How to get the best hop aroma from flameout additions?

[dpittard]

I made a hop tea with my bittering hops on one batch a few months ago. I read that the tea pulls the aroma and flavor out but leaves the bittering portion behind. After the tea steeps for a while, using a french press, press the hops down, keep the tea for a flameout or pre-pitching addition and put the hops in the boil as normal (60 min usually). The beer turned out well, but I would need to perform a control experiment before I could provide any form of empirical conclusions.

 

[Spartan1979]

FWIW here's what I have been doing. At flameout, turn on the chiller and within about 3-4 minutes I'm down to 180. I stop chilling, add in my 'flameout' hops and let steep for 10 minutes, and then resume chilling, which takes another 15-18 minutes.
I have not done any sort of side-by-side comparison with other methods, but I can say that my beers (all IPAs) have lots of hop flavor and aroma, and people love them.

What's the reasoning behind cooling to 180° before adding the hops?

 

[Mpavlik22]

What's the reasoning behind cooling to 180° before adding the hops?

I'm not 100% sure and he may have another reason, but i believe adding the hops below 180F will stop isomerization and not extract additional bitterness.

When adding hops at flame out, and letting steep for 30 mins before cooling can almost be considered close to a regular 30 min hop addition adding flavor but also adding significant bitterness.

I assume he chills to stop from adding bitterness, but to continue to add aroma and flavoring from the hops.

 

[eltorrente]

Cooling to 180 (which is what I do, too) ensures that there is minimal steam coming off of the wort, which will pull the hop aroma away with it.

I typically add a few ounces at 180, mix them up and let steep for about 5-10minutes (as long as it takes to hook up my chiller and get things ready), then wirlpool and chill. I always get huge hop flavor and aroma.

 

[Mpavlik22]

Do u cover ur pot after flame out? I do as soon as I kill the flame. This keeps all that aroma in very well.

 

[Dog House Brew]

I tend to do a bittering addition and then do a finishing addition at flameout. I add this addition and begin my whirlpool. I run my CFC back to the kettle and chill slowly. Once I hit around 160 I then move my CFC return from the kettle and then move to the fermenter. Total contact time is nearly 30 minutes. I have found I gain some bittering from these hops, but it gives it more of a smoothness vs. a boil addition at 10. As far as aroma, I don't think I get much of the aroma here. Dry hopping and warming my beer to the low 70's during the dry hop gives me the aroma IMO. I made a hopback and couldn't tell a lot of difference, even though it was used only once. I'm doing an IIPA coming up and I'm stuffing the hopback with my homegrown hops. I calculate my whirlpool addition IBU as a 5 min boil addition. Not sure if this is correct, but dat is how I do it. Works for me.

 

[Bsquared]

What's the reasoning behind cooling to 180° before adding the hops?

I'm probably going to get killed here, but... I've been under the impression that it is good practice to get your wort under 180 ASAP after the boil to limit the production of the precursors of DMS (dimethyl sulfide), and other volatiles that are expelled during the boil but are still produced but trapped at temps above 180ºF

Personally, I have done flame out additions with 20min whirlpool before chilling in the past, but I am currently using my DIY hop back. I find that gravity feeding through the hop back then going directly through my CFC has given me the best aroma. It takes about 15-20min to drain the kettle through the hop back, so I'd consider the contact time to be similar.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I'm probably going to get killed here, but... I've been under the impression that it is good practice to get your wort under 180 ASAP after the boil to limit the production of the precursors of DMS (dimethyl sulfide), and other volatiles that are expelled during the boil but are still produced but trapped at temps above 180ºF

Personally, I have done flame out additions with 20min whirlpool before chilling in the past, but I am currently using my DIY hop back. I find that gravity feeding through the hop back then going directly through my CFC has given me the best aroma. It takes about 15-20min to drain the kettle through the hop back, so I'd consider the contact time to be similar.

I could be wrong, but I think the DMS "danger zone" is between 140 and 180. 140 is the temp you want to get below ASAP, IIRC.

 

[thughes]

I have started doing my 60 minute addition as a FWH and then putting all of the remaining additions into the cube (no-chill). So far this has been used on an ESB, APA, and a dry stout.....very different sort of bittering (much milder than usual) and a HUGE hop aroma/taste. Obviously this is better for certain styles but i am extremely pleased with the results at this point.

 

[dmcoates]

IMO , you get zero aroma from flameout hop additions after fermentation is complete. The CO2 will drive out most if not all the aroma. You need to dry hop to get good aroma. That being said, you get a lot of the hop flavor from letting flameout steep for a half hour or so.

 

[Bsquared]

I could be wrong, but I think the DMS "danger zone" is between 140 and 180. 140 is the temp you want to get below ASAP, IIRC.

I think you are correct, still being produced but not getting out of wort between 140-180. I've been using a CFC for a long time because of this, but forgot the exact #'s.

I like the hop tea Idea too. that would be an easy one to do a side by side experiment with.

 

[homebrew816]

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[MacGruber]

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[carp]

I'm not 100% sure and he may have another reason, but i believe adding the hops below 180F will stop isomerization and not extract additional bitterness.

When adding hops at flame out, and letting steep for 30 mins before cooling can almost be considered close to a regular 30 min hop addition adding flavor but also adding significant bitterness.

I assume he chills to stop from adding bitterness, but to continue to add aroma and flavoring from the hops.

Mpalvik - that's right, but you've thought it out and articulated it better than I could have. Thanks

 

[markg388]

Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Alright, so now that they're carbed up and conditioned the side by side test was done today. I also had my friend taste them without knowing which one was which.

The recipe, it's pretty out of season.
10# pilsner
8# gambrinus "esb" malt
1# carafoam
.5# honey malt
mash @ 154
90 minute boil

.8oz magnum @12.5%

When it was chilling time i split the beer into 2 pots and added .7oz saphir to each, immediately chilling the first 5 gallons and letting the other 5 sit there while the first batch chilled. Each bucket received a re-hydrated pack of S-05. The OG was 1.042 and I didn't measure the FG.

The verdict? Steeping the hops for 20 or so minutes before chilling will get more aroma and flavor out of them. All the hops were pellets.

The one that was chilled instantly doesn't really have any hop qualities at all, maybe a tiny "green" or "plant" flavor if you search for it. Pretty much a waste of hops, it mostly has a mild candy-like sweetness with a bit of malt flavor, but overall it's quite a low-flavor chuggable beer. I'd probably like it more if it was hot outside.

The one that was steeped has a modest, bright hop essence that mixes nicely with that sweetness. You can actually smell a bit of hops in it and taste them too. It's still a real mild, chuggable low-flavor beer, but there's more going on than in the other one. I think the steeped beer has a teensy bit more bitterness, but I couldn't tell until i re-tasted them to see what the difference was.

So there we go! I'm excited to find out how much more intense my hoppy brews are going to start getting pretty soon here.

Thanks for doing the experiment! Totally going to follow your lead on my next batch.

 

[fifthcircle]

markg388,
Great info. Thanks for taking the time and doing this. I guess I am glad I don't have a chiller yet My last batch (IPA), I added hops at 8min and flame out, then chilled slowly in the sink. Should be the same results as a longer steep.

 

[SkiNuke]

Pardon my potential ignorance, but wouldn't you get the same type of flavor from doing a 20 minute addition during the boil and then chilling rapidly? I mean really the only difference between letting it steep for 20 minutes and letting it boil for 20 minutes is that more water is escaping as steam during the boil, and a small temp difference. It looks to me like the hop oils boil off at a much lower temperature than water anyways, so the small temp difference should not matter too much.

 

[shortyjacobs]

Pardon my potential ignorance, but wouldn't you get the same type of flavor from doing a 20 minute addition during the boil and then chilling rapidly? I mean really the only difference between letting it steep for 20 minutes and letting it boil for 20 minutes is that more water is escaping as steam during the boil, and a small temp difference. It looks to me like the hop oils boil off at a much lower temperature than water anyways, so the small temp difference should not matter too much.

Steam vapor bubbling up through the volatile oils drastically increase surface area and aid in stripping aromatic compounds out of the wort, this chemical engineer guesses.

 

[Lennie]

I don't think the volatile components are necessarily all that volatile. I get good aroma from a 5min addition. Yes the steam is coming off more vigorously and you are dealing with a 20F difference in temp, but it isn't as drastic as all that. Even a straight bittering addition at 60min still gives a little flavor and aroma.

I've always felt that a FO addition was a little wasteful, so the hop stand makes sense to me. I don't know that it is going to be significantly different than something you'd get from a 15 and 5min combo though. Thats my usual protocol. I rarely dry hop and still get some very nice aroma.

As for whether a hop stand causes issues with DMS, sounds like it doesn't. If you've boiled adequately (60min for 2-row, 90min for pils) you shoud't have many precursors left.

FWH, FO w/ hop stand, 60-15-5, dry hop, its all good.

 

[markg388]

I always assumed that steeping for 20 and boiling for 20 minute would taste the same too and always chilled immediately as a result of this thinking. Then I had the opportunity to spend a brewday with the brewer at a local brewery I like and saw that they steeped their flameout additions for a while, which prompted me to try it out for myself. I'd say the 2 techniques produce very different results.

I couldn't tell you anything about the science... I'm more of a tastebuds-oriented brewer.

 

[Lennie]

I always assumed that steeping for 20 and boiling for 20 minute would taste the same too and always chilled immediately as a result of this thinking. Then I had the opportunity to spend a brewday with the brewer at a local brewery I like and saw that they steeped their flameout additions for a while, which prompted me to try it out for myself. I'd say the 2 techniques produce very different results.

I couldn't tell you anything about the science... I'm more of a tastebuds-oriented brewer.

I think it more likely that a hop stand is going to produce results more like a 5min addition, since the temp isn't as high and the rolling boil isn't moving things around.

 

[shortyjacobs]

I think it more likely that a hop stand is going to produce results more like a 5min addition, since the temp isn't as high and the rolling boil isn't moving things around.

Do you mean hop steep? Or am I missing something....

 

[Lennie]

I've heard it called a hop stand, when you let the wort "stand" for some time after turning off/down the heat so its not boiling. Its steeping though. i've done it before, just because I thought it would bring out the flavor/aroma. FO hops always seemed to me to be a little bit underutilized in theory. I don't usualy spare the hops though so its hard to really tell and I'm not one to do a side by side experiment.

 

[birvine]

Very interesting. So for my next batch I'll do an oz FWH, bittering hops and then hold off and at FO I'll toss in another oz or two for a half hour.

Yes, I love hops.

B

 

[RickFinsta]

From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.

 

[Grumpybumpy]

From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.

Best theory I've read so far! Thanks for your input!

 

[Calder]

From a chemical processing perspective, there is an old listed property of some materials; "volatile with steam," in reference books. Direct steam injection is a very old method for getting heavier organics that are not water-soluble or necessarily all that volatile to leave the pot. Whisky is made in this manner for the very reason that the flavors that make it whisky are volatile with steam; no other distillation method will make whisky, as the organic molecules giving the flavor will not be carried over. So, it is this biochemist's opinion, that the more steam you are removing from a kettle, the more flavoring chemicals (good or bad) you are removing. Soaking the hops under boiling temps should increase solubility without losing too much in the way of organics that are only volatile with steam, leading to more hop flavor than either not soaking hot or boiling for any period. The higher temperatures also would, of course, lend themselves to chemical changes that could alter flavor profile, so I wouldn't say performing the "hop steep" would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time! Too many factors to know.

What? A little confusing.

If I read it right, you are saying that high temperatures are best for extracting hop oils (flavor and aroma), and not boiling/steaming reduces the loss of those oils, retaining more of the oils in the finished product.

The next question that comes up is ... Are you also adding bittering compounds to the wort and increasing the IBUs during this time? It is my understanding that bittering compounds need to be isomerized (evaporated and condensed) to become soluble in the wort, so you will not get any additional bittering when the pot is not actually boiling.

So; my 15 to 30 minute hop steep is not just a waste of time.

 

[NewDecadeBrewery]

What? A little confusing.

If I read it right, you are saying that high temperatures are best for extracting hop oils (flavor and aroma), and not boiling/steaming reduces the loss of those oils, retaining more of the oils in the finished product.

The next question that comes up is ... Are you also adding bittering compounds to the wort and increasing the IBUs during this time? It is my understanding that bittering compounds need to be isomerized (evaporated and condensed) to become soluble in the wort, so you will not get any additional bittering when the pot is not actually boiling.

So; my 15 to 30 minute hop steep is not just a waste of time.

I don't think RickFinsta is claiming that your 15 to 30 min steep is a waste of time but the opposite, that it increases hop flavor. I didn't see where he discussed isomerization of bittering compounds at all, and rightfully so because because it probably doesn't take place in a significant way if at all in a hot steep.

Additionally it seems that RickFinsta hits on an interesting point in that steeping at high temperatures lend themselves to chemical changes that "could alter flavor profile". He doesn't claim to either empirically or subjectively know what those chemical changes will be every time and/or for any given hop variety ("too many factors to know") so therefore the statement, "so I wouldn't say performing the 'hop steep' would necessarily give you a better tasting beer every time!" makes sense.

I think we can almost assume though that since we boil hops in the normal course of making beer (i.e add hops to hot liquids for the intent of releasing bittering and flavoring compounds) that steeping hops in hot liquid, especially if the variety is known to us to be pleasant to our senses will yield a pleasant result and/or will increase the aromatics that we are seeking to add to the flavor of the beer we are making. The caveat: it should be appropriate to style if trying to make to style. If not attempting to brew 'to style' then do whatever you want.

The fact that high temperatures (therefore temperature variations in general) alter flavors by creating chemical changes means to me that a brewer will get different flavor profiles by boiling for long periods, by hot steeping, and by dry hopping and any other temperature step in between. Lets just not assume that these methods will always give us what we desire flavor wise in the beer that we are attempting to create.

I intend to start hot steeping my flame out additions for certain styles of beer I make as I have not been doing this. I am quite excited about it actually and can't wait to taste the results. Definitely will hot steep for my next APA. May try it in a restrained way for ESB's and American Ambers. Probably not incredibly appropriate in the other styles I normally brew but I am open to trying new things too. My .02 FWIW.

 

[Thehopguy]

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