How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

[MagicSmoker]

First off, this is an excellent thread! Thanks to all who have contributed! I intend to try this on my next batch, which will be a CDA/ABA/Black IPA using a single hop (Nelson Sauvin) for flavor/aroma, and Magnum for bittering.

There's a lot of back and forth going on in this thread, though, so I'd like to clarify the general procedure:

1. Add the normal amount of bittering hops for the usual 60 minutes of boil time.
2. Skip the 20/10/5/etc. hop additions completely.
3. After flameout, chill wort down to 180F then add 0.5 oz to 1 oz per gallon of hops for flavor/aroma and steep for 30-45 minutes.
4. Resume rapid cooling of wort down to pitching temp and pitch yeast.
5. Optional: dry-hop with 0.5 oz to 1 oz per gallon for 3-7 days after fermentation completes.

Kal, there was a Basic Brewing podcast where a guy did a similar experiment. He added ~2 lbs of Nelson Sauvin hops to a ~5 gallon batch all at the end of the boil with no other additions. The beer ended up testing at 80 IBU. He called it "Full Nelson". It sounded delicious! You might search for that episode before you try it.

Nelson Sauvin is $3/oz at my LHBS... so, that's nearly $100 worth of hops... Adding this much hops at flameout seems a bit wasteful, given that isomerization of alpha acids effectively ceases around 180-175F and that the flavor/aroma components of the hops effectively boil off above this temperature range. So you get much less utilization of the alpha acids and boil off much of the flavor/aroma compounds to boot. Sounds like a lose-lose to me, or am I missing something?

 

[wobdee]

First off, this is an excellent thread! Thanks to all who have contributed! I intend to try this on my next batch, which will be a CDA/ABA/Black IPA using a single hop (Nelson Sauvin) for flavor/aroma, and Magnum for bittering.

There's a lot of back and forth going on in this thread, though, so I'd like to clarify the general procedure:

1. Add the normal amount of bittering hops for the usual 60 minutes of boil time.
2. Skip the 20/10/5/etc. hop additions completely.
3. After flameout, chill wort down to 180F then add 0.5 oz to 1 oz per gallon of hops for flavor/aroma and steep for 30-45 minutes.
4. Resume rapid cooling of wort down to pitching temp and pitch yeast.
5. Optional: dry-hop with 0.5 oz to 1 oz per gallon for 3-7 days after fermentation completes.




Nelson Sauvin is $3/oz at my LHBS... so, that's nearly $100 worth of hops... Adding this much hops at flameout seems a bit wasteful, given that isomerization of alpha acids effectively ceases around 180-175F and that the flavor/aroma components of the hops effectively boil off above this temperature range. So you get much less utilization of the alpha acids and boil off much of the flavor/aroma compounds to boot. Sounds like a lose-lose to me, or am I missing something?

My take on all this and could be wrong is if you go with the all FO and no boil hops you should add the FO hops right after you turn off the heat and that will allow some bitterness to come through along with tons of flavor and aroma.

If you cool down to 180 or less you may not have enough bitterness to counter all that flavor and aroma but you may perceive some bitterness just because of the mass amount of hops used.

 

[kal]

Nelson Sauvin is $3/oz at my LHBS... so, that's nearly $100 worth of hops... Adding this much hops at flameout seems a bit wasteful, given that isomerization of alpha acids effectively ceases around 180-175F and that the flavor/aroma components of the hops effectively boil off above this temperature range. So you get much less utilization of the alpha acids and boil off much of the flavor/aroma compounds to boot. Sounds like a lose-lose to me, or am I missing something?

If you listen to the podcast there's mention that he got the hops for free. Nelson Sauvin's hard to get now. I wouldn't use it myself. Other hops are sometimes dirt cheap.

Kal

 

[DPBISME]

For instance, one guy adds his flameout hops, turns off the heat and lets the hops steep covered for an hour before starting to chill. He claims this gives the best aroma and routinely does this with his IPA's and IIPA's - using 3-4oz flameout additions. The other guy (professional brewer) starts his whirlpool after cutting the heat, adds his hop additions and continues to whirlpool for about 40 min, before starting to cool the wort. He also says this gives more hop aroma than adding the hops during the whirlpool and cooling quickly.

I thoght DMS might be a problem since it is my understanding it continues to be created as long as the wort is hot...

Of course depending on the style it might be covered up...

I cool mine as quick as possible,,, and you can always "Dry-Hop">

DPB

 

[kal]

Boil hard to get rid the precursors to DMS. If using any large amount of pils malt, boil 90 instead of 60 as it has more to get rid of (true for any beer) ... If in doubt, boil a minimum of 90 for everything.

According to a study, a long wort stand is ok if you have a strong vigorous 90 min boil. See here:

http://518124.cache1.evolutionhosti...tions/2009/RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced Topics.pdf

(See the first slide on page 7 - this is the slide show by Kristen England on the subject of Hop Stands presentation he gave at some AHA thing... it was determined 80 min + dry hopping = maximum flavour and aroma).

This info's also mentioned on page 201 of the new "For the love of Hops" book. The book doesn't have the nifty graphs that this presentation does however.

Kal

 

[TyTanium]

I thoght DMS might be a problem since it is my understanding it continues to be created as long as the wort is hot...

Of course depending on the style it might be covered up...

I cool mine as quick as possible,,, and you can always "Dry-Hop">

If you boil hard most of the precursors are gone anyway.

But an easy solution is to chill quickly down to 160/170ish, then do your flameout hops.

 

[14thstreet]

My experience may differ from others. I recently brewed up Jamil's Dirty Water Brown with Centennial hops as a substitute for Amarillo. Here's a version of the recipe: http://beersmithrecipes.com/viewrecipe/27191/dirty-water-brown-ale

Changes: Removed bittering hops entirely to isolate any bittering of the hopstand. FO hops added after my wort cooled to ~170-180F (which took 15 minutes without forcing it). I let it stand 30 minutes, then chilled.

Result: Wonderful aromas during the fermentation. Not much flavor in the wort because of the sweetness obviously. Some bitterness there but obviously missing the bittering hops I omitted. Finished beer before carbonation? Very little aroma, some flavor, almost a juicy fruit and floral (remember flavor is derived in part from aroma). After carbonation the aromas I experienced during fermentation never re-emerged and the flavor of the hops are mitigated by the grains in a brown ale.

Granted, we are talking about ~2.5 oz/5gal of late hops in a brown ale. May not be the perfect base to try this on but I was expecting a bit more. Centennial could be argued as being somewhat mild compared to stronger newer varieties (Citra, etc). However it seemed to me the late 180F hops provided little to no bitterness (okay) but the flavor/aroma of a much smaller addition (say 1oz or less). In essence I think I wasted some degree of hops.

My thoughts for next time is that I need some exposure to hotter wort, whether it is a 0-5 minute addition with a sufficiently long stand after FO to see if the flavor/aroma sticks around. Some essential chemistry with the wort and resulting activity with yeast was missing, I felt.

 

[stpug]

I recently had a similar experience to 14thstreet (above) on an IPA I brewed using a hop stand (aroma steep). After flameout, I chilled to 170 and added my steeping hops (~2oz mix of centennial, columbus, amarillo) and let steep for 30 minutes. Finished chilling and fermented. The fermentation smells coming from the airlock were AMAZING - I was super pleased. After fermentation completed in 4-5 days, I pulled a sample for gravity and taste testing. The hop flavors and aromas after 4-5 days of primary fermentation was MUCH greater than I expected or had ever experienced - I was super pleased with the steep - there was still a huge hop presence in smell and taste. I left this batch for another 1 week at low 60s, then crash cooled for 3-4 days. After crashing, I transferred to keg and pulled another sample for gravity and tasting. At this point the hop juiciness presence was basically gone - there was a little aroma and flavor left but very little. Naturally I dry hopped this IPA and it came out wonderful, but had some of that 4-5 day hop presence stuck around this brew would have been amazing.

My initial response to this method was super favorable.
My final response was less enthusiastic; but I WILL try again

 

[kal]

Below is the recipe I'm going to brew later today. There's a full pound of hops added after boil at two times during the hop stand. Then dry hopped. It's part of a local APA competition we're having and I figured I'd try something completely different/new. According to Beer Tools Pro, my bitterness should be 0 IBU.

-------------

Electric Hop Stand Pale Ale (batch #154)
10-A American Pale Ale
Author: Kal Wallner

Size: 12.0 gal @ 68 °F
Original Gravity: 1.052 (1.045 - 1.060)
Terminal Gravity: 1.010 (1.010 - 1.015)
Color: 7.53 (5.0 - 14.0)
Alcohol: 5.46% (4.5% - 6.2%)
Bitterness: No friggin' idea

Ingredients:
17.5 lb (89.7%) Standard 2-Row - added during mash
1 lb (5.1%) Caramunich® TYPE III (56.85L) - added during mash
1 lb (5.1%) Carapils®/Carafoam® (2.05L) - added during mash (I normally wouldn't use any with some crytal already in the recipe but the competition rules require it)
1 ea Whirlfloc Tablets (Irish moss) - added during boil, boiled 15 m
2.5 oz (12.8%) Centennial (11.1%) - added end boil
1 oz (5.1%) Cascade (6.0%) - added end boil
1 oz (5.1%) Chinook (11.4%) - added end boil
1 oz (5.1%) Citra (11.1%) - added end boil
5 oz (25.6%) Centennial (11.1%) - added +30 m into hop stand
1.5 oz (7.7%) Cascade (6.0%) - added +30 m into hop stand
2 oz (10.3%) Chinook (11.4%) - added +30 m into hop stand
2 oz (10.3%) Citra (11.1%) - added +30 m into hop stand
12 g Fermentis US-05 Safale US-05 (fermenter #1)
WYeast 1056 American Ale slurry (fermenter #2)
1 oz (5.1%) Centennial (11.1%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
0.5 oz (2.6%) Cascade (6.0%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 oz (5.1%) Chinook (11.4%) - added dry to secondary fermenter
1 oz (5.1%) Citra (11.1%) - added dry to secondary fermenter

Notes:
19.5 lbs of grain. 1.25 qt/lb mash thickness.
Single infusion mash @ 150F for 90 minutes.
Sparge with 168F water for 1-2 hrs.
Boil for 90 mins.
Adding first hops at flameout (0 mins). Whirlpool by gently stirring every ~10 mins. Lid off.
Drop temp to 170F and add +30 min hops. Steep for 80 mins total then chill.
Aerate well (60 seconds with Fizz-X). Hydrate dry yeast for 30-60 mins until frothy prior to pitching.
Ferment at 68F. Dry hop for 7-10 days in secondary.

-----------------

The competition calls for an APA (not an IPA) so my only concern really is over-bittering. I want it to taste around 40 IBU in terms of bitterness, but to be over the top in terms of flavour/aroma.

I'm *hoping* (hopping? ) the bitterness won't be over the top.

If I assume hop stand bitterness is 10% utilization and that only the 0 min flameout hops introduce bitterness (and not those steeped at 170F) then I get 32 IBU. The 170F hops will certainly give some bitterness so probably around 40 IBU total (?). Just about right for an APA.

If I assume that hop stand bitterness is like a 20 min addition like some say (and again assume that those steeped at 170F give no IBUs) then I get 54IBU. The 170F hops will certainly give some bitterness so probably close to 60 IBU total (?). Too high for an APA.

I guess it depends who I believe.

If it wasn't for the competition I'd probably just make it an AIPA and bump up the malt to get to ~7% ABV.

We'll see! If it turns out too bitter, I'll wait a few months or just blend it with some IPA.

Kal

 

[kshuler]

Kal I am VERY MUCH looking forward to the results of this experiment! Thanks for doing that! Brave of you to do a full 12 gallon experiment with all that hops!

Klaus

 

[kal]

I'm committed now!

Water heating up in the HLT:

16 oz of hops blended up (before I split it into 6 and 10 oz):

With a pen for scale:

That's a lot of hops for 12 gallons of APA!

Kal

 

[14thstreet]

I'm committed now! That's a lot of hops for 12 gallons of APA!

I commend your efforts. But geez, that is a lot of hops. I thought this method was a way to s t r e t c h the amount of hops you already use, i.e., get more bang for the same buck? I would think it a no-brainer that you'll get more hop flavor and aroma by using more hops. In such a program though, where's the point of diminishing returns? Maybe I'm too much of a cheapskate!

 

[kal]

I commend your efforts. But geez, that is a lot of hops. I thought this method was a way to s t r e t c h the amount of hops you already use, i.e., get more bang for the same buck?

Yes - good point. That was probably the original intent and the point of the analysis that was done a few years back during the hop shortage. Some of us are taking it to a different place I suppose.

Instead of derailing this thread with more pictures of my brew today I started a new one here:

Step by step of my brewday: Doing a massive hop stand

Kal

 

[1MadScientist]

I would like to brew a Rogue Dead Guy clone tomorrow, as per the interview with the Masterbrewer, John Maier on CYBI, he does a whirlpool hop addition of Stering. Can we say that this is a hop stand? At what temperature should I add my Stering and how long should I let it steep. Should I cover the kettle with a lid? I will not be whirlpooling.

This pdf file I found on this thread, page 16, "RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced Topics" suggests a long stand of 80 minutes;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/ho...out-additions-213803/index16.html#post5005613

Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?

Thanks..., in advance.

 

[SilverZero]

I would like to brew a Rogue Dead Guy clone tomorrow, as per the interview with the Masterbrewer, John Maier on CYBI, he does a whirlpool hop addition of Stering. Can we say that this is a hop stand? At what temperature should I add my Stering and how long should I let it steep. Should I cover the kettle with a lid? I will not be whirlpooling.

This pdf file I found on this thread, page 16, "RDRM-BBB-ATRM1-Advanced Topics" suggests a long stand of 80 minutes;
https://www.homebrewtalk.com/f13/ho...out-additions-213803/index16.html#post5005613

Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?

Thanks..., in advance.

In my opinion, you should cool to 180F, toss in your hops, let it stand 30-45 minutes, then cool and drain the kettle. If you can stay at 180F for the hop stand, even better, but it will retain a lot of heat on its own. You can cover if you want, I never do and I've never had a problem but it won't hurt as hopefully a long, rolling boil and cooling to 180F will decrease DMS production.

 

[kal]

Is anybody going out to 80 minutes?

I did yesterday in my brew. Can't say how much more it does than the 50 they quoted in the article because I haven't tried that. In fact this is my first hop stand. Temperature dropped fairly quickly so I set my kettle to 170F to hold it there and not go below. It hit the 170F point only a little more than 30 mins into the stand.

Kal

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

Maybe a question for a new thread but does/has anyone let their steeping hops go into the fermenter? Was thinking about this the other day. I know I may get some standard response such as "the CO2 will scrub the flavors", etc. but just wondering if anyone's actually tried it. Just wondering and thinking about how I can get all I can out of those steeping hops flavor and aroma.

P.S. I am also aware that this could create logistical problems with racking later but I think there are ways to deal with that - not trying to create a discussion on how to rack when there are hops in the fermenter.

 

[markg388]

So FWIW I've been hopping my IPA's like this for about the last 6 months:

1oz bittering
.5oz - 5 min
1oz - flameout, chill to 170
2oz - let stand for 30 mins @ 170, then chill and ferment as normal
3oz - dry hop in the keg

I guess I should say I "start" the hop stand at 170 and allow it to slowly cool over the next 30 minutes on my deck.

I'm consistently VERY happy with the results. Couldn't tell you a commercial IPA I'd prefer over my own these days. This has been a good thread for me .

 

[TrickyDick]

Great thread!

I had brewed a few beers a couple weeks ago. I had some chilling issues and inadvertently did hop stands for up to 60 min on several brews including an APA and IIPA. I also used a Blichmann HopRocket for these two.

I've only used the HopRocket on one other brew. That was also a APA and I made 10 gallons. I kegged half and left the other half on the secondary waiting for keg one to kick, then got too lazy/busy to keg it. Sat shielded from light and with water in airlock for a good 8 month at room temp 68-75 F. Finally kegged it. Both this and the first half were by far the most hop aroma and flavor beers I've ever made. I did no hop stand on those other than chill time about 10-15 min from immediate post boil temps. Was very impressed with the stability of the aroma over time that the HopRocket contributed.
I am planning to use the HopRocket as a Randalizer as well at some point.

Ill be excited to taste the two inadvertent hop stand plus HopRocket beers. Both are also being dry hopped.

TD

 

[mtnagel]

Maybe a question for a new thread but does/has anyone let their steeping hops go into the fermenter? Was thinking about this the other day. I know I may get some standard response such as "the CO2 will scrub the flavors", etc. but just wondering if anyone's actually tried it. Just wondering and thinking about how I can get all I can out of those steeping hops flavor and aroma.

P.S. I am also aware that this could create logistical problems with racking later but I think there are ways to deal with that - not trying to create a discussion on how to rack when there are hops in the fermenter.

Sure. I do it all the time. I don't think I've used a hop bag since my first few brews. They settle down to the trub during fermentation and any that get into the bottles settle to to the bottom of the bottles during refrigeration.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

@mtnagel have you tried fermenting with the steeping hops removed? Just wondering if there is a difference or benefit flavor wise if the hops are left in the fermenter or removed. I naturally gravitate toward not fermenting with all those hops in my fermentation vessel as I would imagine most brewers whirlpool or avoid hops/break/trub in the fermenter. But if there is a benefit in flavor or aroma with letting the hops into the FV then I am interested in it. Anyone else have success or input regarding allowing the steeping hops in the fermenter? Do you get more flavor/aroma this way?

 

[mtnagel]

No, I haven't tested it both ways. Would be curious what others say, but I don't think it would make a differences.

 

[gointomexico]

Subscribed!

 

[TrickyDick]

@mtnagel have you tried fermenting with the steeping hops removed? Just wondering if there is a difference or benefit flavor wise if the hops are left in the fermenter or removed. I naturally gravitate toward not fermenting with all those hops in my fermentation vessel as I would imagine most brewers whirlpool or avoid hops/break/trub in the fermenter. But if there is a benefit in flavor or aroma with letting the hops into the FV then I am interested in it. Anyone else have success or input regarding allowing the steeping hops in the fermenter? Do you get more flavor/aroma this way?

I've never noticed a difference in hop aroma when I used to dump entire kettle content into primary fermenter, compared to when I started leaving the hot break, and spent hops in the kettle. So I don't think hop matter in the primary offers any aroma benefit. I think it has been suggested and makes some common sense, that aroma compounds could be scrubbed from the beer by vigorous fermentation and CO2 production. This may be why dry hops are usually added to the secondary or serving keg. What I did notice when I started trying to leave hot break and spent hops in kettle, was a better flavored beer. Less "homebrew"ish, and cleaner finish in the glass. Hard to pinpoint, but I think in part the improvement might come from leaving trub behind, as well as other improved techniques and methods as my experience and skill improved over time that I can put a finger on exactly.

The bottom line though. Is that I don't think it makes sense that, nor have I noticed any, beneficial contribution to hop aroma by leaving hops in primary fermenter.

TD

 

[terrapinj]

tried this technique once with an IPL using normal late additions and then a nice big 30min hopstand once the wort cooled below 160° - really noticed a brighter and longer lasting flavor/aroma

brewing a galaxy APA this weekend and trying no additions during the actual boil

.75oz FWH
1oz flameout - 30min stand
1oz 30min hop stand when wort is around 160°
1.25oz dryhop in keg

kegged this up this weekend

big flavor and aroma of mango with some pineapple, never used galaxy by itself or conan yeast so it's hard to clearly distinguish where the flavors/aroma are coming from, my guess is mostly hops and some fruity support from the yeast

really nice firm bitterness despite the expected soft bitterness from FWH - BS calculated around 47IBU and the flat sample def tasted in that ballpark

added 1.25oz of galaxy and will pull a carbed sample in the next couple days

 

[TheHairyHop]

I made an IPA this past weekend.

Using the Zombie Dust malt bill, I added .5 oz each of Chinook, Amaraillo, Simcoe, and Citra above 180 for 30 minutes and then the same amounts for 30 more under 180 (I think it was 165). I didn't add any bittering hops. I'm going to dry hop with the same hops, but I might be flexible when I taste it on dry hop. I'll let you guys know how it goes.

Tasted a sample before dry hopping today. Very juicy, slightly piney and overall very good. I dry hopped with .5 Oz of Chinook, .5 Oz of Simcoe, and an Oz of Citra. We'll see how it goes!

 

[wobdee]

Tasted a sample before dry hopping today. Very juicy, slightly piney and overall very good. I dry hopped with .5 Oz of Chinook, .5 Oz of Simcoe, and an Oz of Citra. We'll see how it goes!

How was the bitterness without adding boiling hops? Did it seem like enough for an IPA?

 

[terrapinj]

apologies if it was already covered in the thread, but has anyone figured out how to add hopstand additions above isomerization temps into beersmith? I know the formulas aren't concrete and most suggest it's roughly equivalent to a 20min addition

aroma steep won't add any IBU - i know I can enter it as a 20min boil addition but i'd like to have it reflect the correct addition time

 

[wobdee]

In my limited experience in this technique I'd have to say there is some bitterness that goes with large flame out additions and I would guess about the same as a 3-5 minute boil.

I've done some IPA's with a small 60 or FWH addition then large FO addition and they all had plenty of IPA type bitterness just like a 60 15 10 5 boil addition but with a little less harshness and more flavor.

Plan on brewing an all hop stand only APA in the near future to see what happens.

 

[TheHairyHop]

How was the bitterness without adding boiling hops? Did it seem like enough for an IPA?

Tough to say because I didn't take a very large sample. I would venture to say, no. My hunch is that since I added 0 true bittering hops, the notion that the flavor of hops can accentuate bitterness does not apply.

I'll keep updating this thread on my IPA though. Right now, I'm wondering if 3 Oz of dry hop was enough