canyonbrewer
Well-Known Member
do you cover with lid during the steep? also...are you recirculating during the steep?
How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?
- Thread starter bierhaus15
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Love this thread! Some great discussion here, lets keep it going!
I was thinking about doing a 2 oz flame out addition with some Falconers Flight, and whirlpooling it for 30 mins or so. Giving it the occasional stir and letting it sit with the lid on before cooling. I also plan on dry hopping with another 2 oz of this hop type as well. I love hops and hop aroma. Hope this works well!
I was thinking about doing a 2 oz flame out addition with some Falconers Flight, and whirlpooling it for 30 mins or so. Giving it the occasional stir and letting it sit with the lid on before cooling. I also plan on dry hopping with another 2 oz of this hop type as well. I love hops and hop aroma. Hope this works well!
I just read the article on using Late Addition Hops only. Check out www.mrmalty.com . I'm a big fan of smooth (medium) bitterness, huge hop flavor, and huge hop aroma. I'll be making an IPA with a BASIC grain bill and US-05 this weekend and will be using a blend of Amarillo and Simcoe hops at 20, 10, and 5 only. I'll post my results in a few weeks.
CraigT
Well-Known Member
This sounds like something I may try on my next pale or ipa. But one thing i was reading about recently and was wondering about is dms not being boiled off during the hop steep. Does nobody worry about this because the hop flavor will cover any off flavor? Or do most people not really worry about dms at all. I never had notice any dms type favors in my 25 brews before I ever heard of it.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
DMS precursors should be long gone by the end of a 60 minute boil, (90 min if you are using pilsner malt!), so no worries there.
I'd forgotten about this thread up until I saw it revived today. Just want to say, I've been doing 10-30 min recircs after flameout before chilling since I first read this, sometimes first chilling to 190 and holding it there for 10-30 min, sometimes just letting it sit hot at 210 (down to about 195 after 20 min). With all of them, I think I'm getting much better hop aroma than if I had started chilling immediately.
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Lennie
Well-Known Member
Sounds good. You guys baggng your hops or using a hop spider? I just wonder if the difference might be less pronounced when adding pellets loose. Although if its like tea, theres a difference between steeping vs boiling.
shortyjacobs
Well-Known Member
I'm using loose pellets, and the difference is definitely noticeable. The extended whirlpool after flameout also helps to collect the hops in the center.
I will comment on the science of this…
Hops have many specific aromatic contributors that can favorably affect a beer’s aroma if utilized properly. The most important contributor when it comes to delivering that blast hop aroma is a hydrocarbon compound known as myrcene.
Myrcene is an important part of the essential aromatic oils in hops. Perfumeries frequently harness its power. And commercial American IPA brewers strongly favor hefty late and dryhop additions of high level myrcene hops like Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget, US Northern Brewer, and Horizon. Other hops like Columbus, Summit, Galaxy, and Chinook have moderately high amounts myrcene while still having very high total oil levels. The interesting thing about hops like these is that despite having high total oil levels and high myrcene, these hops tend to have low levels of caryophyllene, humulene, farnesene, and selinene. The opposite is true for European Noble hops which have low total oils, low myrcene, and moderately high levels of everything else.
Myrcene is highly volatile and subject to heat and oxidation. Thus it is found at very low levels when used early in the boil, but the levels are much higher during mid flameout and dryhop. A 60 minute hop stand during mid flameout (anywhere between 100-150 F) have provided the best results for me. This is easily attained by using a slow-cooling ice bath as opposed to a fast cooling wort chiller. I do this in my stainless steel sink, which covers the kettle about 3/4 of the way with ice-water. It quickly melts so you really need to keep re-icing to realistically cool it in one hour. Don't be afraid of adding ice. The kettle will be primarily covered to aid sanitation (aside from 2 or 3 short whirlpools). A covered kettle is necessary after the boil, but it retains a ton of heat.
I’m so glad I did not buy a wort chiller because I would have never stumbled on the benefits of a long hop stand, which has given me insane hop aroma. I always couple a long hop stand with a substantial dryhop at the rate of 0.50 to 1.00 ounce hops per gallon of beer (0.65 average), depending on gravity, time, and technique of the brewer. So both techniques in combination have really worked to wow me and my friends.
As with most other aspects of hop quality, there is a difference between whole hops and pellets as well. Whole hops can have as much as 70% more myrcene than pellets of the same variety, but that difference is flipped when the wort is hopped as only 5% of myrcene is extracted from whole hops compared to 17% from pellets. This is why I prefer pellets for flameout and dryhop additions. Pellets also release more of their oils in a shorter time frame. However, I try to stick with leaf hops during the boil because their quality is typically better since it cannot be masked through processing like pellet hops.
In closing, you're really looking for the following:
*High hop oil content
*High myrcene
*Low levels of the other Noble hop compounds
*Long hop stand between 100-150 F
*Using pellet hops late
*Using a slow-working ice bath with a couple whirlpools
*Implementing a substantial dryhop in combo with long hop stand
Hops have many specific aromatic contributors that can favorably affect a beer’s aroma if utilized properly. The most important contributor when it comes to delivering that blast hop aroma is a hydrocarbon compound known as myrcene.
Myrcene is an important part of the essential aromatic oils in hops. Perfumeries frequently harness its power. And commercial American IPA brewers strongly favor hefty late and dryhop additions of high level myrcene hops like Citra, Amarillo, Simcoe, Centennial, Nugget, US Northern Brewer, and Horizon. Other hops like Columbus, Summit, Galaxy, and Chinook have moderately high amounts myrcene while still having very high total oil levels. The interesting thing about hops like these is that despite having high total oil levels and high myrcene, these hops tend to have low levels of caryophyllene, humulene, farnesene, and selinene. The opposite is true for European Noble hops which have low total oils, low myrcene, and moderately high levels of everything else.
Myrcene is highly volatile and subject to heat and oxidation. Thus it is found at very low levels when used early in the boil, but the levels are much higher during mid flameout and dryhop. A 60 minute hop stand during mid flameout (anywhere between 100-150 F) have provided the best results for me. This is easily attained by using a slow-cooling ice bath as opposed to a fast cooling wort chiller. I do this in my stainless steel sink, which covers the kettle about 3/4 of the way with ice-water. It quickly melts so you really need to keep re-icing to realistically cool it in one hour. Don't be afraid of adding ice. The kettle will be primarily covered to aid sanitation (aside from 2 or 3 short whirlpools). A covered kettle is necessary after the boil, but it retains a ton of heat.
I’m so glad I did not buy a wort chiller because I would have never stumbled on the benefits of a long hop stand, which has given me insane hop aroma. I always couple a long hop stand with a substantial dryhop at the rate of 0.50 to 1.00 ounce hops per gallon of beer (0.65 average), depending on gravity, time, and technique of the brewer. So both techniques in combination have really worked to wow me and my friends.
As with most other aspects of hop quality, there is a difference between whole hops and pellets as well. Whole hops can have as much as 70% more myrcene than pellets of the same variety, but that difference is flipped when the wort is hopped as only 5% of myrcene is extracted from whole hops compared to 17% from pellets. This is why I prefer pellets for flameout and dryhop additions. Pellets also release more of their oils in a shorter time frame. However, I try to stick with leaf hops during the boil because their quality is typically better since it cannot be masked through processing like pellet hops.
In closing, you're really looking for the following:
*High hop oil content
*High myrcene
*Low levels of the other Noble hop compounds
*Long hop stand between 100-150 F
*Using pellet hops late
*Using a slow-working ice bath with a couple whirlpools
*Implementing a substantial dryhop in combo with long hop stand
AngerManagement
Well-Known Member
I haven't tried the long hop stand, having just tried no-chill for the first time the other night on my latest batch. But I do know that substantial amounts of dry hops makes a big difference; I used 4 oz in my last 5-gal batch of pale ale. The result was orgasmic.
tonyolympia
Well-Known Member
bobbrews said:
This part confuses me. Is there any reason you couldn't just use an immersion chiller to get below 170F, and then turn off the chiller and begin your hop stand? That's what I do, and it takes me about a minute to reach 170. When I'm ready, I just turn the water back on and chill to pitching temps.
Sure, but I don't have an immersion chiller. I simply let the covered wort cool slightly in the ice bath after the first whirlpool, and after about 20 minutes when it cools down a bit, I will add the mid-flameout hops, whirlpool again, drain the extra melted water and add more ice to the bath.
@tonyolympia
Since you chimed in about using an immersion chiller, I've been trying my own approach by using an immersion chiller in conjunction with an ice bath. I bring the wort quickly to 160-ish with the immersion chiller then rely on the ice bath the rest of the way (160 down to 65). That way, the post-boil hops can steep in the warm (not scalding hot) wort for a good 20-30 minutes. The aroma and clarity is better than ever so I'm guessing the cold break isn't that big of a deal. Perhaps achieving a fast cold break by chilling fast from boiling (212 F) to pitching temps (65 F) isn't as important as quickly cooling to a certain temp. like 160 or 140 F (down from 212)... who knows. I guess you could rely on the wort chiller for the duration, by simply turning it off when needed, but I wanted to experiment with a longer steep in the 90-150 F temp range, as opposed to a 20 minute steep at 150-160F quickly followed by a fast drop to 65.
Since you chimed in about using an immersion chiller, I've been trying my own approach by using an immersion chiller in conjunction with an ice bath. I bring the wort quickly to 160-ish with the immersion chiller then rely on the ice bath the rest of the way (160 down to 65). That way, the post-boil hops can steep in the warm (not scalding hot) wort for a good 20-30 minutes. The aroma and clarity is better than ever so I'm guessing the cold break isn't that big of a deal. Perhaps achieving a fast cold break by chilling fast from boiling (212 F) to pitching temps (65 F) isn't as important as quickly cooling to a certain temp. like 160 or 140 F (down from 212)... who knows. I guess you could rely on the wort chiller for the duration, by simply turning it off when needed, but I wanted to experiment with a longer steep in the 90-150 F temp range, as opposed to a 20 minute steep at 150-160F quickly followed by a fast drop to 65.
jtrainer
BeerCzar I am
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Excellent thread ppl....
one thing I didn't catch anyone asking and I've been doing some thinking on this recently and was wondering...
My 60 min additions (usually kept minimal on IPA/APAs) goes in my paint strainer bag along with all other additions. I've found my bitterness on some APAs is higher than my IPAs when trying to obtain more hop flavor.
Would it help if I pulled the hop bag out at flame out and dropped in a new / second bag for my flame out hops and whirl-pooling?
one thing I didn't catch anyone asking and I've been doing some thinking on this recently and was wondering...
My 60 min additions (usually kept minimal on IPA/APAs) goes in my paint strainer bag along with all other additions. I've found my bitterness on some APAs is higher than my IPAs when trying to obtain more hop flavor.
Would it help if I pulled the hop bag out at flame out and dropped in a new / second bag for my flame out hops and whirl-pooling?
>.Would it help if I pulled the hop bag out at flame out and dropped in a new / second bag for my flame out hops and whirl-pooling?
Thats what I was thinking of doing, and I'd like to hear what others do.
Thats what I was thinking of doing, and I'd like to hear what others do.
NewDecadeBrewery
Well-Known Member
jtrainer said:
Are you concerned about additional bitterness from your 60 minute additions during the steep phase? Contrary to my last post I have learned that bitterness can be obtained just from the steep and I have been trying to calibrate my recipes as if a 30 minute steep at around 180 - 200 degrees counts as about the same as a 20 min boil addition. Now what I am wondering is does that take a 60 min addition and turn it into an 80 min addition, thus creating more bittering than intended in the recipe? If it works like this then yes pulling out your bittering charge during the steep makes sense. Either that or move it up 20 minutes so it would be boiled for 40 minutes then steeped with the FO hops for 20 minutes. This is what I did for my last pale ale and the bittering is real soft while aromatic and flavor additions are nicely represented although I think I used 2.5 oz for a 1052 APA and it needs to be more. I keep upping the FO each time I brew this recipe and I may need to reach that 0.65 to 1 oz. per gallon that others have spoken of on this thread. The bittering is very pleasant though with this technique.
Silverbullet
Well-Known Member
Subscribed!
I find this discussion interesting. I know that homebrewing and commercial brewing are not directly comparable. At work we add hops at flame out, whirlpool 15 minutes, let stand 20 minutes. The kettle is generally in the 200ish range. I have no idea what actual isometrization is at that point. I am no commercial brewing expert, just following methods as per those above me, haha. This makes me wonder what kind of results you could get if you ran your worth through a HX to 150-180ish into a seperate whirlpool vessel what results would be like. . . mostly curiousity.
For homebrewing, I usually FWH, 15,10,5 and at Flame out I add a big addition than chill immediately. Perhaps I am going to try and drop to 150-180ish and then add my zero hops and let rest 15-20 minutes to see what kind of a difference it makes. When I tried to do a 15 minute whirlpool and let my hops stand for 20 minutes directly after flameout the results were less than ideal. This however could have been a variety of other factors. Who knows.
For homebrewing, I usually FWH, 15,10,5 and at Flame out I add a big addition than chill immediately. Perhaps I am going to try and drop to 150-180ish and then add my zero hops and let rest 15-20 minutes to see what kind of a difference it makes. When I tried to do a 15 minute whirlpool and let my hops stand for 20 minutes directly after flameout the results were less than ideal. This however could have been a variety of other factors. Who knows.
Just kegged a beer i brewed a couple weeks ago where i chilled the wort to 170 before adding a huge addition and did a 30 minute hopstand. It's quite a wrecking ball of flavor and aroma I must say... I'm pretty impressed. Can't wait until it's carbed and dry hopped.
BAJones
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Great thread, so it seems like a lot of people have success from adding the flame out hops after cooling to 170-180 then letting steep for 20-30 minutes. I will try this on an IPA this weekend. I'm going to remove my FWH and late additions (15-5) after chilling to 170-180 but before adding the flame out hops to steep for 30 minutes.
SilverZero
Well-Known Member
Bit of an old thread, but I was wondering about how this process of cooling to 180F or lower and then doing a hop stand affects the cold break. Isn't the idea of getting a good cold break based on cooling rapidly? Or is it still good to chill down to 180F or so, do a 30-minute hop stand, and then chill from there to pitching temp?
Answer if you know, but I'll also try to come back with my own experience after I brew this week. My plan is to cut the flame after a 90-minute boil, pull the hop spider, chill with my IC to 180F, then do a new spider bag with my aroma addition for 30 mins (covered). Then I'll pull that bag and chill the rest of the way, then whirlpool for 45 mins to allow the trub to cone up, and then drain to my fermenter. I'm going for a maxed-out IIPA, so if this all works harmoniously I'll have myself a house method.
Answer if you know, but I'll also try to come back with my own experience after I brew this week. My plan is to cut the flame after a 90-minute boil, pull the hop spider, chill with my IC to 180F, then do a new spider bag with my aroma addition for 30 mins (covered). Then I'll pull that bag and chill the rest of the way, then whirlpool for 45 mins to allow the trub to cone up, and then drain to my fermenter. I'm going for a maxed-out IIPA, so if this all works harmoniously I'll have myself a house method.
SilverZero
Well-Known Member
Maybe, depending on what you're looking for. I may be mistaken, but my understanding is that dry hops and aroma hops will give different characteristics (flavor vs. aroma). There's obviously a lot of overlap, but this is one of those things that I wish I could do a scientific side-by-side test for.
Great thread. Subscribed.
You may have read them, but some of us haven't. Please enlighten us on what is being said in similar discussions.
?????? Hops added at strike-out are aroma hops. That's what you get from dry hopping too. There are no flavor hops being discussed here. However, I will agree that both aroma hops and dry hopping do produce different results.
KaSaBiS
Well-Known Member
If I understand correctly, his context is flameout hops when a hopstand is utilized, adds bitterness. if you cool immediately then you are right and it is strictly aroma hops in theory (based on how quickly you really are cooling)
I still dont have a good understanding of the relationship of DMS and a hopstand (or hot whirlpooling ) when covering the volume.
If You can still create DMS after a 90 min boil by hopstanding (hot whirlpooling) before chilling, I will throw my flameout hops back 10 min and chill on flameout. I believe 6 mo ago when I brewed a pale ale I did flameout hops, I cannot recall if I did a hopstand or cooled immediately, all I know is I did not notice DMS in the final beer
SilverZero
Well-Known Member
MY understanding is that the DMS precursors are all driven off by a good rolling boil of 90 minutes, probably even by 60 minutes, so covering and such will be fine since there are no more DMS precursors left. I don't bother covering all the same because I have never had a problem with infection, but it's certainly safer to cover. I think it's been said in this and other threads that DMS won't be produced very significantly after a longer uncovered boil. Correct me if I'm incorrect.
Further reading (which may confirm or deny what I have said): https://www.homebrewtalk.com/wiki/index.php/DMS#Causes_of_DMS
