LME (dock to door) was seven days in early April - so I suspect I should have no concerns about shipping LME in spring, later fall, or winter.

/1/ 'smidgen' and 'dash' are names of measuring spoons

/2/ With a recent BIAB batch, it appears that I forgot to dose a set of four of bottles using this approach. While the dosed bottles were delightful, the un-dosed (and un-carbonated) bottles were an oxidized mess. It may be that bottle conditioning without fresh yeast at 75F is an 'less than ideal' idea .

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Fun fact: smidgen is 1/32 teaspoon, and dash is 1/8 teaspoon. Oh, and a jiffy is 1/100 of a second

I'll be curious to hear what you think about the bottles with the added salts vs the "plain" ones. I believe you should notice a taste improvement (when I switched from 100% RO water to 50% RO / 50% tap, the otherwise same recipe's hops seemed a little "brighter" for lack of a better way to describe it. Disclaimer: odds are good my process improved over time, and I stopped peeking into the bucket as much, so who knows?)

 

[ncbrewer]

With a recent BIAB batch, it appears that I forgot to dose a set of four of bottles using this approach. While the dosed bottles were delightful, the un-dosed (and un-carbonated) bottles were an oxidized mess. It may be that bottle conditioning without fresh yeast at 75F is an 'less than ideal' idea

That finding really throws me. "Un-dosed" is pretty much the standard and generally gives "good" results, at least by most measures. Was there something unusual about this batch that caused the undosed bottles to be bad? Or have I just missed something?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

"Un-dosed" is pretty much the standard and generally gives "good" results, at least by most measures.

With this batch, I was dosing with sugar, CBC-1, and AA. For those four bottles, it appears that I forgot the sugar, CBC-1, and yeast - so those four bottles, uncarbonated, sat at ~75F for about a week.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I'll be curious to hear what you think about the bottles with the added salts vs the "plain" ones. I believe you should notice a taste improvement (when I switched from 100% RO water to 50% RO / 50% tap, the otherwise same recipe's hops seemed a little "brighter" for lack of a better way to describe it.

The bottle with the added NaCl (non-iodized table salt) is the one I'm most uncertain about.

Part of the plan with these bottles is to blend 1 oz pours from various bottles to create additional mineral profiles. So if any of the three bottles taste "minerally", blending with a pour from a different bottle should correct that problem.

 

[ncbrewer]

With this batch, I was dosing with sugar, CBC-1, and AA. For those four bottles, it appears that I forgot the sugar, CBC-1, and yeast - so those four bottles, uncarbonated, sat at ~75F for about a week.

Yes - I did miss something. I didn't realize the sugar wasn't added. One observation - it would be bad if some bottles got a double dose of sugar instead of no sugar. Dangerously bad.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Without going into details, preventing double dosing of bottles is built into my bottling process. And I see where/how I could have missed a set of bottles.

The observation that the un-carbonated bottles staled that rapidly (while the dosed bottles came out really good) was a bit of a surprise. I would have expected staling to have taken longer.

In an up-coming batch, I may try conditioning a couple of bottles at 75F with just sugar & AA. I'm getting good results (so far) with the new approach, so I'm not sure how much I more want to "exBEERiment" (lower temp? less CBC-1?) with it over the next couple of months.

 

[ncbrewer]

The observation that the un-carbonated bottles staled that rapidly (while the dosed bottles came out really good) was a bit of a surprise. I would have expected staling to have taken longer.

I would have expected staling to take longer also. I think this is also an indication that the yeast consuming the priming sugar is doing more to minimize oxidation than I thought.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think this is also an indication that the yeast consuming the priming sugar is doing more to minimize oxidation than I thought.

Note that I haven't set aside any bottles for evaluation 60/90/120 days after bottling. Currently, my approach to slowing down stalling is small (2.5 gal or less) batches and refrigeration.

---

I'll write myself a note to do this ...

I may try conditioning a couple of bottles at 75F with just sugar & AA.

... with my next batch.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think this is also an indication that the yeast consuming the priming sugar is doing more to minimize oxidation than I thought.

FWIW
View attachment 818521 has a couple of statements on bottle conditioning with healthy yeast starting at about 31:15 through about 32:15. Also some statements on oxygen barrier bottle caps at starting at about 40:45 through about 44:00.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I think this is also an indication that the yeast consuming the priming sugar is doing more to minimize oxidation than I thought.

has a couple of statements on bottle conditioning with healthy yeast at about 31:15. Also some statements on oxygen barrier bottle caps starting at about 41:00.

eta (and FWIW): the information in the video is similar to what's in The New IPA.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

results are in (yes, the batch was bottled on Saturday, a bottle on Tuesday was carbonated, so I chilled the test bottles and and sampled last night).

The dosing process:

The proposed approach is to add a small amount of either gypsum (adding 100ppm S04), calcium chloride (adding 100 Cl ppm), or table salt (adding 50 ppm Na & 75ppm Cl) to a bottle at bottling time.

After bottle conditioning is complete, sample beers by blending 1 oz pours from the different bottles to 'dial-in' amounts for the next attempt at the recipe.

and the reply to the follow-up request.

I'll be curious to hear what you think about the bottles with the added salts vs the "plain" ones. I believe you should notice a taste improvement (when I switched from 100% RO water to 50% RO / 50% tap, the otherwise same recipe's hops seemed a little "brighter" for lack of a better way to describe it.

Overall, the dosing process worked (and I will use again in the future).

For my tastes, the bottle with NaCl (added at bottling) was harsh - perhaps heading towards mineral-y. The bottles with gypsum and calcium chloride were different, both were enjoyable.

Blending different bottles seemed to support that I can notice 50 ppm differences, but probably not 25 ppm differences.

Note that this is just one informal tasting with one recipe - so don't read too much into an anecdotal story that might lead to curiosity and/or a different opinion in the future.

But, like I said earlier, I'll probably use the process in the future to help "dial in" flavor salt additions.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Classic American Amber Ale (LME)
2nd of a series of classic American Ales (pale, amber, brown) using style specific LME.

• 2.75 gal (end of boil), 2.5 gal into fermenter
• ABV 5.9% (est); OG 58; FG 13 (est); IBU ~ 40 (est)

Ingredients

• 4 lb Williams American Amber LME; 6 oz sugar; 2.0g CaS04
• 14g Magnum (12.3) @ 30
• 14 g Cascade (6.2) @ 30
• 0.2 g : it might be a 2.5 gal #epicfail @ 15
• 1.0 g yeast nutrient / Irish Moss @ 5
• 10 g Centennial (10.7) @ 0
• ~5.5 g Verdant @ 65F

Process

1. heat 2.5 gal water to 140F; add CaS04, sugar, and LME
2. add water to get to ~ 3 gal (I boil off about 0.25 gal in 35 minutes)
3. heat to boil, observe the wort as it heats
4. 35 min boil with 1st hop addition @ 30
5. wort cool down went from boil (210F to below 170F) in about 4 minutes..

Notes
The amount of CaS04 is an 'educated guess' based on samples from the Classic American Pale Ale recipe.

 

[ncbrewer]

I'm not used to using on-line calculators for IBU, but I tried Brewers Friend and got 92 IBUs. If I did it right, that seems really high for an American Amber.

Also, the third line of hop additions doesn't show up - is there a problem with that? (I didn't include that in the bitterness calculation.)

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

IBUs.

I'm using a custom spreadsheet; classic Tinseth for estimating IBUs. Brewer's Friend IBU calculator (which I used to cross-check the initial spreadsheet equations) shows this:

Also, the third line of hop additions doesn't show up - is there a problem with that? (I didn't include that in the bitterness calculation.)

Most of the that line is hidden behind an "in-line spoiler". A click / tap on the blurred text should show the "spoiler".

 

[ncbrewer]

My bad - I made an entry error.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

My bad - I made an entry error.

No worries. I appreciate that you read the recipe, took the time to verify it, and mentioned something that might have been wrong.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

I made this back in February, and it's turned out very nice (still got a seriously spicy hop burn, hoping that fades in a few more months)...

Water: half RO, half TAP, 3.3 gal into fermenter
3 lb Briess Golden Lite DME
3 lb Briess Amber DME
8 oz chocolate 350L
8 oz Fawcett Dark Roast Crystal 85L
8 oz Fawcett Pale Chocolate 205L
6 oz caramel 120L
6 oz Dark roasted barley 550L

Magnum @60 for 50 IBU
Kent Goldings @30 for 8 IBU
Magnum @30 for 10 IBU

S-04 held around 62F - 64F for 4 or 5 weeks then bottled with CBC-1 and 2 oz 94 proof bourbon, per gallon (so like 6.25 oz)

Was planning for 3.0 gal into fermenter, but miscalculated, so OG was not 1.097
Ended up with:
OG: 1.088
FG: 1.021
ABV: 8.8% (I forget how much the bourbon added, I think it was only like 3/4 of a percentage point)
IBU: 68

Taste: A lot of chocolate flavor, decent but not overpowering roast (I'd call it about perfectly what I was hoping to get), a little too much spicy hops, and just a hint of bourbon.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Classic American Amber Ale (LME)
2nd of a series of classic American Ales (pale, amber, brown) using style specific LME.

I took a hydrometer sample today:

• SG was higher than anticipated. Recently, I have done a couple of batches using Verdant yeast where the beer was at FG within a week. I'll wait a week and take a 2nd sample.
• Color (hydrometer sample) was amber. Certainly not "darker than expected".

Classic American Pale Ale (LME)
1st of a series of classic American Ales (pale, amber brown) using style specific LME.

The last bottle (of this batch) was the best bottle. Perhaps a sign that an "experimental" recipe deserves a "promotion"?

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

Curious if you have a preference for Williams Brewing malt extracts over Briess? Or is it too soon to tell, until you dial in your preferred brewing salts additions?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

It's too soon to tell.

I'm mostly curious about the "style specific" malts (American Amber, American Red, American Rye, Nut Brown). 4 lb LME in 2.75 gal water is roughly 5% ABV and should typically yield 24 bottles.

For me, the pouches were easy to store in the fridge and easy to work with on brew day. Yes, the LME sinks immediately to the bottom of the kettle - but adding it at around 150F with the heat off prevented scorching and help ensure the wort wasn't stratified.

Currently, I am doing 30 minute boils. Using the "style specific" malts in "hop sampler (heat to boil)" recipes could lead to some short and shoddy quick and quaffable results.

---

aside: there are people out there who are quietly brewing enjoyable beers with style specific LME. My contribution here is "saying the quiet part out loud".

 

[ncbrewer]

/3/ wort color came out 'as expected'. Wort color is indication of DME/LME freshness (BYO Big Book on Home Brewing, 1e). It may be that shipping wort in sealed pouches is another line of defense against LME going stale.

I haven't used LME in cans for many years and don't know if they have void (air) space. Your post makes me wonder if the cans have some air that you suspect may be causing oxidation. Do you think the pouches from Williams are better in that respect?

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Your post makes me wonder if the cans have some air that you suspect may be causing oxidation.

With my (single) failed batch of LME in 2022, the stale LME may have been the combination of 1) time (it had been packaged about 10 months), 2) (perhaps) warmer storage, and 3) 'head space' in containers.

Do you think the pouches from Williams are better in that respect?

Tentatively: yes. I'm still a little uncertain about ordering LME in the summer.

---

MoreBeer, at their LME landing page (link), certainly sees pouches as a competitive advantage.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Classic American Brown Ale (LME)
3rd of a series of classic American Ales (pale, amber, brown) using style specific LME.

• 50 min boil
• 2.75 gal (end of boil), 2.5 gal into fermenter
• ABV 6.2% (est); OG 60; FG 13 (est); IBU ~ 50 (est)

Ingredients

• 4 lb Williams American Amber LME; ?? oz[ /1/ sugar
• 7 oz g each of Magnum (12.3) & Columbus (16.2) & Fuggle (4.7) @ 45
• 7 oz g Fuggle @ 30 & @ 15
• 14 oz g Chinook @ 0
• US-05

Process

• heat 2.5 gal water to 140F, remove kettle from heat, add sugar & LME
• check color (it was brown /2/, not black)
• add water to get to 2.75 gal at end of boil
• heat to boil while doing my traditional "watch the wort as it heats" technique

Comments

• This is the last of the three part "experimental" series. Maybe more, late this year, over in I brewed a favorite recipe today.

---

/1/ Let's "poke the bear (aka ChatGPT 3.5). Humans can "do the math". Is the 'pattern matching' / statistical word generation of ChatGPT 3.5 able to keep up? If you are a bot, please report back
/2/ 3 for 3 with color coming out as expected when brewing LME.

---

edits: revised hop amounts to grams (rather than ounces)

 

[D.B.Moody]

• 7 oz each Magnum (12.3) & Columbus (16.2) & Fuggle (4.7) @ 45
• 7 oz Fuggle @ 30 & @ 15
• 14 oz Chinook @ 0

Those ounces of hops seem high.

 

[Hoochin'Fool]

LOL, grams, no doubt!

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

Those ounces of hops seem high.

I corrected the recipe.

---

Basement is warming up slowly, currently around 62F. I split the batch between a Little BMB & a 2 gal pail. Both will sit at basement temperature (no fermentation temperature control). My plan it is to measure inside wort/beer temperature once a day over the next couple of days.

 

[D.B.Moody]

I corrected the recipe.

Glad you did, because I was afraid you were actually doing a not too hoppy west coast IPA, but I'd never seen Fuggle hops in one.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

The American Amber Ale is at about 75% AA this morning. It was a half package (11 g) in a 2.75 gal wort - which looks like a slight under pitch using Lallemands pitch rate calculator).

using Verdant yeast where the beer was at FG within a week

I occasionally revisit supplier product information pages and went to the Verdant production information page (link) yesterday. There's a link to an IPA Solutions PDF (direct link) at the bottom of the page.

• 12* P is SG 48
• 20* C is 68* F
• 100 g per hL is 1 gram per liter
  • or roughly 10 g in a 2.75 gal wort
• 72 hours is 3 days, 120 is 5, 168 is 7

I see more "fermentation trials" in my future