How to get fruit out of Citra hops

[beervoid]

Hey everyone,

I've been working with Citra for quiet some time and only one time did I get a really nice sweet tropical / flowery fruityness out of it. I'm not sure why.
All subsequent batches have had more grapefruit citrus then anything else.

Wondering if anyone has any experience using Citra on a particular way to squeeze some tropical / fruity notes out of it rather then grapefruity citrus.

For example i've heard one brewer mention on a podcast that they tend to avoid Citra in the whirlpool and only use it in 20-10 min boil on the hotside to get more fruity / flowery aroma's from it.

Cheers!

 

[cmybeer]

Hmm, not sure on that one but you can obviously always supplement with another fruitier hop to pair with citra.

 

[krenshaw]

you could check the age and condition that it was stored which may factor into the usage of it.. I also tend to use it for just very late additions and I love it for dry hopping.. I have gotten some grapefruitish notes, though a lot of that could be to just individual tastes/smells

 

[lump42]

If you're trying to get a specific fruit flavor, why not just add that fruit in secondary?

 

[samandbekah]

I used it a ton but in a layering method... Whirlpool at 170 degrees for 20 to 30 minutes, dry hop towards the end of fermentation (approximately a couple gravity points left) and then again in the keg with a dry hop (stays in the keg). Really pulls out the fruitiness of it. Also, are you adjusting your water profile at all? Gypsum is a good start to add that helps pull out hop oils for aroma and flavor.

 

[wepeeler]

I usually use citra as flameout and dry hop only, but I have since started to boil it as well. I was always afraid of the dreaded "cat pee" that can come from boiling it too long, but it's been good for me so far. I've been mixing it with Mosaic and Galaxy to bring out some more fruity flavors. I find citra is mainly citrus ie grapefruit, orange juice, lemon zest, but paired with Galaxy is where the tropical flavors and notes come out. Mosaic tends to add more dankness at first, but as it ages about 3-4 weeks in the keg, you'll get more over ripe fruit.

 

[beervoid]

I usually use citra as flameout and dry hop only, but I have since started to boil it as well. I was always afraid of the dreaded "cat pee" that can come from boiling it too long, but it's been good for me so far. I've been mixing it with Mosaic and Galaxy to bring out some more fruity flavors. I find citra is mainly citrus ie grapefruit, orange juice, lemon zest, but paired with Galaxy is where the tropical flavors and notes come out. Mosaic tends to add more dankness at first, but as it ages about 3-4 weeks in the keg, you'll get more over ripe fruit.

My latest beer was with citra mosaic and galaxy. All at same rates. 2 oz of each in the whirlpool and total of 12oz, 4 of each in dry hop.
I struggle getting any tropical notes here even with mosaic and galaxy in the mix.
My hops are always stored properly and ive got the rest of my processes nailed down.
Mosaic on itself is beautifull. Anytime citra or galaxy are in the mix I get an overwhelming grapefruit citrus flavour no tropical notes whatsoever except for that one single hop citra batch.

 

[samandbekah]

My latest beer was with citra mosaic and galaxy. All at same rates. 2 oz of each in the whirlpool and total of 12oz of each in dry hop.
I struggle getting any tropical notes here even with mosaic and galaxy in the mix.
My hops are always stored properly and ive got the rest of my processes nailed down.
Mosaic on itself is beautifull. Anytime citra or galaxy are in the mix I get an overwhelming grapefruit citrus flavour no tropical notes whatsoever except for that one single hop citra batch.

Are you treating your water at all to be more tailored towards hoppy beers? If so, what was your water water profile?

 

[shortyz]

anyone used cryo hops yet?

 

[samandbekah]

anyone used cryo hops yet?

Yes they are delicious as well and pretty much work as advertised. Half the amounts of typical pellet hops is a good conservative estimate for usage. The biggest advantage I'd say is less hop gunk. Buyers choice as far as how much hop pellet vs cryo hop but cryo hop has less vegetative matter left over.

 

[beervoid]

Are you treating your water at all to be more tailored towards hoppy beers? If so, what was your water water profile?

I'm mostly brewing New England IPA's, building my water from RO and I've done both high chloride and high sulfate ratio's. Didn't effect my hop flavour that much if anything I would say higher sulfate accentuated the bitterness and grapefruityness from Citra.

 

[beervoid]

anyone used cryo hops yet?

Always use as much cryo as possible in my dry hop additions to save the gunk.

Flavour wise don't get a difference much.

 

[FatDragon]

Citra is one of those hops that seems to vary from year to year. Maybe your first batch with Citra was a different crop year?

 

[thehaze]

Citra is definitely citrussy, but it does exhibit lychee and mango ( general tropical fruit - depends on your taste buds ). Besides the fruit character, is does impart a bit of dankness, but one of the more pleasent ones. Whirlpool at lower temp., moderate to heavy dry hopping rates, water profile ( I like a bit more sulfate than chloride, but nowhere near West Coast levels ) and pairing with other fruity varieties. Galaxy, Amarillo are ones I've tried along Citra and work very good. For my taste, Amarillo and Citra are very good together. Lots of mango, other tropical notes, soft tangerine/grapefruit, some dankness in the background. Very tasty.

 

[beervoid]

Citra is one of those hops that seems to vary from year to year. Maybe your first batch with Citra was a different crop year?

Ive done a few batches with the same lot and only once had a very nice fruity profile from it.

I'm interested to hear how people prefer to use citra.
Did anyone notice it get more grapefruity from whirlpooling?
Or more fruity from dry hopping?

 

[thehaze]

It adds fruitier notes and " dankness " in dry hopping and more of a citrussy during whirlpool, but I confess, that I haven't brewed a beer with only Citra and whirlpool, NO dry hopping, but tasting from the fermenter before kegging/bottling.

 

[beervoid]

I suspect it might have something to do with the high myrcene content. If you get too much myrcene by whirlpooling and dry hopping with citra you get the piney bitter grapefruit citrus more then flowery tropical notes?

 

[wepeeler]

My latest beer was with citra mosaic and galaxy. All at same rates. 2 oz of each in the whirlpool and total of 12oz, 4 of each in dry hop.
I struggle getting any tropical notes here even with mosaic and galaxy in the mix.
My hops are always stored properly and ive got the rest of my processes nailed down.
Mosaic on itself is beautifull. Anytime citra or galaxy are in the mix I get an overwhelming grapefruit citrus flavour no tropical notes whatsoever except for that one single hop citra batch.

I usually get an overwhelming tropical flavor and profile from Galaxy. So much so that I've learned to dial it back in my recipes. Citra will definitely add a grapefruit flavor. Mosaic for me has been more overripe fruit and dankness. Paired with Citra, it seems to really shine.

 

[Northern_Brewer]

I've been working with Citra for quiet some time and only one time did I get a really nice sweet tropical / flowery fruityness out of it. I'm not sure why.
All subsequent batches have had more grapefruit citrus then anything else.

Citra does seem to be particularly sensitive to harvest time, and the rapid expansion of acreage has meant more people farming it who don't always give it the care it deserves. Also the 2017 vintage seems to have been particularly problematic.

Two other factors - the apparent flavours vary depending on what other hops it is blended with, there's a lot of 2+2 = elephant kind of stuff going on as flavour compounds interact with each other.

Also it has compounds that are quite sensitive to biotransformation by yeast, so it can taste very different when used with different yeast strains.

 

[beervoid]

Citra does seem to be particularly sensitive to harvest time, and the rapid expansion of acreage has meant more people farming it who don't always give it the care it deserves. Also the 2017 vintage seems to have been particularly problematic.

Two other factors - the apparent flavours vary depending on what other hops it is blended with, there's a lot of 2+2 = elephant kind of stuff going on as flavour compounds interact with each other.

Also it has compounds that are quite sensitive to biotransformation by yeast, so it can taste very different when used with different yeast strains.

We need a hop quality alarm where people report the quality of every harvest available for homebrewers

You might be right I need to go through my notes but it might be possible that the one good batch was made with 2016 hops. The ones im struggling with now are 2017 harvest.

Seems trying to figure out hop flavours in this way becomes a black art.

You'd expect the blending would take care of any inconsistencies

 

[Northern_Brewer]

We need a hop quality alarm where people report the quality of every harvest available for homebrewers

You might be right I need to go through my notes but it might be possible that the one good batch was made with 2016 hops. The ones im struggling with now are 2017 harvest.

Seems trying to figure out hop flavours in this way becomes a black art.

You'd expect the blending would take care of any inconsistencies

Citra seems to be particularly prone to this kind of stuff - or at least is big enough for people to notice. But you can have significant variations on a regional scale - in 2016 the far end of Kent had really terrible Goldings, but 30 miles west the main area for EKG was not great, but not nearly as bad, and the Hereford ones 150 miles further west were better again.

Hops are an agricultural product - they vary by farm and by vintage.

 

[samandbekah]

We need a hop quality alarm where people report the quality of every harvest available for homebrewers

You might be right I need to go through my notes but it might be possible that the one good batch was made with 2016 hops. The ones im struggling with now are 2017 harvest.

Seems trying to figure out hop flavours in this way becomes a black art.

You'd expect the blending would take care of any inconsistencies

Just curious, where did you buy the hops from?

 

[isomerization]

I have had similar “issues” with Citra before. All purchases from Yakima Valley have been great, but the one time I bought 5 lbs from Hops Direct, tropical flavors were noticeably subdued and replace by a grapefruit citrus quality. Not bad, but I will be happy to be done with that batch

 

[beervoid]

Just curious, where did you buy the hops from?

I think they are sourced from YCH, is that the same as Yakima Valley?

 

[beervoid]

I have had similar “issues” with Citra before. All purchases from Yakima Valley have been great, but the one time I bought 5 lbs from Hops Direct, tropical flavors were noticeably subdued and replace by a grapefruit citrus quality. Not bad, but I will be happy to be done with that batch

I think nowadays hop suppliers are able to give you detailed oil content of batches?
Did you check what was the difference in the batch you got now thats is more citrusy?
Sounds like the more citrusy batches are probably lower on 4mmp?

Im gonna see if I can get a hop oil profile from my supplier and see if thats the culprit.

 

[samandbekah]

I think they are sourced from YCH, is that the same as Yakima Valley?

Well Yakima Valley is the general region that a lot of hops are grown but yes the YCH is Yakima Valley Hops company... But I find that kind of surprising because I've had nothing but top notch quality every time I've purchased from there

 

[couchsending]

Citra used to be grown on one farm in Washington. It’s now grown in three states and who knows how many farms. It will probably taste rather different from each one of those farms and even within those farms If the acreage is big.

It also depends on when the crop was harvested and where/how it was processed.

There’s a reason the big breweries get to do selection. As homebrewers we get the stuff the commercial breweries don’t want. It’s a complete crap shoot. Comparing one crop year to a next is almost worthless unless you’re literally comparing the same plot from the same farm.

Boiling Citra will actually decrease the “cat piss” and increase the “passion fruit” aspect of the Hop. The thiol that causes the cat piss actually decreases when boiled.

I would recommend layering some Citra at 20 and 5 left in the boil. I would also recommend dry hopping it at around 60*. You’ll get less dank/sweaty notes and more defined fruit character. I get more of the lychee/mango/lime type character from it with that process when the hop is good.

 

[thehaze]

I never got cat piss from either Citra or Simcoe, but if what couchsending is correct, then I never got it because of the things he mentioned above. I always hop in the last 15-20 minutes ( between 4 and 7 additions usually - recipe dependent ), along with a whirlpool and dry hop.

 

[beervoid]

Citra used to be grown on one farm in Washington. It’s now grown in three states and who knows how many farms. It will probably taste rather different from each one of those farms and even within those farms If the acreage is big.

It also depends on when the crop was harvested and where/how it was processed.

There’s a reason the big breweries get to do selection. As homebrewers we get the stuff the commercial breweries don’t want. It’s a complete crap shoot. Comparing one crop year to a next is almost worthless unless you’re literally comparing the same plot from the same farm.

Boiling Citra will actually decrease the “cat piss” and increase the “passion fruit” aspect of the Hop. The thiol that causes the cat piss actually decreases when boiled.

I would recommend layering some Citra at 20 and 5 left in the boil. I would also recommend dry hopping it at around 60*. You’ll get less dank/sweaty notes and more defined fruit character. I get more of the lychee/mango/lime type character from it with that process when the hop is good.

Never got the cat pee and actually like the dankness...
What you are describing is what I heard on that podcast as well. i believe it was with pizza point.
To get fruityness out of citra dont whirlpool it and use it in the boil.
Just did a batch to try this.