How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

[terrapinj]

In my limited experience in this technique I'd have to say there is some bitterness that goes with large flame out additions and I would guess about the same as a 3-5 minute boil.

I've done some IPA's with a small 60 or FWH addition then large FO addition and they all had plenty of IPA type bitterness just like a 60 15 10 5 boil addition but with a little less harshness and more flavor.

Plan on brewing an all hop stand only APA in the near future to see what happens.

most of the articles etc i've seen say somewhere around 10-15% utilization

hertic uses this method for one of their beers and adds no hops during the boil and gets something like 65IBU still

my plan is to brew a blonde with around 2oz of Mt Hood at flameout as the sole hop and let it sit for 30-45min before starting the chiller

 

[TheHairyHop]

Tough to say because I didn't take a very large sample. I would venture to say, no. My hunch is that since I added 0 true bittering hops, the notion that the flavor of hops can accentuate bitterness does not apply.

I'll keep updating this thread on my IPA though. Right now, I'm wondering if 3 Oz of dry hop was enough

I dry hopped with 1 oz Chinook, 1 oz Simcoe and 2 oz Citra. Bottled it today. Tastes great, but not bitter. I don't want to take a numerical guess, but it's below a brown ale. Probably Pilsner level bitterness. I didn't get any fade in the hop flavor via fermentation though. Tasted just as delicious before primary as it did after

 

[TrickyDick]

Kegged? I wonder if you could add hop extract oil (hopshot) to increas bitterness if desired?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Bottled. I don't mind. It was an experimentation and I got what I wanted from it. It's basically hop nectar

 

[wobdee]

I'm planning on a 2.5 gal 1.050 Pale Ale with 2 oz of Citra FO hops and 1oz dry hop. But I'm also considering 3oz Citra FO and no dry hops. What do you guys think? I'd like to forgo the dry hops if I could get a similar aroma from a larger FO addition but not sure that would be the case and maybe I'd end up with too much Citra flavor and little aroma?

 

[TheHairyHop]

I'm planning on a 2.5 gal 1.050 Pale Ale with 2 oz of Citra FO hops and 1oz dry hop. But I'm also considering 3oz Citra FO and no dry hops. What do you guys think? I'd like to forgo the dry hops if I could get a similar aroma from a larger FO addition but not sure that would be the case and maybe I'd end up with too much Citra flavor and little aroma?

I did FO with citra and some others. It provided a good amount of flavor, but not too much aroma. I will say though, I feel as if I got more citra flavor from the FO than the DH, BUT I got more flavor from the simcoe and chinook when dry hopping

 

[14thstreet]

wobdee, there was a study done by Rock Bottom Brewery and they found that you get the best of both worlds when splitting your finishing hops between FO and DH. So in your case, the first option or a variation of, may provide you with more aroma.

However, a couple years ago I brewed with 1.75oz/2.5 gal Amarillo at 15 minutes as the only hop addition and aroma was surprisingly wonderful. Like HairyHop's experience, you have to try it to discover how it works for you - there may be no set rules.

 

[wobdee]

wobdee, there was a study done by Rock Bottom Brewery and they found that you get the best of both worlds when splitting your finishing hops between FO and DH. So in your case, the first option or a variation of, may provide you with more aroma.

However, a couple years ago I brewed with 1.75oz/2.5 gal Amarillo at 15 minutes as the only hop addition and aroma was surprisingly wonderful. Like HairyHop's experience, you have to try it to discover how it works for you - there may be no set rules.

Yeah, I think I read that article. I suppose since it will only be a small batch I could try both and see what happens.

 

[TheHairyHop]

My hunch is that the different oils and acids that relate to unique flavors in each hop will optimally make their way into the beer via different methods. I.e. The fruit flavor of citra and Amarillo may soak in better under hot conditions rather than cold. Note that this is just an example pulled out of my arse, but you might get my drift

 

[Randy_Bugger]

BeerSmith has a good article about late hopping and the boiling point temperatures of the various hop oils. Myrcene is the lowest at 147*F.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

 

[homebrewhaha]

BeerSmith has a good article about late hopping and the boiling point temperatures of the various hop oils. Myrcene is the lowest at 147*F.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2013/01/21/late-hop-additions-and-hop-oils-in-beer-brewing/

Nice article, and thanks to all who contributed to this thread. Tried this method last night for the first time with a Mosaic IPA. By a happy accident I cooled my wort a little more than expected post-boil and ended up steeping my "0 minute" additions at 145° for 80 minutes. I had plenty of bitterness from my FWH, so I was only looking for flavor and aroma in the hop stand, so it all worked out! The gravity sample was miles beyond any hop flavor I've tasted so far in one of my beers. Can't wait to taste this. Here's my hop schedule in case anyone is interested.

Hops
Amount IBU's Name Time AA %
2.00 ozs 48.73 Nugget First Wort 12.30
1.00 ozs 17.99 Simcoe 30 mins 13.00
2.00 ozs 0.00 Mosaic 0 mins 11.60
1.00 ozs 0.00 Simcoe 0 mins 13.00
1.00 ozs 0.00 Nugget 0 mins 12.30
2.00 ozs (dry) Mosaic 4 days 11.60
1.00 ozs (dry) Simcoe 4 days 13.00

 

[SilverZero]

I just read another great article on hop stands from BYO.com.

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

 

[DeutschMark]

Definitely great thread!

We brewed a DIPA yesterday as part of our "Extending the Seasons" class and used 1oz of Cascade (pellet) @ 165F and then went through 2oz of leaf (hop rocket)

As far as getting the best hop aroma around flameout, what temp does everyone use for the hop rocket/back?

 

[TheHairyHop]

Definitely great thread!

We brewed a DIPA yesterday as part of our "Extending the Seasons" class and used 1oz of Cascade (pellet) @ 165F and then went through 2oz of leaf (hop rocket)

As far as getting the best hop aroma around flameout, what temp does everyone use for the hop rocket/back?

I've never used one. Do you have good results? I figure that cold hopping before fermentation results in a loss of flavor due to carbonation. That's the urban legend anyways. I'm thinking of doing a controlled experiment to prove/disprove

 

[Krovitz]

I've never used one. Do you have good results? I figure that cold hopping before fermentation results in a loss of flavor due to carbonation. That's the urban legend anyways. I'm thinking of doing a controlled experiment to prove/disprove

Definitely keep us posted. I've gotten great flavor and aroma from late additions without dry hopping but it seems unpredictable.

 

[ncbrewer]

I just read another great article on hop stands from BYO.com.

http://byo.com/component/k2/item/2808-hop-stands

Really good article. Thanks for the link.

 

[SilverZero]

I also just listened to the BeerSmith podcast with James Altwies in which he mentions that his recommendation for hop aroma additions is post-boil and at 110F or below.

The more I learn, the more I don't know.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/05/13/hop-chemistry-and-beer-with-james-altwies-beersmith-podcast-38/

 

[TheHairyHop]

Just tried my IPA described further back in this thread. Fantastic. Will do it again soon

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I also just listened to the BeerSmith podcast with James Altwies in which he mentions that his recommendation for hop aroma additions is post-boil and at 110F or below.

The more I learn, the more I don't know.

http://beersmith.com/blog/2012/05/13/hop-chemistry-and-beer-with-james-altwies-beersmith-podcast-38/

He also said a 2-3 day dry hop is plenty of time to extract the aromatic oils from the hops.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

The lower the temperature, the longer it takes to extract the aromatic oils. So a hop stand at 140* for 20 minutes might be similar to a hop stand at 110* for 45 minutes or a hop stand at 160* for 10 minutes.

He didn't recommend a time period for a hop stand at 110*. Damn it!

 

[SilverZero]

The lower the temperature, the longer it takes to extract the aromatic oils. So a hop stand at 140* for 20 minutes might be similar to a hop stand at 110* for 45 minutes or a hop stand at 160* for 10 minutes.

He didn't recommend a time period for a hop stand at 110*. Damn it!

But the higher the temperature the more of the various oil fractions are volatilized and lost. Hop-backs and torpedoes aim to get around this by making it so the extracted oils have nowhere to go until they are cooled and "stuck" in solution.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too.

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.

 

[TrickyDick]

Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too.

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.

It's extremely easy to build your own immersion chiller.

Three parts, simple wrench, and hopefully, a CO2 cylinder or corny keg or something else to form the coil about, takes less than an hour.

Get the dishwasher compression fittings for your size copper coil from Home Depot. Wrap coil around the cylinder, and attach the fittings.

This one I made during the dancing show my SWMBO was watching.

I agree though. Need to have someone nail the chemistry expert down to specifics!!

I think that if truly ALL the essential oils were instantly vaporized when hops added at flameout, that there would be no hopheads, and that some of the oils must survive into the beer. It's kinda like mash enzymes, they don't instantly flip on and off.

But this thread has been nice. I am thinking about doing a zombie dust clone with the regular additions, plus a hop stand with three additions at three temp points, and finish it off with a hoprocket packed with leaf Citra!

TD

 

[SilverZero]

Somebody needs to email that guy.

I have a plate chiller. I guess I need an immersion chiller too.

I think I'll try dumping a gallon of ice cold water at flame out and see how low that gets me next time.

That's why I just sold my plate chiller and went back to my IC. I'm thinking of building one into my kettle. . . .

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I contacted James Altwies of Gorst Valley Hops and he provided some very good information. I'm waiting to hear back from him to get permission to post it here.

 

[Randy_Bugger]

I asked James Altwies of Gorst Valley Hops to explain why he recommended steeping temperatures in the 110-120F range, if higher temperatures were useful and to suggest a steeping time for various temperatures. This was his reply:

The lowest vaporization point for farnescene is 79F, caryophyllene is 140F, myrcene is ~120F and Humulene is way up around 250F. So it really depends on the hop you are using and when you are adding them. This is a duration issue as you mention and estimating how long at what temp is very tricky. We can calculate it but that's very ugly.

We have found that many of these oils are already damaged or missing in conventionally dried hops (dried at 150F for 8 hrs) so your best bet is to find low temp hops or use your own. What I'm saying is you may not see a big difference in addition temps or steeping times with conventional home brew store pellets or cones.

That being said, the best answer I can give is it depends on the hop you are using and what aroma character you are looking for. If you want musty and funky from Saaz then low temp is best for farnescene. If you are after herbal then you want Humulene and can steep at higher temps. If you are looking for floral then myrcene is the oil and low temp is best.

Again, the hop variety is most critical. Look for the oil characteristics and know what aroma you are after and choose accordingly. A hop with 70% Humulene will need to steep for less time than a hop with 40% Humulene to get herbal character. If you are going for herbal and the Humulene is 40% and the myrcene is at 60% you would steep at a higher temp to drive off the floral and keep the herbal.

On the other hand if you wanted big floral without the herbal you would need to choose a hop high in myrcene and very low in Humulene since you will need to steep at a lower temp. You will pull both oils into solution.

So there isn't a steeping time or temperature that will be universally ideal. It depends on the hops you are using and what you want to extract from them.

 

[wobdee]

Interesting info on the different hop oils Randy. So how do you find out how much of these oils are in different hops? My hop packs just have Alfa and beta on them, is there a chart or link that would have more info?

 

[Krovitz]

I've seen 3 different boiling points for myrcene. Ray daniels says 165, beersmith.com says 147 and now your guy is saying 120. Can we agree on anything?!

 

[TheHairyHop]

To be fair, if you just toss a lid on the pot and keep temps reasonable then you'll probably capture most of the volatile oils. Just cool it before removing the lid

 

[TrickyDick]

The book for the love of hops, goes into a lot of detail about flavor and aroma compounds, and the challenges in how to identify them by smell, both qualitatively and quantitatively by mass-spec/photo-spec methods. There are charts, and discussion of other compounds like gerialool, and others that's a bit hard to comprehend. After watching the podcast, I am going to re-read and maybe get a better understanding.

The book also documents the oil % and other vital characteristics of all hops, incl all of the hot new varieties available.

It is a very interesting read and I've only just begun. It is quite clear however that when it comes to Hops, there is a certain amount of mystery or zymurgy going on as far as what is happening with the flavors and aromas, and why. Science hasn't fully puzzled out all of the nitty gritty detail on this yet, and possibly never will- at least from my standpoint in the book where I am at now.

TD