How to get 240VAC in your kitchen without rewiring...

[madscientist451]

Hey "buddy", I asked you what size and type wire you have coming from the pole to your meter and from the meter to the panel and you didn't answer....Here are some more facts:
Around here, the electrical code is written in to law. Any activity that circumvents the permit process or intentionally violates the electrical code is also a violation of the law.
In your state, maybe its different, I don't know.
You also stated that the meter is designed for 100 amp and since you may be pulling a higher load now it isn't reading the actual consumption properly, so that sounds like a theft of electricity. The power company people around here are inflexible A-holes. I hope, for your sake, that they are a little more easy going in your area.

 

[passedpawn]

Let's take it easy guys. There should be a warning that pops up on the screen when you post a sentence that ends with an exclamation. "Are you sure you want to start yelling? Yes/Cancel".

I think it's enough to point out construction that might violate electrical code, and also voice your concerns about safety. Please don't get emotional though. That's not helpful.

We do some pretty sketchy stuff here. We, as in Joe 6pack, trying to wire up his own 50A panel based on an old PJ drawing. I remember the guy that made an electric boil kettle, with an element, in a Home Depot bucket. Haha.

 

[brewman !]

LOL. Lots of experts here.

 

[passedpawn]

LOL. Lots of experts here.

There are. I hope you're appreciative of that.

I went looking for the plastic bucket brew kettle video and instead found that it's a pretty common practice. Hmmm. Anyway, just closing the loop on a previous comment, don't want to change the topic here. Carry on

 

[beermanpete]

Excuse me ? What is dangerous about any of my suggestions ?

Reliance on the 240V breaker in your suggestion is dangerous.

You suggestion to use two 120V outlets that are fed from the alternate polarities of the 240V and therefore on independent circuit breakers to power a 240V circuit is inherently unsafe. The perceived protection from a ganged circuit breaker downstream from the 120V circuit breakers does not offer reliable protection because there is no way to ensure that the 240V breaker will open first without under-sizing it to the point of rendering the whole idea useless.

The suggestion others have proposed of using two 120V burners in parallel makes equal use of the available utility service without inherent dangers of your proposal.

 

[brewman !]

Reliance on the 240V breaker in your suggestion is dangerous.

You suggestion to use two 120V outlets that are fed from the alternate polarities of the 240V and therefore on independent circuit breakers to power a 240V circuit is inherently unsafe. The perceived protection from a ganged circuit breaker downstream from the 120V circuit breakers does not offer reliable protection because there is no way to ensure that the 240V breaker will open first without under-sizing it to the point of rendering the whole idea useless.

Huh ?

The suggestion others have proposed of using two 120V burners in parallel makes equal use of the available utility service without inherent dangers of your proposal.

As I explained previously, some of us aren't using "burners".

 

[beermanpete]

Huh ?

You are using two independent circuits to power a common load. There is no assurance that both breaker will open.

As I explained previously, some of us aren't using "burners".

For this discussion the exact nature of the load is irrelevant.

 

[ajdelange]

I remember the guy that made an electric boil kettle, with an element, in a Home Depot bucket. Haha.

One of the first boil kettles I had was a British product with a heater in a plastic bucket. It had a nice stencil of hop vines on it. You cut off the Pommie plug and stuck on a clothes dryer plug and merrily boiled away. The 'controller' was a thermostat with a knob on the outside that sensed the temperature of the boiling worth through the plastic.

 

[brewman !]

You are using two independent circuits to power a common load. There is no assurance that both breaker will open.

So what if they don't ?

For this discussion the exact nature of the load is irrelevant.

No it isn't. Powerful induction heaters need 240VAC. You can't fit 2 of them under a pot.

 

[beermanpete]

So what if they don't ?

Then there is still power present in the load. This poses a serious shock hazard to the operator if any attempt is made to service the device without opening the other leg of the circuit. Even people with good training and skills can make mistakes. If you are comfortable doing it in your system that is your business. This is way to risky to be advocating that others use this method of sourcing power, especially without knowing their understanding of electrical circuitry, safety management, and skill level assembling this type of equipment.

No it isn't. Powerful induction heaters need 240VAC. You can't fit 2 of them under a pot.

It does not matter. There is no reason to be cavalier about safety, especially the safety of others.

 

[brewman !]

Then there is still power present in the load. This poses a serious shock hazard to the operator if any attempt is made to service the device without opening the other leg of the circuit.

UNPLUG IT ! There is a plug on the other side of the GFCI. Is it too much to ask that the brewery equipment gets unplugged before the operator services it ? Or maybe we could ask the operator to trip the GCFI breaker ? It is right there !

And if it really bother you that much that the breakers of both 120VAC receptacles don't trip in an overload situation, then move the wires in the house panel such that the breakers are side by side and use one of these:

It is a breaker tie bar. It is used to tie breakers together, so that when one trips, so does the other.

And anyone that works on AC power system needs one of these:

When you open up a piece of high voltage equipment you NEVER rely on the breaker to protect you from a shock. What if someone flipped off the wrong breaker ? What if the circuit is wired incorrectly and neutral is still hot ? What if the breaker is shorted ?

You ALWAYS test the circuit with a non contact voltage tester. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS. You don't even open the box unless you have the tester handy.

While we are on the topic of servicing live equipment, the door on 99% of the electric brewery panels can be opened without interrupting the power within the panel. That is a violation of electrical code/practice. That is way more dangerous than having only 1 breaker of this setup trip on an overload. Are you going to tell all the ebrewery panel owners to fix their designs ? What is stopping them from being electrocuted while servicing their equipment ?

 

[brewman !]

One could also wire relays into the supply panel such that if one plug loses voltage (due to a breaker tripping or a plug becoming unplugged) it disconnects the supply from the other plug.

I'll draw up a diagram if anyone wants it.

One other thing - the brewery equipment that the operator would be servicing is fed by the GFCI in the panel. Should he create a path between a hot conductor and ground or neutral he will trip the GFCI. One should never rely on a GCFI to prevent injury, but it is nice to know that its here and probably would.

 

[passedpawn]

2) Find 2 120VAC plugs that are wired to opposite sides of the 240VAC supply. Build an adapter cord to go from 2 120VAC plugs to the 240VAC receptacle that the unit requires. The breakers on both 120VAC circuits will need to be replaced with GFCI breakers

I apologize in advance if this was covered (didn't read whole thread) but if you use two 120V ckts in your kitchen to create 240, and replace the 120V breakers in the breaker box with GFCI's, won't they (well, one of them) trip instantly? Half the current (one half cycle) will be going to another ckt.

 

[itsnotrequired]

I apologize in advance if this was covered (didn't read whole thread) but if you use two 120V ckts in your kitchen to create 240, and replace the 120V breakers in the breaker box with GFCI's, won't they (well, one of them) trip instantly? Half the current (one half cycle) will be going to another ckt.

correct. the proposed arrangement will not work if either of the two receptacles have upstream gfci circuit breakers or if the receptacles themselves are gfci protected...which is basically any receptacle in a modern kitchen if the kitchen was built to code.

 

[beermanpete]

One could also wire relays into the supply panel such that if one plug loses voltage (due to a breaker tripping or a plug becoming unplugged) it disconnects the supply from the other plug.

I'll draw up a diagram if anyone wants it.

One other thing - the brewery equipment that the operator would be servicing is fed by the GFCI in the panel. Should he create a path between a hot conductor and ground or neutral he will trip the GFCI. One should never rely on a GCFI to prevent injury, but it is nice to know that its here and probably would.

One could do a lot of things. Considering that it seems you original purpose is to derive a cheap and dirty source of 240V how would adding the complexity of all this be cheaper or easier than installing a proper 240V run from the load center to the brewery?

Regading your previous post: The breaker bridge seems like a suitable solution; relying on "common sense" is not.

 

[ajdelange]

Just looking back over this thread I came on this:

couldnt a phase generator be used here too to create 240v or does that only work when more than one phase is already present? I realize its not practical but hey a that's a relative term to a lot of folks here..

What is meant by a "phase generator"? Is it a winding on a step up transformer? Is it a generator (dynamo) connected to a motor? Is it an electronic inverter connected to a rectifier? Is it a winding on a 3ø motor that is being single phased? Is it a relativity condenser?

All these will convert 120 to 240 (well, maybe not the last one). The only one that is practical is the first and that only if the 120V feeding it can supply sufficient current.

 

[augiedoggy]

Just looking back over this thread I came on this:



What is meant by a "phase generator"? Is it a winding on a step up transformer? Is it a generator (dynamo) connected to a motor? Is it an electronic inverter connected to a rectifier? Is it a winding on a 3ø motor that is being single phased? Is it a relativity condenser?

All these will convert 120 to 240 (well, maybe not the last one). The only one that is practical is the first and that only if the 120V feeding it can supply sufficient current.

any of the above... I only know they exist because we actually had customers use them to power some of our equipment in certain countries and situations..
You know more about them than me. I have a couple customers myself that come to mind with much smaller 208 to 240v 20a step up tranformers for a piece of equipment I service that wont run on 208v. but both phases are already present there.

 

[passedpawn]

Is it a winding on a step up transformer?

That would be quite a transformer to supply 30 or 50A 10kVA

I've got a 1:6 100VA transformer here for creating a 600VAC supply for something I'm working on. It's pretty hefty.

 

[ajdelange]

And also this:

... and another member here posted he had 800 amps worth of breakers tied to a 200 amp service

That's actually pretty typical. Remember that a 200 amp main panel breaker implies feeder wire sized for 200 amps on each phase so that the panel can accommodate 400 amps worth of 120 V breakers.

since theres no restriction to the amount of devices on that service as long as the mains breakers meet the same rating as the wiring feeding it power which is the questionable thing here...

There's no restriction on the number of breakers installed in a panel as long as the feeder/service is sized to support the loads. Sizing in figured out by taking 3 KVA per square foot, 2400 [Edit] per appliance circuit... plus the loads for air conditioners, clothes driers, ranges, motors and other things. As obviously not all the loads are on at the same time there are derating factors for some of the loads. The service or feeder wire for the panel is based on the load as adjusted by the derating facors if applicable. It usually turns out that the total breaker capacity is twice the required panel disconnect capacity e.g. 200 amp main breaker, capacity 2 x 200 = 400; installed breakers 2 x 400 = 800.

I've a stinking suspicion that many electricians ask the customer what kind and how many circuits he wants, add them up and just divides by 4 to get the size of the main breaker and wire rather than do the detailed calculation but it is only a suspicion.

Now if you go in and install an electric brewery and you wife installs a kiln at the same time and the factor goes over x 4 can you "argue*" to the inspector you never brew on the same day she fires her pottery? No idea.

*I remember asking a site supervisor once about his plans for the weekend. His response was that his outfit was starting its first job in DC on Monday and that he was going to spend the weekend practicing folding $20 bills so they would fit inside matchbook covers.

 

[brewman !]

Considering that it seems you[r] original purpose is to derive a cheap and dirty source of 240V how would adding the complexity of all this be cheaper or easier than installing a proper 240V run from the load center to the brewery?

I don't need to do any of this. I pulled 2x 12/3 into my brewery last night and I'm pulling a single 12/3 into my kitchen today. I'll pull a 12/3 to the patio in spring. My house will be wired. I'll have power everywhere I want to brew. It's great being your own electrician.

 

[passedpawn]

Appliance ckts (kitchen) are 20A, i.e., 2400VA.

 

[augiedoggy]

And also this:



That's actually pretty typical. Remember that a 200 amp main panel breaker implies feeder wire sized for 200 amps on each phase so that the panel can accommodate 400 amps worth of 120 V breakers.

There's no restriction on the number of breakers installed in a panel as long as the feeder/service is sized to support the loads. Sizing in figured out but taking 3 KVA per square foot, 1500 per appliance circuit... plus the loads for air conditioners, clothes driers, ranges, motors and other loads. As obviously not all the loads are on at the same time there are derating factors. The service or feeder wire for the panel is based on this load. It usually turns out that the total breaker capacity is twice the required panel disconnect capacity e.g. 200 amp main breaker, capacity 2 x 200 = 400; installed breakers 2 x 400 = 800.

I've a stinking suspicion that many electricians ask the customer what kind and how many circuits he wants, add them up and just divide by 4 to get the size of the main breaker but it is only a suspicion.

Now if you go in and install an electric brewery and you wife installs a kiln at the same time and the factor goes over x 4 can you "argue*" to the inspector you never brew on the same day she fires her pottery? No idea.

*I remember asking a site supervisor once about his plans for the weekend. His response was that his outfit was starting its first job in DC on Monday and that he was going to spend the weekend practicing folding $20 bills so they would fit inside matchbook covers.

Rather than a kiln, a bit more realistic example would be you have a 100a service and your wife wants to cook dinner in the electric over which uses up to 50 a and do a load of laundry which can use close to 30a while you want to brew... or run the AC unit...
in my case I had to juggle my reef tank lighting and hot tub with comes on on its own for cleaning cycles and required a 60 amp circuit with my brewery and the rest of the house on a 100 amp circuit... average joe home owner may not pay attention to this kind of stuff and deal with popping breakers. and if you do have 800 amps of mostly smaller 20 a breakers on a 200a circuit one could argue your likely either running a hotel or have the funds to upgrade if needed without even thinking about it.

 

[ajdelange]

Appliance ckts (kitchen) are 20A, i.e., 2400VA.

I have to admit that I grabbed an "Illustrated Guide" to the 2002 code rather than the actual 2014 tome. Yes, I believe that under the current version 2.4 KVA is correct. Thus readers should not take any of the actual numbers in my last post as gospel but should instead focus on the major points:

4 x the main breaker rating is typical for the total of the breakers installed

There is a limitation on the number of breakers that can be installed for a given service capacity

 

[ajdelange]

,,and if you do have 800 amps of mostly smaller 20 a breakers on a 200a circuit one could argue your likely either running a hotel or have the funds to upgrade if needed without even thinking about it.

I wish one could argue that as I have two such panels in my house which isn't that large. Things just add up. Heat pumps for mutiple zones, E-heat for the associated air handlers (a biggie), sump pumps, well pump (another fairly big one), clothes dryer, dual electric ovens, supplementary heaters in the loos...

 

[augiedoggy]

I wish one could argue that as I have two such panels in my house which isn't that large. Things just add up. Heat pumps for mutiple zones, E-heat for the associated air handlers (a biggie), sump pumps, well pump (another fairly big one), clothes dryer, dual electric ovens, supplementary heaters in the loos...

I have 170 amps of breakers in my 1500sqft home with my hot tub and brewery...

The other side of the duplex has 140amps worth of breakers on its own 100 amp service... I dont have most of the amenities your speaking of such as air handlers and heat zones and such though since my home isnt that large. I also dont have a basement so no sump pump and my appliances are gas.

 

[ajdelange]

I have 170 amps of breakers in my 1500sqft home with my hot tub and brewery...

That says you are oversized as 100 Amp service should support roughly 400 amps of breakers. Your examples of doing laundry while dinner is cooking and the A/C is on says otherwise. Are you adding up right? Remember that a 30 amp circuit for a hot tub is 60 amps worth of breakers - 30 amps on each phase.

 

[augiedoggy]

That says you are oversized as 100 Amp service should support roughly 400 amps of breakers. Your examples of doing laundry while dinner is cooking and the A/C is on says otherwise. Are you adding up right? Remember that a 30 amp circuit for a hot tub is 60 amps worth of breakers - 30 amps on each phase.

Why is each phase breaker a 60 amp breaker tied together and not a 30 amp breaker if thats true? my hot tub requires 60 amps not 30. there are (2) motors (3-5hp ) and a large heater as well as air pumps running off of it) just as my brewery requires 2 30 amp breakers tied together... each phase of my main breaker is also 100 amps. I also have other 240v appliances like my fermenter control glycol chiller running intermittently.

So your saying its ok to have more than 100amps being drawn throught the main 100 amp breakers at once like would happen if I had my hot tub, brewery and a couple other houshold appliances running at once? Again my hot tub turns on randomly with all pumps and heaters on full blast to run cleaning cycles multiple times a day it seems. ..I realize that with regular outlets the draw is usually a lot smaller and sporadic than their combined total but large appliances can add up fast.

 

[ajdelange]

Why is each phase breaker a 60 amp breaker tied together and not a 30 amp breaker if thats true? my hot tub requires 60 amps not 30.

Because your hot tub needs 60 A per phase, not 30. As I had no idea how much power your hot tub requires I just threw out 30 as an example to show you how to do the calculation. If we rephrase that for your actual hot tub load it is 120 Amps (@ 120V).

just as my brewery requires 2 30 amp breakers tied together...

So your brewery load is 60 amps. Adding just those two together we get 180 amps which is more than the 170 you said you had so clearly you were not adding them up right.

each phase of my main breaker is also 100 amps.

Meaning that your panel's capacity is 200 amperes at 120V.

So your saying its ok to have more than 100amps being drawn throught the main 100 amp breakers at once like would happen if I had my hot tub, brewery and a couple other houshold appliances running at once?

No, I did not say that at all.

again my hot tub turns on randomly with all pumps and heaters on full blast to run cleaning cycles multiple times a day it seems. ..

If that happens and it draws the full capacity of its branch circuit then it will be drawing 60A or 60% of the service capacity. If your brewery's electrics come on at that time and draw 30 A from each phase then the total load is 90A and you only have 10% reserve. If you now plug a 1200 KVA load into a single phase outlet and turn it on you will have a 100 A load on that circuit and the breaker will be at limit. If your wife fires off the range at that point in time you will have an overload and the breaker will trip protecting the service wires.

Hot tub 60A 240 V = 120A
Brewery 30A 240 V = 60 A
Range 50A 240 V = 100 A
Dryer 40A 240V = 80 A
Lights 1500*3/120 = 37.6 A
3 Appliance ckts 60 A

Adding those up gives 457.6A which is more than 4 x 100 so you are, as we knew, undersized. If you weren't undersized you wouldn't have to be worrying about what is on when.

 

[augiedoggy]

Because your hot tub needs 60 A per phase, not 30. As I had no idea how much power your hot tub requires I just threw out 30 as an example to show you how to do the calculation. If we rephrase that for your actual hot tub load it is 120 Amps (@ 120V).



So your brewery load is 60 amps. Adding just those two together we get 180 amps which is more than the 170 you said you had so clearly you were not adding them up right.



Meaning that your panel's capacity is 200 amperes at 120V.

No, I did not say that at all.

If that happens and it draws the full capacity of its branch circuit then it will be drawing 60A or 60% of the service capacity. If your brewery's electrics come on at that time and draw 30 A from each phase then the total load is 90A and you only have 10% reserve. If you now plug a 1200 KVA load into a single phase outlet and turn it on you will have a 100 A load on that circuit and the breaker will be at limit. If your wife fires off the range at that point in time you will have an overload and the breaker will trip protecting the service wires.

Hot tub 60A 240 V = 120A
Brewery 30A 240 V = 60 A
Range 50A 240 V = 100 A
Dryer 40A 240V = 80 A
Lights 1500*3/120 = 37.6 A
3 Appliance ckts 60 A

Adding those up gives 457.6A which is more than 4 x 100 so you are, as we knew, undersized. If you weren't undersized you wouldn't have to be worrying about what is on when.

ok regardless we are on the same page and making the same point. .. Im pointing this out because its one reason went with a 30a circuit for my brewery and not a 50a there are cases where you cant have 800amps worth of breakers working reliably on a much smaller service.

in regards to my setup im very cautious as to whats being used in the house while im brewing or using my hot tub...For example I turn my chiller off while brewing and usually do it when im the only one home. I would venture to guess that most wouldnt pay so much attention.

 

[augiedoggy]

You know I just took a closer look and my mains breakers are only 50 amp each! The cover to tie them together makes it hard to see this..... its hard to believe but Ive never had any issues with breakers popping other than running a toaster over off the same circuit as a coffee maker once... whats really crazy is my electrical was all inspected and passed fine after I added my hot tub but before I added the 30a line for my brewery... I wonder how many amps my hot tub is really drawing... and I'm glad I went from metal halode lighting in my reef tank to leds shortly after putting in the brewing line.

Its weird because the mains coming in look to be 4 gauge... perhaps its because they are aluminum.