How to *really* brew can kits?

[EvilDrFoetus]

I realise these are probably heresy on HBT, but I really want to dial everything in before I blow a ton of money on extract gear.

I started with homebrew last year, messed about with beer and wine kits before ditching the latter as it's a lot of effort for little yield (don't really have the space to stash demijohns everywhere for months on end). Had mixed success with canned kits.

Recently saw a few comments on other threads about 2-3 week primaries or longer, combining this with other snippets across the forum I'm wondering if there's a better way to use these kits rather than the manufacturer's instructions, which the cynic in me are more about quick turnaround and higher volume of sales.

I switched to 2-can versions like Woodforde's as even going by the book they taste a lot better than using a couple of pounds of sugar and hit target OG more consistently, but still they're a bit acidic.

I've tried to read around and make notes, so now I've got a fermenter free I was wondering if what I've got planned makes sense?

STEP 1: Start

Book: Stand cans in hot water (5 minutes) and add to fermenter, add 0.9 US Gal boiling water, make up to 6 US Gal with cold, mix, add dried yeast on top, seal.

I've got a 6.5 US Gal (or thereabouts) bucket, I tend to add one can, fill with boiling water and rinse out, then repeat so the amounts are the same. Tap water in Leicester is probably the hardest known to man, but works fine for local-type (medium) ales (my favourite anyway). The yeast in these kits is usually rebranded Nottingham, so works fine as-is and kicks off in about a day and a half. Don't think I need to change anything here.

STEP 2: Primary

Book: 4-6 days in warm place, move when FG stable over two days.

Temperature control's hard in the flat, but the airing cupboard (on some trash bags...) is as good as it gets. Seeing as I'll have my current batch on secondary in the pressure barrel for a few weeks if I start a new brew soon it's got no choice but to sit a while, hence this thread.

The buckets I use have a nice soft lid but snap tight, so they handle the gas really well, I've not worries about blowoffs or leaks in there, so I figure give it two weeks for the hell of it (it's a canned kit, not an AG masterpiece, so that seems a decent tradeoff?)

STEP 3: Secondary(?)

Book: This is where these kits get a bit weird; after the 4-6 days they say bottle or stick in a pressure barrel for 2 days warm, 14 cool. With priming sugar of course.

Pressure barrels are common here in the UK as Cornies are hella expensive, problem is the taps start leaking from day one, they don't stack and they're ugly as hell. So I'd like to switch to bottles at some point (last attempt was an absolute disaster)

I've not noticed any cidery flavours from using normal (beet) sugar at about 2.8 oz / 6 US Gal, so I just boil enough water to dissolve it all in (about 17 US fl. oz.) stick that in the barrel then auto siphon over it (tube curled around the inner base to avoid aeration). No issues there.

I stick the barrel (bottles) in the airing cupboard for the two days then move to the pantry for the rest. I've seen beer does get much, much better after the third week so that makes sense, not sure how long it should be warm (~70 F) for?

Really want to try bottling again (as I had that bloody barrel), I drilled out an old food grade bucket and fitted a tap/wand, got a bunch of PET ~ 1 US pint bottles and away I went. Messy as Hell, beer came out crap. later found out Star San doesn't work with our water (ran some experiments, it's good for about 30 seconds after mixing). Sourced some RO and that's working wonders, I don't use anything else now (I'm an organic chemist by training, brings up fond memories of dousing everything in Picric ).

I suspect all that went wrong the last time was lack of sanitising as the Star San was inactive, I'd rather go with PET again as it's cheaper for a trial and easier to obtain/store, unless anyone has compelling arguments against?


Phew, sorry for the wall of text, and posting a load of questions, but I'm really enjoying brewing (have severe depression, it's really therapeutic) and I'm determined to up my game. Figured this is the best place to ask.

[Edit: Done my best to use US measurements where possible seeing as most of the forum are across The Pond, might have made a few errors though]

 

[poptarts]

 

[Zepth]

I'm afraid posting a photo of a trash can isn't particularly useful.

Start: Sounds good. I'm not familiar with the "2 cans" extract kits, but I assume it it similar to one can of pre-hopped extract for your recipe, and a second can of unhopped generic liquid extract in place of the sugar. Perhaps rehydrate the yeast in warm water in a sanitized vessel first. Most dry packs contain more than enough yeast to get the job done in a satisfactory manner without doing so.

Primary: Go until your FG is stable. If you don't have (space for) a fermentation chamber, either look to known ale strains that will work with your ambient temperature. Also look into swamp coolers. The beer seems to become its best after about 3 weeks, this is more a function of having time to age than anything else. It will age just fine here.

Secondary: Skip it. Unless you are planning a genuine second fermentation ie: fruit addition, just let it roll in primary. A little extra time on the yeast cake won't hurt the beer any. Caution while racking will keep the trub out of bottles / barrels.

Packaging: Do whatever works for you. Sounds like it will be bottling. No shortage of priming sugar calculators out there, I am partial to Northern Brewer. If bottling I dissolve the regular grocery store sugar in the water before racking onto, if I'm keg priming I tend to just dump it into the keg and let the yeast do their thing. Do not try this is bottle carbonating. Disaster liable to occur.

 

[EvilDrFoetus]

Thanks Zepth, and yeah, that's pretty much how can kits work, guess it's an English thing.

Luckily Nottingham yeast is easy to get and works well for our environment (makes sense, seeing as its birthplace is about 25 miles north of here) Summer could be an issue though, so I'll have a look at evap cooling nearer then (or MacGyver an old fridge).

I think half the issue is how kit makers define primary/secondary: they count bottle/barrel as secondary. Am I right in thinking that ~3 weeks in the primary (hitting FG), slap it in a bottle and it's good to go? (Getting better with age, within reason).

Dyslexia and Autism don't play nicely with written instructions, so just double checking (also leads to tl;dr walls of text, sorry Poptarts ).

 

[BeardedBrews]

Better way to use these kits

I believe the trash can was a recommendation for the pre-hopped extract.

At the risk of over-simplifying, asking how to make better beer from pre-hopped can extract is very similar to asking how to make better orange juice from a tub of Tang. There really isn't anything you can do to get it to taste like something other than Tang.

To your questions of process, the whole thing is Wort->Beer->Carbonation.

If you are sanitary, and you aren't adding a bunch of oxygen by stirring everything up, and you are fermenting and carbonating at a temperature that your yeast likes, then you're going to get a finished product that's exactly as good as your ingredients.

If you want better beer, start with better ingredients.


<edit> You asked about the fermentation thing. Primary fermentation is where wort goes to beer. Secondary fermentation is where beer is allowed to settle, possibly finishing off any fermenting that hasn't been done yet. Carbonation is a separate step where you give the beer a little extra sugar to encourage the yeast to produce more CO2. You seal up the beer during this step so that the CO2 stays in your beer to carbonate it.

All fermenting should be at a temperature that makes your yeast happy.

 

[poptarts]

I believe the trash can was a recommendation for the pre-hopped extract.

Correct

 

[EvilDrFoetus]

If you want better beer, start with better ingredients.

Issue is that extract kits don't exist here, it's prehopped crap or dropping near $300 on an AG setup (that's what UK prices are like).

That said, I was running errands today and saw a cheap stockpot, holds a bit over 3 gallons, should be enough to try experimenting. Wort's basically water, malt extract, steeped grains and hops right?

 

[poptarts]

BIAB you can do small batches on stove top for the cost of a bag, chances are you have a pot already or like you said can find a cheap stock pot.

 

[BeardedBrews]

Issue is that extract kits don't exist here, it's prehopped crap or dropping near $300 on an AG setup (that's what UK prices are like).

That said, I was running errands today and saw a cheap stockpot, holds a bit over 3 gallons, should be enough to try experimenting. Wort's basically water, malt extract, steeped grains and hops right?

You can gain quite a bit in your beer quality by boiling the hops yourself, even if you still use extract from a can. Watch the local charity shops, or garage sales, and see if you can find a deal you like on a 3-4 gallon pot.

Then, go to Northern Brewer's Extract Kits:
http://www.northernbrewer.com/brewing/recipe-kits/extract-kits

Each kit has a copy of the instructions under "Additional Information", which includes the ingredients. You can buy the ingredients anywhere, and then follow the instructions on the sheet.


Good luck!

 

[Homercidal]

poptarts wasn't terribly clear, but I have to kind of agree with his assessment of pre-hopped kits. I *really* think you should look into Brew-In-A-Bag if you can't find decent extract kits over there. Honestly, the difference between BIAB AG and extract is minimal as far as cost. The biggest thing you will need is a decent sized kettle and a place to buy milled grains.

Brewing smaller BIAB batches has got to be better than messing with pre-hopped kits.

That said, I can recommend using RO water with StarSan, as you've found out. Maybe using RO water with a bit of Gypsum and Calcium Chloride instead of tap water (because it's likely not that great for most beer styles if it's that hard/alkaline), definitely bottle if you can. It's not that bad once you get the hang of it. There is a sticky: https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=94812

I prefer glass, but lots of people successfully use PET bottles.

No offense to Notty, but it best for a few styles, namely English Ales. It's better at cooler temps, too. Like 65F. Warmer than that and it gives some fruity character (might be just what you want!)

After bottling let the bottles sit for about 3 weeks anywhere it's about 70. There isn't enough fermentation going on at that point to worry about off-flavors, so a bit warmer is not an issue.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't know what is available across the pond, but here on the other side, prehopped cans are considered "beginner" brewing. Most will skip that stage entirely or do only one or two before moving to extract, usually steeping specialty grains and doing a boil, adding hops at the appropriate time. There is no end to the places where you can buy extract with steeping grain kits over here.

You should be able to get unhopped extracts, hops and specialty grains over there?!?!? If so look for a good recipe and buy the ingredients needed.

I have no idea about pressure vessels as they are uncommon on our side of the pond. But bottling is pretty easy. You need caps, a capper a sanitizer, bottling bucket with spigot a piece of vinyl tubing and a bottling wand. Add priming sugar solution to the bucket and siphon the beer into it then fill and cap the bottles.

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/showthread.php?t=94812

poptarts nailed my opinion of prehopped cans of extract!!

 

[ChelisHubby]

I have never been on your side of the pond. That said if you can buy some DME and some crystal 10 or something close, and then either a can of pre hopped malt or better yet just some hops pellets or otherwise. Your beer would be better. The cans are easy but not the best tasting. Making your own recipes are half the fun. But the best recipes are usually simple, Malt and a crystal and then hopped.

 

[EvilDrFoetus]

Thanks all.

Found plenty of suppliers for the malts/hops etc. just not complete kits. I'm too much of a tinkerer to stick with them anyway.

Realistically I'd be moving to partial boils at about 2.5gal US. Plugging the numbers in a few calculators I have some ideas, but I'm not sure how steeping would alter this.

I know you lose water through absorption, but how do you handle it? Do you top up to the initial boil volume after steeping, or try and pre-empt it by knocking off about 1/2 gallon a pound in the spreadsheet?

Given I don't have a lot of volume to work with (can't get turkey fryers here, so options are crazy expensive electric immersion buckets or small pots) I'd suspect the former, and seeing how gravity is barely affected by steeping it's not like it's messing up that part of the profile by topping up before the boil.

 

[kh54s10]

Extract with specialty grains. You start with about 2.5 gallons of water. Heat it to about 150 degrees and immerse grains in a steeping bag into the water, swirl it around often to make sure the water is going through all the grains. (no dry area in the middle) Steep for 20 - 30 minutes. This will give color, flavor and a little bit of fermentable sugars.
After the steep pull and drain the grain bag and raise the heat to begin the boil. You will have to use a recipe or calculator to determine what hops to add and when it is best to add them. There are different uses for hops, some are best for bittering, others are better for flavor or aroma. Timing is what determines how they work. A bittering hop might be added as soon as the foam (hot break) subsides and will stay in the boil for the whole 60 minutes (90 minutes sometimes). Longer in the boil adds mostly bitterness from that hop addition. Flavor and aroma hops are added late in the boil, maybe between 20 minutes left down to after the heat is shut off. Later in the boil add mostly to flavor and some to aroma. Hops added after flameout add mostly to aroma and some to flavor. There are many variations which will alter the bitterness, flavor and aroma of the beer.

After the boil you cool the wort to about 75-80 degrees then add top up water until you are at the proper volume. 5 gallons is most common for kits. Check the temperature and original gravity, then if at the right temperature for the yeast (usually mid 60's Fahrenheit) - aerate the wort (shake it vigorously) then add the yeast. Keep the wort in the mid sixties for the first few days at least then you can let is rise a little to aid the yeast in finishing the fermentation.

Keep searching, I am sure you can find what you need. If not you can spend big money and have it shipped from this side of the pond.

 

[RustyHorn]

I believe the trash can was a recommendation for the pre-hopped extract.

I thought it was a clever observation because he called it a trash can, rather than a rubbish bin (the English term).

 

[BeardedBrews]

I thought it was a clever observation because he called it a trash can, rather than a rubbish bin (the English term).

Which variety of horn?

Not a trombone I hope

 

[RustyHorn]

Which variety of horn?

Not a trombone I hope

The finest of all the hilarious intimate positions... :-D

 

[charliehorse]

I realise these are probably heresy on HBT, but I really want to dial everything in before I blow a ton of money on extract gear.

I'm trying to get my head wrapped around this. First of all, brewing an extract kit requires a 12 quart pot (or a little bigger), a thermometer and a fermenting vessel. You can find a 12 quart pot (or bigger) in lots of places for cheap... yard sales (I believe that in the UK, they call them "boot sales"... but we won't get into what that means on this side of the Atlantic), thrift shops, steal one from your Mom, online classifieds, etc.

If you want to learn the steps, Brewer's Best web site has their instructions for their kits on their web site and all extract kits work the same way. Some might use more hops or have a different hop schedule, but operationally, they are the same.

If Nottingham is close, then so is West Yorkshire, where Thomas Fawcett maltsters are. You can get malt (grain) in the UK and I feel certain that you can find Malt Extract.

 

[EvilDrFoetus]

If Nottingham is close, then so is West Yorkshire.

If you'd consider Virginia Beach close to Richmond, then sure.

Probably need to revise my original statement now I've had some more input; there's a lot of mixed terminology form UK sources re: extract/PM/AG, and in terms of gear the brew shops tend to lump all the latter together. Got hold of a 12 litre pan which should be enough to play around with (burners are the real limiting factor over here).

Materials, however, are easy to get hold of, and there's enough recipes around, albeit they'll need converting (equipment's based on the 5 UK gal standard brew here so 6 US). So I'll just have to experiment.

I don't consider that a bad thing.

 

[Zepth]

Materials, however, are easy to get hold of, and there's enough recipes around, albeit they'll need converting (equipment's based on the 5 UK gal standard brew here so 6 US). So I'll just have to experiment.

I don't consider that a bad thing.

Or brew the US gal version on the 5UK gal equipment. It's doing things the other way around when things get troublesome. Or convert things as a +20% volume version. Not too tricky.

Looking at the way the thread has progressed, I think you're about ready to start on the unhopped extract path, possibly with the steeping grains.

 

[JKaranka]

If you'd consider Virginia Beach close to Richmond, then sure.

Probably need to revise my original statement now I've had some more input; there's a lot of mixed terminology form UK sources re: extract/PM/AG, and in terms of gear the brew shops tend to lump all the latter together. Got hold of a 12 litre pan which should be enough to play around with (burners are the real limiting factor over here).

Materials, however, are easy to get hold of, and there's enough recipes around, albeit they'll need converting (equipment's based on the 5 UK gal standard brew here so 6 US). So I'll just have to experiment.

I don't consider that a bad thing.

Ages ago I got myself a big pot from an Asian shop. I used it for extract brewing and cooking curries (you could easily make food for 20/30 people). It was OK to boil about 4 gallons, after that it became a bit dangerous on the boil. An easy thing to do was to dilute down before fermenting by topping with a gallon of water when transferring to the FV.

As you mention, gear and (unhopped) extract are a pain to find. At one point I invested in one of those Muntons 25kg extra light LME canisters and got it over on the post. That made brew days pretty fast and efficient.

 

[charliehorse]

If you'd consider Virginia Beach close to Richmond, then sure.

Probably need to revise my original statement now I've had some more input; there's a lot of mixed terminology form UK sources re: extract/PM/AG, and in terms of gear the brew shops tend to lump all the latter together. Got hold of a 12 litre pan which should be enough to play around with (burners are the real limiting factor over here).

Materials, however, are easy to get hold of, and there's enough recipes around, albeit they'll need converting (equipment's based on the 5 UK gal standard brew here so 6 US). So I'll just have to experiment.

I don't consider that a bad thing.

Actually, Richmond and Virginia Beach are fairly close. Then again, we don't think much of driving 100 miles. That wasn't the point. The point was that he should be able to get Thomas Fawcett products fairly easily.