Hydrogen Peroxide for Aeration

[bnscherm]

Has anyone considered using hydrogen peroxide to aerate/oxygenate there wort prior to pitching? It is my understanding that H2O2 would decompose into two H2O molecules and one O2 molecule. Maybe someone with more of a chemistry background can chime in.

Seeing as how hydrogen peroxide is antiseptic I would think it would be important to add the H2O2 to the wort and give it a good stir before adding the yeast...

 

[GilaMinumBeer]

It's been discussed several times and, IIRC, it's suggested as being too antiseptic for the yeast. Likely killing them or stressing them beyond benifit.

Olive Oil appears to have more merit but only with a couple relavent studies.

Shaking, Aquarium pumps or good ole fashion Oxygen have been proven tho'.

 

[TexLaw]

Shaking has yet to fail for me.


TL

 

[Pangea]

I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science

 

[GNBrews]

Most solutions of H2O2 are available in 50% aqueous.

Where are you buying your peroxide? I haven't seen anything OTC above 30%.

 

[beerkrump]

Hydrogen peroxide is H2O2 - and will dissociate in water to 2 H+ ions and Oxygen gas (O2).

-1 for high school chemistry

Try 2 H2O2 --> 2 H2O + O2.

The power of hydrogen peroxide is not the acidity(which is weak), but the fact that it is one of the strongest oxidizing agents. Normal, drug store H2O2 is only around 3% and that is enough to bleach hair (see peroxide blonde). 50%, that stuff is corrosive and no one is going to sell it to individuals at that strength.

The biggest issue with adding H2O2 to wort would be the compounds that would result from the redux reaction. Sure you'll have some extra H2o and O2, but what else?

+1 for shaking.

 

[IowaHarry]

Where are you buying your peroxide? I haven't seen anything OTC above 30%.

At work we were told to use up all the >30% peroxide as it has made the leap to the "watched substances" list by Homeland Security. Apparently if you want to use something stronger than 30% you must be a terrorist.

And yes, the peroxide would probably do mean and hurtful things to your yeast. We use it to keep critter populations down.

 

[z987k]

hmmm, anyone want to figure out how much H2O2 yields enough O2 for properly oxygenated wort?

 

[flaminpi3]

Speaking of high school chemistry, I'm pretty sure hydrogen peroxide doesn't break down into O2 and H20 for sh*ts and giggles, it's going to need a catalyst and I don't think anything in beer qualifies. Plus, has anyone ever mouthwashed with H2O2, it tastes f**king disgusting. HOW IS THIS BEING DISCUSSED AS A POSSIBLITLY?!?!...sip...sip...okay, sorry about that.

Oh and then there's this:

Ingestion:
Large oral doses may cause irritation and blistering to the mouth, throat, and abdomen. May also cause abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea.

 

[jds]

hmmm, anyone want to figure out how much H2O2 yields enough O2 for properly oxygenated wort?

OK. I'll bite.

Assumptions: 2H2O2 --> 2H2O + O2
Neglecting everything in the wort that isn't water, 5 gallons is roughly 19 liters.
8 PPM target value for oxygenation.
All oxygen released by H2O2 goes into solution (this probably isn't the case).

19 l water * 56 (mol/l) = 1064 moles of water.

1064 mol water * ( 8 mol O2 / 1,000,000 mol water) = 8.5E-3 moles O2 needed.
Since 2 mol H2O2 yields 1 mol O2, we'd need 17.02E-3 moles of H2O2

With a molecular weight of 34, you'd need 34 * 71.02E-3 = 0.578 grams, or about a half a gram of H2O2. Using a 3% solution from the drugstore would mean you'd need around 19.3 grams dilute H2O2. Doesn't seem like much, but that assumes 100% efficiency at getting the released O2 into solution.

3% H2O2 has a specific gravity similar to water, so we're talking about 20ml of dilute hydrogen peroxide.

Anybody want to give it a shot?

 

[chase]

-1 for high school chemistry

Try 2 H2O2 --> 2 H2O + O2.

Thank you! I learned in high school that unbalanced equations make angels and puppies cry.

H2O2 = very poor acid (i.e. doesn't release H+)
H2O2 = strong oxidizer. Can't be purchased over-the-counter above ~5% because strong oxidizing agents can be explosive (see IowaHarry's comment).

In the world of biology, H2O2 is known as a "reactive oxygen species". It likes to form a free radical intermediate which wreak havoc in the cell. That means that it has a high degree of reactivity with organic molecules (which by the way, is why it is used as an antiseptic; it kill micro-organisms that may be in the vicinity of tissue damage).

In the brewery, this means that H2O2 will kill yeast, and react with other organic molecules in the wort to potentially create off flavors. Because I know there is probably someone out there that will try it, this does not mean that that it won't oxygenate the wort, and it won't ferment.

 

[Scotty_g]

Speaking of high school chemistry, I'm pretty sure hydrogen peroxide doesn't break down into O2 and H20 for sh*ts and giggles, it's going to need a catalyst and I don't think anything in beer qualifies. Plus, has anyone ever mouthwashed with H2O2, it tastes f**king disgusting. HOW IS THIS BEING DISCUSSED AS A POSSIBLITLY?!?!...sip...sip...okay, sorry about that.

Oh and then there's this:

Ingestion:
Large oral doses may cause irritation and blistering to the mouth, throat, and abdomen. May also cause abdominal pain, vomiting, and diarrhea.

Peroxide *will* break down spontaneously. Low pH stabilizes it, which is why they add a little phosphoric acid for consumer stuff. It will break down faster at alkaline pH; wort is acidic so it won't break down very fast. But it *will* break down. If you ever find an old bottle of drugstore stuff, you may notice it doesn't fizz anymore because it decomposed on the shelf.

The free radicals created by decomposition will react with anything available including proteins and sugars. The resulting compounds may or may not taste nasty.

The danger of household peroxide is pretty low, but 50% is strong enough to cause spontaneous combustion, explosions, and can be used as a low-grade rocket fuel (by itself, I believe). I worked at a place that used it and we were told to remove leather boots or gloves if we spilled the liquid onto them, and to do it quick before they caught fire with you inside.

However, if you read product safety information or MSDS's, anything can kill you. You'd probably have to *try* to burn yourself with 3% peroxide. The MSDS for water includes the instruction to flush with water if you get any water in your eyes.

As an aside, Oxyclean/One-step is related to hydrogen peroxide (sodium peroxycarbonate). Don't use that to oxygenate either.

 

[z987k]

might be worth while to put a very very small amount in a very small amount of wort pre-ferment, let it sit awhile and taste it. See if it induced off flavors right from the start.

 

[Yuri_Rage]

FWIW, with a proper pitching rate, aeration isn't even necessary. Make BIG starters or use plenty of dry yeast, and forgo all this nonsense.

 

[michaelm]

FWIW, with a proper pitching rate, aeration isn't even necessary. Make BIG starters or use plenty of dry yeast, and forgo all this nonsense.

Ya know somethings just aint broke so why try to fix it

Shake it or if thats to much work(it is a pain and frankly dangerous with glass)
Use a piece of racking cane melt a hole or two in it with a fine needle and put it inline of your hose(there is a venturi thread around here somewhere lookit up) just make sure the venturi is lower then the pot your racking from and it does a great job of sucking in air and mixing it up (or if thats just to simple and cheap...) inject 02 with a pump or bottle..

Or like Yuri said pitch enough yeast and you dont have to worry anyways....

 

[beerkrump]

Just a couple of things...

Do people not check their facts before they spout science? I've got a BS in chemistry and still check before I put anything out there.

jds - you also work under the assumption that the wort is pure H2O and that it is starting at 0 ppm O2, but that's just me being anal.

Most importantly, why would you put something in your carefully crafted brew that comes out of your medicine cabinet with a warning against consumption. What ever happened to the Reinheitsgebot? But then again, a Vick's 44 porter, hmmmmm....

 

[jds]

jds - you also work under the assumption that the wort is pure H2O and that it is starting at 0 ppm O2, but that's just me being anal.

Correct. It was an unstated assumption. I think that the real hole in the calculation is the assumption of 100% efficiency in converting liberated O2 to dissolved O2. I doubt that would be the case, and I haven't looked for any references on what efficiency could be expected.

It's a pie-in-the-sky calculation anyhow. I, for one, will continue aerating using a venturi in my transfer hose, and stirplating starters.

 

[GNBrews]

I think you were pretty safe to assume that wort has close to 0 ppm O2 post boil. The high temperature and turbidity of the steam bubbling through it would tend to knock out any dissolved gasses.

 

[Spludge]

I don't want it in my beer! That doesn't sound good to me at all...
Yuri is right, it not really necessary. In this video by BobbyM the unaerated batches do better compared to their aerated counterparts.

 

[david_42]

Considering a very dilute solution can strip the color from hair, I hate to think what it would do to wort.

 

[ipscman]

From Brewing Techniques magazine:

To answer your second question, I consulted my friend Dr. George Fix, author of The Principles of Brewing Science (1). Based on his answer, I would not even try to use peroxide as a substitute for an aerating stone. Here's why.

Hydrogen peroxide is basically a water molecule with a second oxygen atom loosely attached. That loose oxygen is highly reactive and makes peroxide a powerful sanitizer. As you might expect, adding a dose of sanitizer to a freshly pitched wort clashes with the mission of your yeast. When Dr. Fix tried using peroxide to oxygenate wort, he managed to kill most of the yeast rather than make it grow. The resulting fermentation was typically problematic - long lag period, slow and incomplete attenuation, high levels of by-products, and so forth. Based on Dr. Fix's findings, I do not recommend peroxide as a substitute for air or oxygen in cold wort, and I see no point in calculating the volume of H2O2 required.

BT - Troubleshooter: Vol. 4, No. 6

 

[chase]

There it is, from Fix himself. Brewer and scientist. Topic closed.

 

[pollox87]

Old Topic, but I decided to give this a shot. I ended up using 24g of 3% H2O2 once my wort was cool (5 gal batch). I then waited 30 minutes for the reaction to occur and then pitched 1.6 L of a WLP001 starter. 6 hours later the airlock started to bubble and 12 hours from pitching it was going at a good rate.

I will let you know if there are any off flavors once finished.

 

[WortMonger]

Ok, I have to see how this turns out just on curiosity alone. Bobby's videos are why I don't worry, relax, and have a plethora of homebrews. Can't wait to see how the experiment turns out though.

 

[weirdboy]

I really don't understand why people go to so much trouble to aerate their wort. This is not rocket science, folks. I usually venturi during transfer, but even if you don't have holes in your transfer hose, you can still just fan the liquid out against the side of the fermenter as it fills up.

 

[pollox87]

I am not chemist nor do I know all about brewing but from what I have understood:
-Using air without a filter exposes your beer to infection. (and I have had a few batches infected)
-Using Air (~30% O2) is difficult to get greater than 8 ppm, which is the bottom range of dissolved oxygen levels you would want in your wort.
-Pouring a measured amount of a product I can buy from my grocery store for $1.50 is not rocket science.

 

[dummkauf]

Shaking has yet to fail for me.
TL

On the homebrew level, I am still failing to understand why people look at other aeration methods other than shaking(other than 10+ gallon batches which may be too heavy to shake, but most of us are doing 5 gallons). I am also curious who has ever had a homebrew not fully ferment out and can actually provide proof that the yeast died due to lack of oxygen????

 

[shamrockdoc]

I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science
I will check wikipedia before spouting science

BUUUWWWWAHAHAHAHAHAHA:rockin::rockin::rockin::rockin:

 

[Red Clay]

I really don't understand why people go to so much trouble to aerate their wort. This is not rocket science, folks. I usually venturi during transfer, but even if you don't have holes in your transfer hose, you can still just fan the liquid out against the side of the fermenter as it fills up.

Yeah, me too. Just like those guys who started experimenting with burning highly flamable and dangerous petroleum to make a cart move! It was slower than horses, more expensive, more dangerous and noisy to boot. I mean, really, people should just leave well-enough alone.

Okay, that was obviously snarkism, but the point is that the road to progress is paved with people trying stupid things. I love the spirit and don't want to discourage it (as long as appropriate safety measures are taken.)

By the way, I have grave doubts that this will turn out well. But rock on! :rockin:

 

[pollox87]

I kegged it today and there were no off flavors I could detect. Actually the ferment was so clean I think It may have had too much O2, but it was just WLP001 so it is clean anyway. I tried it again today with two batches but cut the amount of H2O2 in half. We will see how these turn out.

brew on.