I am getting horrible efficiency and really feel like giving up. HELP!

[johnodon]

Also, take a look at the sticky above by FlyGuy:

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f36/maximizing-efficiency-when-batch-sparging-77125/

Some very good tips there!

John

 

[lithium726]

I'll be hitting up wmts this weekend, I'll be in the area. I'll be brewing this next batch once my ale is out of my fermentation fridge, I'll let y'all know how it goes!

 

[munche]

I used the advice and spreadsheet in this thread and had a very successful session last night. My efficiency ended up right at target (70%) after sparging, although the spreadsheet had me over 80 on my first runnings. Wonder if I could change something about my sparge to make it more efficient? Not that I needed to as I hit the target for the recipe, but you know

 

[bob1852]

I wish I would have known this before. This is not what BeerSmith and the Palmer book are telling me:

BeerSmith says:


Palmer says:

IIRC, both beersmith and palmer are batching sparging following a mash-out. A mash-out adds a small amount of near boiling water to get the mash up to ~170. You can eliminate this step by using hot enough sparge water to get your bed up to 170 (which like people have already said is ~185+)

Also, the "170 extracts tannins" subject has been up for debate recently. How else do you explain decoction mashes that go well above that?

 

[kuphish]

I used the advice and spreadsheet in this thread and had a very successful session last night. My efficiency ended up right at target (70%) after sparging, although the spreadsheet had me over 80 on my first runnings. Wonder if I could change something about my sparge to make it more efficient? Not that I needed to as I hit the target for the recipe, but you know

If you are trying to increase your efficiency, I would first try to get your conversion efficiency as close to 100% as you can, since those will be your highest quality runnings. Furthermore, if you don't convert all the starches to sugars, you can't rinse them when you lauter. After that, you can tweak your lauter efficiency if you are still trying to squeeze a few more gravity points out of your mash. In the end, though, I would strive for consistency. If you can consistently hit 70% into the fermenter, you're in fine shape. Anything over that is gravy.

Good luck and mash on!

 

[johnodon]

IIRC, both beersmith and palmer are batching sparging following a mash-out. A mash-out adds a small amount of near boiling water to get the mash up to ~170. You can eliminate this step by using hot enough sparge water to get your bed up to 170 (which like people have already said is ~185+)

Also, the "170 extracts tannins" subject has been up for debate recently. How else do you explain decoction mashes that go well above that?

AH HA!!! Mystery solved! I started to doubt my own process. Thanks for clearing that up AZ.

John

 

[lithium726]

Just picked up a batch of grain from the Toy Store, the crush looks MUCH BETTER! I'm seeing far finer milled husks and a LOT more white in the mixture. I'm excited about doing this one.

 

[studmonk3y]

Maybe I missed something because I didn't read the whole thread. Why can't you just buy your own mill and that way you can still have the convenience of picking up unmilled grain from the close LHBS and get a good crush?

 

[lithium726]

I could, but I don't have $160 to spend on this partiular hobby right now, plus I don't have the space to put it anywhere. Probably do that next year when I get a house.

 

[studmonk3y]

That is understandable, its easy to spend way too much money in this hobby. But a barley crusher is $115 and corona mills are like $20-30. If you start buying grain in bulk it will pay for itself. Something to think about anyways.

 

[truckjohn]

Ok... so good on you for figuring out your thermo is off a bit.... Ice water slush should run around 32F, boiling water should be close to 212... If you are more than a few degrees off on both - get a new thermo.. They are cheap.

2nd... While you are at it -- buy yourself a little bottle of Iodine disinfectant (Betadine or it's generic counterpart)... Do an Iodine test on your mashes.... Black or dark purple = needs to mash longer..... Reddish = done.

Yes... It's true that beer making is intensely process related -- but using someone else's process is only valid when you have the same starting materials as they assume ...

Case in point -- grain crush... If your grain crush is coarse it wrecks your efficiency if you only mash for 1-hr.... But.. don't throw away all that malt just yet... All you gotta do is mash longer.... just keep checking the iodine test every half hour till it is good.... Then.... you will know how long it takes.....

Once you sort that out -- you can use the grain at the closest LHBS... and just mash it for 2 1/2 hours instead of 1.... Lots of people mash for a whole lot longer... it works just fine.

Or go nuts and take your feeler gages over there and re-set their mill.....

Thanks

John

 

[OLDBREW]

I haven't read this thread through but from what you are saying in your first post, you are fly sparging without a proper manifold in the cooler, and are missing most of the sugars when rinsing. Batch sparge instead, and tighten up the gap in the mill some or run the grist through twice. Either that or build yourself a proper manifold for fly sparging.

 

[pretzelb]

Yea for searches. I may have saved a dupe thread.

I am so glad I found this thread because it matches my situation almost exactly. I even used the same LHBS for a batch yesterday and according to BeerSmith I had something like 48% efficiency (and I was also ready to give up). The only difference is that I created a cpvc manifold for my 48qt square cooler mash tun and I was doing a pretty slow fly sparge. I also would prefer to not spend more money or add more equipment right now. My only problem now is trying to figure out which variable(s) to change.

The easy first choice is to not get grains from LHBS. Maybe I can go back after a while, or after I get a mill, but for now that has to stop. I have used AHS and NB in the past and I have no problem going back. I saw that some people highly recommend the crush from NB and I assume AHS is decent too. I didn't know about the place in Carrollton so maybe I can try them. Looks like they have a demo going on this weekend.

I'm also debating whether to go back to batch sparging and using the SS braid I bought. I learned a bit from this thread that I wasn't following back when I did batch sparge so it might help. But then I'd be changing variables.

One thing I think I do need to watch out for is sparge water temp. Seems like BeerSmith is giving low estimates for the temp. I need to look into this and up my temps. It's almost always saying 168.

Any advice on my situation? Should I just change the grain source to NB or AHS or should I also look at going back to batch sparging with the SS braid?

 

[hlumbard]

I am blown away this is the first time I've seen the info that I have to stir like crazy with batch sparging. I've been getting very low efficiency and I can't figure it out! I'm gonna try stirring a lot on the two batches next time and see what happens! Thanks HBT!

I've just been "incorporating" the sparge water rather than stirring to dissolve the sugars.

 

[StLouisBrews]

OP my first AG was a miserable fail, but after reading Bobby M's AG primer I'm going into this weekend with considerably more knowledge than I had before. Give it a look you might find that your not making any huge mistakes, but maybe a lot of small ones.

My mistakes were that my crush sucked and my sparge could've been more efficient (stirring).

Good luck and don't give up.

 

[lithium726]

I haven't read this thread through but from what you are saying in your first post, you are fly sparging without a proper manifold in the cooler, and are missing most of the sugars when rinsing. Batch sparge instead, and tighten up the gap in the mill some or run the grist through twice. Either that or build yourself a proper manifold for fly sparging.

Yes, I did that for one batch because my batch sparges had been so low. I'm back to batch sparring with a better crush now.

 

[MVKTR2]

I just wanted to drop a line of encouragement. I too posted a 'frustration' thread earlier this summer, but for time purposes. Don't give up on the AG process, it'll work out with time.... or make that time, volume, & temperatures. If me and some of the other knuckleheads here can do it... so can you! I've met homebrewers who probably can't tie their own shoes!

You're getting plenty of advice and I won't cloud your judgement with specifics. However if you give the mash enough time it only helps... time is valuable but free... nothing wrong with a 2 hour mash... make lunch, pick up the kids... etc. Make sure your temps are accurate and that you're hitting the proper temperatures. Volume - volume is important especially in the sparge as if you're not pushing the limit on how much wort you're collecting from the mlt, you're probably missing out on some efficiency.

That's all I got & I'll let others guide you with specifics, just keep at it... *getting out of the way now*

Schlante & Good Luck,
Phillip

 

[kuphish]

Yes, I did that for one batch because my batch sparges had been so low. I'm back to batch sparring with a better crush now.

Cool. Were you able to fill out the spreadsheet during your last brew session?

 

[lithium726]

Just did the batch from the toy store. Grain bill: 4lb flaked wheat, 4lb munich, 4.25lb 2-row, 1.5lb 60L

Boil gravity was 1.04 at 150 for 6.5gal, or 1.059. Boiled for 70 min.

Final was 1.065 in the sample I took for 5.5gal, so about 72%. MUCH better than what I've gotten in the past and what I was expecting with over 20% of the bill wheat. +1 for the wine makers toy store!

edit: according to beer smith the OG should be 1.068, so maybe my sample was a little off. If BS is correct, 77% would be more accuriate and awesome!

 

[kuphish]

Just did the batch from the toy store. Grain bill: 4lb flaked wheat, 4lb munich, 4.25lb 2-row, 1.5lb 60L

Boil gravity was 1.04 at 150 for 6.5gal, or 1.059. Boiled for 70 min.

Final was 1.065 in the sample I took for 5.5gal, so about 72%. MUCH better than what I've gotten in the past and what I was expecting with over 20% of the bill wheat. +1 for the wine makers toy store!

edit: according to beer smith the OG should be 1.068, so maybe my sample was a little off. If BS is correct, 77% would be more accuriate and awesome!

Awesome - glad to hear you have things straightened out!

 

[Apendecto]

Did you say the local home brew store has an adjustable crush setting on their mill? If you want to save on gas/shipping.

 

[pretzelb]

Just did the batch from the toy store. Grain bill: 4lb flaked wheat, 4lb munich, 4.25lb 2-row, 1.5lb 60L

Boil gravity was 1.04 at 150 for 6.5gal, or 1.059. Boiled for 70 min.

Final was 1.065 in the sample I took for 5.5gal, so about 72%. MUCH better than what I've gotten in the past and what I was expecting with over 20% of the bill wheat. +1 for the wine makers toy store!

edit: according to beer smith the OG should be 1.068, so maybe my sample was a little off. If BS is correct, 77% would be more accuriate and awesome!

Cool. Were you at the all grain demo they did on Saturday? I made it for the beginning and checked out the grain crush. It looked totally different than the one I got from the other local store so right away I knew something was up. I ordered a kit from NB that should arrive soon and I will check their crush out this weekend. I'm hopefully I will get better numbers with a different crush. But my next local trip will be to wine makers.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

+1 on Toystore! Plus if you don't have the time or gas to get over there, they will ship it to you. I've been going there for about 4 months and I can't see any reason to change that. Great local store. And if you joint there Brewer's Club (free) you get 10% off!

 

[Brewvy]

OK so Efficency Checklist:
Good crush of grains-buy feeler guage set crush to .24-.30,havent read of many stuck sparges
Have accurate thermometer(check at freezing and at boiling)
Stir in strike water completely,no dough balls,consistent temperature everywhere
Hit right mash temp for your recipe adjust with hot or cold water as needed
Mash long enough for conversion,err on long side,do iodine test
Batch sparge with hot enough water to reach mash out of 168 degrees (1 addition remaining)
Or take a appropriate amount of runnings or mash and heat up and re-add to achieve mash out temperature(168 degrees)Stir stir stir (2 more additions remaining)
Vorlauf, then drain
Add appropriate amount of 168 degree water for second step of sparge,stir stir stir
Vorlauf, then drain
Repeat if necessary to achieve desired pre boil volume
Notes-mash in with 1-1.5 qts/#of grain,sparge with necessary amount of water in 2 batches considering grain absorbtion and MLT dead-space
Thats all I got

 

[enderdsus7]

Me too on low efficiency from Homebrew headquarters. Last two batches were 48% and 51%. I want to try some 1 pound mashes with 2row from HBHQ and winemakers toy store to prove the crush is at fault. Will include a double crush at HBHQ and report back. Hoping to do it this weekend. Anyone want to participate?

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Me too on low efficiency from Homebrew headquarters. Last two batches were 48% and 51%. I want to try some 1 pound mashes with 2row from HBHQ and winemakers toy store to prove the crush is at fault. Will include a double crush at HBHQ and report back. Hoping to do it this weekend. Anyone want to participate?

What was your efficiency yesterday? I didn't know it was that low.

 

[pretzelb]

I did a batch of NB St Paul's Porter yesterday and I think my previous issues were crush as well. According to BeerSmith my efficiency into the boiler was 71% as opposed to the 46% from the batch from LHBS. Things were looking great but I think I screwed up my boil.

My actual OG was 64% according to BeerSmith. Still, that is better than the 47% from my last batch. Like I said, I think I screwed up the boil as I changed tanks with about 15 minutes to go.

I also think that I need to adjust my evaporation calculations or something else because I never seem to hit the final volume that I expect. But that's a different topic.

So I hope to visit the other LHBS for my next batch and see if the numbers stay in the 70's. If so I'd say I have the answer to a big part of the problem.

 

[enderdsus7]

Jason, i had 51% efficiency yesterday. So, unless my water filter is screwing ph, it is probably grain. I used your water into the filter and you saw my process, yet you got 20% more efficiency than me. I'll buy a mill if i can prove the crush at hbhq is a big part of my efficiency problem.

 

[WildGingerBrewing]

Wow. I had no idea it was that low. It has to be the crush. Darin ussed the same water through the same filter you did and he had a higher effeciency too.

 

[Brennan]

I don't know guys. I'm a total All-Grain noob, and I just did my first AG batch three weeks ago with grains I bought from HBHQ, in Richardson. I used BrewPal on my iPhone to determine my pre-boil gravity, and I was about 5 points under. It said I should have had 1.061 and I came out with 1.056, which wasn't bad. I calculated it out to be 69% efficiency based off John Palmer's yield extraction charts in How To Brew.

However, I also put the recipe in Beer Tools (I was checking out the trial version) and it calculated my pre-boil gravity as 1.056, which was exactly what I had. I guess I'm saying that the crush from HBHQ may not necessarily be to blame if a newbie like me can get 69% efficiency. It's low, but not that low, and it actually ended up fermenting lower than I thought it would so I got my desired ABV and then some.

Grain Bill:
Marris Otter - 10lbs.
Crystal 60 - 0.5lbs.
Belgian Special B - 0.25lbs.

Single temp infusion, 152 for a little over an hour, then double batch sparge at 170.