How to Re-Pitch on 1968 ESB Yeast Cake? To Secondary or Not?

[HighGravity]

I was wondering if I could get some advice on repitching using a Wyeast 1968 ESB. I bought the large size of smack pack that swelled very quickly, so didn't bother with a starter and it seems to have been doing well since pitching 5 days ago. The first 4 days it was 70-71 degrees, now down to 68.

From what I hear it seems 1968 is very flocculant so I was wondering if I should bottle from the primary in about 10 days and stick a new batch in there, or should I rack to a new carboy now and repitch into there? This is my first time doing a primary in a carboy so its pretty much loaded with krausen inside, around the bung and all over the outside of the carboy too as I didnt realize I needed a blow off tube until the airlock exploded. Lucky it was in the shower stall! :fro:

1968 is great for watching the action in a carboy after having a HB, the large chunks just swirling like mad up and down.

 

[Nateo]

I would leave it in primary for at least a few weeks. I rarely, if ever, rack a beer off primary in under 3 weeks. Patience is the single best tool I've acquired over the years to make better beer.

I'd also advise to use starters. I make 12L batches, and unless my OG is under 1.040 I need a starter using a smack pack. That will also help you make better beer.

 

[HighGravity]

Thanks Nateo! I'm guessing you've tried this with the ESB yeast? It's 7 days in from pitching now and the beer is very clear already, I was wondering about the flocculation and all of a sudden - very very clear yet the chunks still travel a small amount.

Actually this will be the first time to not secondary, every single person in my area recommends it but I'm going to try taking the advice of HBT.

 

[cookietruck]

i jsut used wlp002 which should be the same as 1968.
the beer cleared very quickly, ~5 days and i got better attenuation than expected.
my beer did have the chunks floating around like you mentioned, extremely flocculent yeast.

on reusing the yeast.
why not wash the yeast and then repitch the washed slurry?

 

[Nateo]

The smack-packs are not the "proper" amount of yeast to start with, but once they're in the beer, they'll multiply to the point that repitching isn't really going to be worth it. Even though smack-packs are underpitching, lots of people use them without starters to make beer. But is that beer the best it could be?

The idea of having the proper amount of yeast to start with is more about lessening the stress on the yeast, and limiting the amount of reproduction the yeast has to do in the wort.

 

[cookietruck]

highgravity is talking about dumping a new batch of wort on the existing yeast cake and asked about the krausen in the carboy if i'm not mistaken.

i would:
rack the first batch to the bottling bucket and bottle.
then wash the yeast. (see the sticky at top of this subforum).
clean the carboy.
brew the next batch.
use mrmalty.com to see how much slurry you need.
repitch the washed yeast. (after the jar has been in the fridge a few days the yeast will settle to the bottom...pitch about 200-300ml of yeast in there and it should be good).

 

[Nateo]

Man, my bad. I was thinking of another post. I need some coffee. . .

 

[cookietruck]

Man, my bad. I was thinking of another post. I need some coffee. . .

no worries...i'm dysfunctional if i don't my coffee in the mornin'.

 

[kanzimonson]

Please don't repitch onto the entire yeast cake.

This is my house strain and I love its flocculation, but it does cause difficulties when harvesting. I also like how quickly it ferments. I try to emulate breweries as much as I can in my brewing, so here's how I treat it: I wait until I "think" fermentation is done, and then I taste it. This yeast can produce some serious diacetyl if not treated properly, so my thoughts are: diacetyl is one of the last things to be cleaned up post-fermentation, so if I can't taste the diacetyl, it's okay to rack off the cake. So I keg the beer and let it continue aging in there. Using this method, I made a 1.065 oatmeal stout that I was drinking in SIX DAYS. Obviously it benefited from some more bulk aging, but the point is that the main yeasts' work was done.

As for harvesting, you basically have to settle for saving more trub than with other strains. Pour some de-aerated water into the fermenter, swirl it around, wait no more than 3 minutes, and then pour/rack the liquid into a jug. Swirl this around, let settle for 3 more minutes, then pour into mason jars. You'll actually end up with a layer of trub on top of the yeast. I tell myself it's protection, but I'm probably wrong! It doesn't matter, I use this yeast so frequently that I don't worry about long term storage.

If you want to reuse the yeast but don't want to harvest and save it, then I recommend pouring some sanitized water into the fermenter, swirling it around, and dumping out at least half, maybe even 75%. Then immediately rack your next batch in. Leave more if the next beer is higher gravity.

 

[HighGravity]

Please don't repitch onto the entire yeast cake.

This is my house strain and I love its flocculation, but it does cause difficulties when harvesting. I also like how quickly it ferments. I try to emulate breweries as much as I can in my brewing, so here's how I treat it: I wait until I "think" fermentation is done, and then I taste it. This yeast can produce some serious diacetyl if not treated properly, so my thoughts are: diacetyl is one of the last things to be cleaned up post-fermentation, so if I can't taste the diacetyl, it's okay to rack off the cake. So I keg the beer and let it continue aging in there. Using this method, I made a 1.065 oatmeal stout that I was drinking in SIX DAYS. Obviously it benefited from some more bulk aging, but the point is that the main yeasts' work was done.

As for harvesting, you basically have to settle for saving more trub than with other strains. Pour some de-aerated water into the fermenter, swirl it around, wait no more than 3 minutes, and then pour/rack the liquid into a jug. Swirl this around, let settle for 3 more minutes, then pour into mason jars. You'll actually end up with a layer of trub on top of the yeast. I tell myself it's protection, but I'm probably wrong! It doesn't matter, I use this yeast so frequently that I don't worry about long term storage.

If you want to reuse the yeast but don't want to harvest and save it, then I recommend pouring some sanitized water into the fermenter, swirling it around, and dumping out at least half, maybe even 75%. Then immediately rack your next batch in. Leave more if the next beer is higher gravity.

Thanks alot for the advice! I can't believe you're going from pitching to drinking in a week, unbelievable. For my next batch I'll try bottling after just 7-8 days, then 2 weeks in the bottle and then one week in the fridge.

Regarding the amount of yeast pitched from the large size smack pack, the Wyeast online calculator says the Activator package is fine to pitch into 5 gallons of wort if below 1.060 and fermented above 65 degrees. Thanks for the specific info about the slurry, I think I'll try what you said and use about half for an identical pilsner, and the other half to go into a 1.5 Litre starter for a HG brew.

Cheers

 

[cookietruck]

i don't think i'd bottle any sooner than 14 days in primary...

 

[kanzimonson]

Definitely don't bottle if a beer isn't ready. You absolutely must taste it first, and then it comes down to trusting/knowing your palate to be able to decide if it's done.

I get a lot of hate because people think I keg too quickly. Remember, I refuse to remove the beer from the primary until the yeast have finished their work. Once they are done the next step is aging, and I don't believe that yeast are needed for this step.

I think this idea of "leave your beer in the primary for a minimum of X weeks" is something we'll look back on as faulty information carried over from the old days of homebrewing, just like the use of secondaries. In both cases, the advice is ultimately for your benefit which is why people are reluctant to give it up. But again, I point to big breweries who are able to bottle pretty much all of their average gravity beers within a week.

I know what some people's response will be: commercial breweries have special equipment and filter their beer. My response: you can't filter out defects such as diacetyl. The breweries wait until the yeast are finished, and then they prepare it for packaging. I don't filter, but I do have the advantage of being able to fine my kegs and control the clarification and aging process. AFTER fermentation.

And finally, I once again absolutely admit that my beer tastes better after some bulk aging. I just like to be able to taste the aging evolution. It's so satisfying to one day try a beer that has been on tap for 3-4 weeks and you suddenly realize it's the greatest beer ever.

 

[HighGravity]

Yeah, i get what you're saying. On the local brewery tours in Vancouver, I see they ferment for 4-10 days, then put into bright tanks for at least 2 weeks, 5 weeks if its a lager. I was sort of hoping with all the flocculation of the ESB yeast that it would be ready sooner, then I found out the brewery that waits 5-6 weeks to bottle their lager actually uses 1968 ESB for as a common yeast for half their brews. And they filter with dia-something earth and other finings.