Appliance ckts (kitchen) are 20A, i.e., 2400VA.
How to get 240VAC in your kitchen without rewiring...
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augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Rather than a kiln, a bit more realistic example would be you have a 100a service and your wife wants to cook dinner in the electric over which uses up to 50 a and do a load of laundry which can use close to 30a while you want to brew... or run the AC unit...
in my case I had to juggle my reef tank lighting and hot tub with comes on on its own for cleaning cycles and required a 60 amp circuit with my brewery and the rest of the house on a 100 amp circuit... average joe home owner may not pay attention to this kind of stuff and deal with popping breakers. and if you do have 800 amps of mostly smaller 20 a breakers on a 200a circuit one could argue your likely either running a hotel or have the funds to upgrade if needed without even thinking about it.
I have to admit that I grabbed an "Illustrated Guide" to the 2002 code rather than the actual 2014 tome. Yes, I believe that under the current version 2.4 KVA is correct. Thus readers should not take any of the actual numbers in my last post as gospel but should instead focus on the major points:
4 x the main breaker rating is typical for the total of the breakers installed
There is a limitation on the number of breakers that can be installed for a given service capacity
I wish one could argue that as I have two such panels in my house which isn't that large. Things just add up. Heat pumps for mutiple zones, E-heat for the associated air handlers (a biggie), sump pumps, well pump (another fairly big one), clothes dryer, dual electric ovens, supplementary heaters in the loos...
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I have 170 amps of breakers in my 1500sqft home with my hot tub and brewery...
The other side of the duplex has 140amps worth of breakers on its own 100 amp service... I dont have most of the amenities your speaking of such as air handlers and heat zones and such though since my home isnt that large. I also dont have a basement so no sump pump and my appliances are gas.
That says you are oversized as 100 Amp service should support roughly 400 amps of breakers. Your examples of doing laundry while dinner is cooking and the A/C is on says otherwise. Are you adding up right? Remember that a 30 amp circuit for a hot tub is 60 amps worth of breakers - 30 amps on each phase.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Why is each phase breaker a 60 amp breaker tied together and not a 30 amp breaker if thats true? my hot tub requires 60 amps not 30. there are (2) motors (3-5hp ) and a large heater as well as air pumps running off of it) just as my brewery requires 2 30 amp breakers tied together... each phase of my main breaker is also 100 amps. I also have other 240v appliances like my fermenter control glycol chiller running intermittently.
So your saying its ok to have more than 100amps being drawn throught the main 100 amp breakers at once like would happen if I had my hot tub, brewery and a couple other houshold appliances running at once? Again my hot tub turns on randomly with all pumps and heaters on full blast to run cleaning cycles multiple times a day it seems. ..I realize that with regular outlets the draw is usually a lot smaller and sporadic than their combined total but large appliances can add up fast.
Because your hot tub needs 60 A per phase, not 30. As I had no idea how much power your hot tub requires I just threw out 30 as an example to show you how to do the calculation. If we rephrase that for your actual hot tub load it is 120 Amps (@ 120V).
So your brewery load is 60 amps. Adding just those two together we get 180 amps which is more than the 170 you said you had so clearly you were not adding them up right.
Meaning that your panel's capacity is 200 amperes at 120V.
No, I did not say that at all.
If that happens and it draws the full capacity of its branch circuit then it will be drawing 60A or 60% of the service capacity. If your brewery's electrics come on at that time and draw 30 A from each phase then the total load is 90A and you only have 10% reserve. If you now plug a 1200 KVA load into a single phase outlet and turn it on you will have a 100 A load on that circuit and the breaker will be at limit. If your wife fires off the range at that point in time you will have an overload and the breaker will trip protecting the service wires.
Hot tub 60A 240 V = 120A
Brewery 30A 240 V = 60 A
Range 50A 240 V = 100 A
Dryer 40A 240V = 80 A
Lights 1500*3/120 = 37.6 A
3 Appliance ckts 60 A
Adding those up gives 457.6A which is more than 4 x 100 so you are, as we knew, undersized. If you weren't undersized you wouldn't have to be worrying about what is on when.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
ok regardless we are on the same page and making the same point. .. Im pointing this out because its one reason went with a 30a circuit for my brewery and not a 50a there are cases where you cant have 800amps worth of breakers working reliably on a much smaller service.
in regards to my setup im very cautious as to whats being used in the house while im brewing or using my hot tub...For example I turn my chiller off while brewing and usually do it when im the only one home. I would venture to guess that most wouldnt pay so much attention.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
You know I just took a closer look and my mains breakers are only 50 amp each! The cover to tie them together makes it hard to see this..... its hard to believe but Ive never had any issues with breakers popping other than running a toaster over off the same circuit as a coffee maker once... whats really crazy is my electrical was all inspected and passed fine after I added my hot tub but before I added the 30a line for my brewery... I wonder how many amps my hot tub is really drawing... and I'm glad I went from metal halode lighting in my reef tank to leds shortly after putting in the brewing line.
Its weird because the mains coming in look to be 4 gauge... perhaps its because they are aluminum.
Its weird because the mains coming in look to be 4 gauge... perhaps its because they are aluminum.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
my dryer, range and furnace are all gas (I was speaking hypothetically when creating examples with them) and I have no large furnace blowers as I have 3 gas fireplaces and a gravity floor furnace... this and the fact that its just my girlfriend and I living here likely is why I have never had an issue.
I run both MHx2 and LEDs (blue) in my tank. I like the ripples on the bottom from the MH. But like you I'll probably go all LED some day.Your house is going to burn down, you will be sued and you will go to jail.
You are telling us that you have a panel with 50 Amp service that has two loads one of which is bigger than 50 (the hot tub) and the other is equal to 50 (the range). I don't know about how inspectors think but if I saw that I'd have questions. I have to assume that you are not correctly interpreting what you are looking at. Pehaps if you posted a picture.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
After looking more closely, My box has a double breaker at the top labeled "light mains" When I turn it off my house goes dark and everything appeared to go dead so I mistakenly assumed they acted as the main breakers but now that I look closer I see there are like 5 other slots labeled main1-5 which are not used except for 2 of them filled with my 240v circuits which I now suspect are not tied to my light mains. the light mains breakers are tied to all my 120v breakers... The electrician who inspected my hot tub told me it was a 100amp service... So I supposed thats likely the case afterall..
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The leds do give the ripple effect like my MH did.. I used to run 3 MH now I have about 400w worth of leds including the homemade dimmable array I made.
At this point all I can do is suggest that you try to find a website or book that explains how a panel is laid out. Most of them in the US have a main breaker at the top (though it can be at the bottom) and parallel vertical bus bars. The bus bars off to the sides are for neutral and earth and the ones in the center are for the two phases. The breakers plug into the central buss bars. A single pole breaker contacts only one of the two center bars (and has a single screw for the wire to the 120 V branch circuit). A double pole breaker contacts both the center bus bars and has two screws for the 240 V branch circuit connected to it. There are other ways to do it and you may have an old installation that differs from what I have described but Square D and GE, ofr example are this way.
Until you gain a fundamental understanding of how a house is wired and, in particular, your house, you can only expect to continue to chase your tail in trying to figure out what is going on.
Try [ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FMbDPyYAfXw[/ame].
This discussion reminds me of the Douglas Appliance # System.
When you add a generator into the system under the 2014 code it's a whole new can of worms as manual load shedding by the owner is no longer sufficient.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I think I understand your your point (and appreciate your concern ) but to play the devils advocate and be honest, (and pardon my ignorance) but isnt the whole point of being able to put 800 amps worth breakers on a 200 amp surface mean that if I was doing something dangerous the breakers would pop on me as well? Why is this important to know, if It doesnt matter anyway since its decided by the breakers ultimately ? (400 amps through a 100 amp service with a defective breaker would start a fire just as 500 amps would right? so?...) others have stated theres no limit to the amount of draw off a service and that the breakers dumb it down for us... I think we both know that if I was pulling 90 amps through a pair of 50 amp breaker it would take the moon and stars aligning just right for both to fail and either if not both to pop right?
While I do apprecviate the info and want to know this myself I also cant help but laugh since its ok to overload the panel with twice whats safe for it but 2.25 times the amount is somehow not ok? dont you find this silly one size fits all approach that doesnt fit whats safe anyway kind of silly?
How would 400 amps of draw on a 100 amp service be realistically any less likely to start a fire than 425 amps on the same 100 amp service? the breakers are either going to work or not work in this scenario.. and if its not about the draw but not intelligently broken down to be about whats running when then how credible of a blind blanket rule is it?
Im not really too concerned about it since If I had a real concern it would have shown its head in the 4+ years ive been drawing this same load off my panel right? All this has shown me is the amp service I have has no responsible correlation to the amount of breakers I put in my box... The intelligent side of me of course makes me consider every load I put on my panel vs my total. and Now I still have no reason to believe that isnt the 100 amp service I was told I had. the240v breakers I have have no main breakers to shut them off as I see it now but the whole time I had the important things right. I thought and assumed I had a simple panel like the one in your illustration but I dont.... and since the wiring standard vary so much I dont even know what 4 awg copper clad aluminum would meet todays code for but since today code wont likely meet code in a couple years anyway Ive become a little jaded about whats really needed and not with the ever changing standards put in place by the folks who often have something to gain financially by it.
I've explained this before but apparently I'm not getting through. If you wish to be compliant with code you will size a panel according to the square footage of your house (for lighting load) and the number and type of appliances and equipment in it. Using the NEC approved load factors you determine the size of the service required. It typically turns out that the ratio of the breaker phase-amperes to the service phase-amperes is around 2 but it doesn't have to be.
The service and the breaker protecting it must be properly sized for safety but home owner inconvenience is also a factor. We don't want, especially in the new code, the home owner to even know what 'load shedding' means and we don't want him to ever have to reset his main breaker so the derating factors are quire conservative. Most of the time you will find your panel running at 20% or less of its capacity. But we also want it to be able to handle the rare peak load.
For the reasons given above. If you can't understand those then I think you will just have to understand that there are some things one cannot understand.
No. The fault energy would be 67% greater in the latter case.
They are, as is so often the case with stuff you pick up off the internet, quite incorrect. There are rules for sizing panels and service equipment based on load and, if one hopes to pass inspection, he must adhere to them.
I don't know what you mean by this. Do you mean two 50 amp breakers in series? If you pull 90 amps through a 50 amp breaker long enough for the breaker's trip I^2t to be exceeded it will pop.
I just looked at the DTG on your post and perhaps that explains statements like this. It is not OK to overload the panel at all. If you overload it the breakers will trip. The installed branch breaker phase-amps to service phase-amps ratio is typically 2. If you come up with that ratio your service is probably properly sized. If it is greater than that you are probably undersized and if it is less, over (but the prudent designer would probably accept that up to a point thinking about possible future expansion). But that factor is not a requirement or a design factor. It is a rule of thumb. The rules you must adhere to are in the code.
This illustrates complete misunderstanding of what I have been trying to convey in the last several posts and given the structure of the sentence I again attribute to a late Sat night with several bottles of your best. But to answer this same question again in perhaps another way that may drive it home: It isn't a rule. It's a rule of thumb. An engineering guideline. A rough FOM. The rules are in the code.
I don't think anyone has suggested that you should take any action other than to try to get to a fundamental understanding of what's involved here. As you cannot adequately describe what is in you panel there is no way we can compute the ROT number and determine whether your service is undersized or not. And if you haven't had the mains breaker pop then you are, demonstrably OK even if the factor is greater than 2.
There is a 'responsible correlation' so if you were to consider adding a load (breakers),then you should consult an electrician or someone else who understands the concept to advise you.
is, for the moment, dormant as he wouldn't make a statement like ...
This would imply that these breakers are connected directly to the service prior to the main disconnect. That is, of course, a flagrant code violation and would never have passed inspection so WRT ...
.. you got this important thing wrong.
As I suggested in an earlier post perhaps if you post a picture of it someone here can help you understand what you have. No guarantee of course...
Yes, the ever changing standards are put in place by people who gain financially by it and you are one of those people. The code is promulgated by the NFPA with the obvious goal of preventing fires. The NFPA is a consortium of insurance companies, electrical equipment manufacturers and other with a stake in the building industry. If they succeed in preventing fires, and other electrical mishaps, the insurance companies don't have to pay out claims but from the homeowners POV an intact house is much better (financially and otherwise) than a fat check and a pile of ashes.
Technology changes a lot and fast. The first issue of the NEC I ever laid eyes on was a booklet (8 x 5 ?) and perhaps 3/8" thick. In those days outlets were two pronged (no earth). There was no Romex. Etc. The code has to keep up. A good example of this was unearthed here. The 2014 code now requires 20Amps for appliance branches whereas the 2002 edition required 15. A modern home has got lots more electrical stuff in it than ones of even a few years back and the code has to keep up.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont believe your understanding me either. I was drinking a lot of homebrew last night so I apoligize but let me explain this again.
I had my panel inspected 10 years ago by 2 separate electricians both before and after I added my hot tub because of concerns of whether I had enough power. I already stated I had an electrician inspect it as per my permit to put in the hot tub. Since then I added 1 30 amp 240v breaker. I have never had any breakers pop as a result. I suppose I could shut off the power to my hot tube at the breaker every time I brew if I really believed it could be a concern. the reality is IF my hot tub does turn on for a cleaning cycle it runs for a few minutes and shuts back off.
I am really not as concerned with the ever changing code in my very old outdated house but more the safety factor I have over the course of the last few years converted all my lighting in my house including my aquarium which previously used 900w alone as well as my main tv to LED lighting The fact that my electric bill has dropped almost $45 a month tells me im using less power not more. My house is 200 years old and although most of the wiring has been updated there are still some ceiling lights on the old system, These are honestly more of a concern than the 17-25a or so im drawing while brewing.
BTW my neighbor burned her house down by plugging in a window ac unit to a lampcord extension cord (obviously not a smart move) and somehow despite this the insurance company covered rebuilding and there temporary housing so since I hear so much fear of them not paying I figured Id chime in with the one actual real case I know of.
I had my panel inspected 10 years ago by 2 separate electricians both before and after I added my hot tub because of concerns of whether I had enough power. I already stated I had an electrician inspect it as per my permit to put in the hot tub. Since then I added 1 30 amp 240v breaker. I have never had any breakers pop as a result. I suppose I could shut off the power to my hot tube at the breaker every time I brew if I really believed it could be a concern. the reality is IF my hot tub does turn on for a cleaning cycle it runs for a few minutes and shuts back off.
I am really not as concerned with the ever changing code in my very old outdated house but more the safety factor I have over the course of the last few years converted all my lighting in my house including my aquarium which previously used 900w alone as well as my main tv to LED lighting The fact that my electric bill has dropped almost $45 a month tells me im using less power not more. My house is 200 years old and although most of the wiring has been updated there are still some ceiling lights on the old system, These are honestly more of a concern than the 17-25a or so im drawing while brewing.
BTW my neighbor burned her house down by plugging in a window ac unit to a lampcord extension cord (obviously not a smart move) and somehow despite this the insurance company covered rebuilding and there temporary housing so since I hear so much fear of them not paying I figured Id chime in with the one actual real case I know of.
This is a lot more understandable for sure and I have all along understood that you are basically saying "If it ain't broke, don't fix it." Apparently it ain't broke. At the same time I have been laboring under the impression that you wanted to understand how things work and why and that's what I have been trying to explain.
If you add loads that increase the load factor above 2 (but you have decreased it by going to LEDs) you are increasing the probability, not the certainty, that there will be a problem - a problem that the main breaker is designed to protect you against should it occur. If that problem does occur then you have to decide whether you want to live with it or get your service upgraded. The latter is, of course, much more dysphoric than having to flip a breaker once or twice a year but if it happens frequently then you should think about it. Are you still safe? Well yes, but you are not belt and suspenders safe. Whether you are comfortable with just one or want both is entirely up to you to decide.
If you add loads that increase the load factor above 2 (but you have decreased it by going to LEDs) you are increasing the probability, not the certainty, that there will be a problem - a problem that the main breaker is designed to protect you against should it occur. If that problem does occur then you have to decide whether you want to live with it or get your service upgraded. The latter is, of course, much more dysphoric than having to flip a breaker once or twice a year but if it happens frequently then you should think about it. Are you still safe? Well yes, but you are not belt and suspenders safe. Whether you are comfortable with just one or want both is entirely up to you to decide.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I have not had to flip a breaker yet in 4 years. (well I do turn my gfci off every time im done brewing but that doesnt count what does have me concerned is I was under the impression that the 2 breakers and the top on my panel were tied to everything else , not just my 120v plugs as it appears they are... And yes I am curious to learn and do want it to be safe. Again I apologize for my drunken bipolar post.. at the same time I was wrestling with the ignorant blissful point of view in that I havent had a single issue yet and there's likely a good reason for that. One thing I should do is get an accurate amp draw off my hot tub.. Theres a possibility that even though all the motors and pumps are running that perhaps the heaters are not necessarily at the same time..
That said at any given time I have no other major devices running while brewing but perhaps a couple pcs, my reef tank, fridges and some lights.. So while my setup may not be ideal with the extra breaker added its really very likely at this point that it "Just works" due to my conscious effort to not having a lot of things running at once. Since im the only one using my brewery I feel a little better about this.
One thing is for sure though... I'm very glad I didnt try to install a 50a brewing line.
what does have me concerned is I was under the impression that the 2 breakers and the top on my panel were tied to everything else , not just my 120v plugs as it appears they are... And yes I am curious to learn and do want it to be safe. Again I apologize for my drunken bipolar post.. at the same time I was wrestling with the ignorant blissful point of view in that I havent had a single issue yet and there's likely a good reason for that. One thing I should do is get an accurate amp draw off my hot tub.. Theres a possibility that even though all the motors and pumps are running that perhaps the heaters are not necessarily at the same time.. That said at any given time I have no other major devices running while brewing but perhaps a couple pcs, my reef tank, fridges and some lights.. So while my setup may not be ideal with the extra breaker added its really very likely at this point that it "Just works" due to my conscious effort to not having a lot of things running at once. Since im the only one using my brewery I feel a little better about this.
One thing is for sure though... I'm very glad I didnt try to install a 50a brewing line.
If you passed an inspection everything is tied together somehow somewhere. Every branch breaker in your panel (or any other panel) is connected behind (downstream of) your service disconnect and current limiting device (which may be the same thing e.g. another breaker. You just need to figure out where this is.
Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact that this is not a simple matter of 10 bulbs which draw 1 amp apiece requiring a 10 amp circuit. You have many loads of different sizes any of which may or may not be on at any given time. You need to size your service such that these can be accommodated 99.999% of the time and safe even for those remaining 0.0001%. So now you are looking at statistics which send many running screaming for the hills (1000 statisticians laid end to end wouldn't reach a conclusion) but you really have no other way to get a handle on things other than to observe that you haven't had to flip a breaker in 4 years. That says you are fine for now but if planning an expansion you need to have something to guide you and, short of brute force increasing service by 50 amps to accommodate a new 50 amp load statistical methods are all that is left to you.
Perhaps the confusion arises from the fact that this is not a simple matter of 10 bulbs which draw 1 amp apiece requiring a 10 amp circuit. You have many loads of different sizes any of which may or may not be on at any given time. You need to size your service such that these can be accommodated 99.999% of the time and safe even for those remaining 0.0001%. So now you are looking at statistics which send many running screaming for the hills (1000 statisticians laid end to end wouldn't reach a conclusion) but you really have no other way to get a handle on things other than to observe that you haven't had to flip a breaker in 4 years. That says you are fine for now but if planning an expansion you need to have something to guide you and, short of brute force increasing service by 50 amps to accommodate a new 50 amp load statistical methods are all that is left to you.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
The breaker in the light main 1 position are in fact 50amp breakers. I dont see how they could possibly be the cutoffs for everything else. it would never pass inspection... I usnderstand "light main" to be for the single phase 120v slots only (everything not already labeled "Main" )... that would make sense. I could always pull the cover and look
![IMG_20170206_105952810[1].jpg](https://cdn.homebrewtalk.com/data/attach/332/332156-IMG-20170206-105952810-1-.jpg "IMG_20170206_105952810[1].jpg")
From that picture it is clear that the main breaker is in another location such as in the box with or in a box near where the meter is. If you take the cover off this box you will find the two vertical bus bars I've described before and as shown in the video. You will find two lugs at the top of those bars where the feeder connects and wires from those will go off to the main disconnect wherever it is. You will also find two additional lugs, one for the neutral and one for earth. They also go to the enclosure with the main disconnect.
The "Light Main" breaker is a little puzzling but if, as you say, all the lights go off in the house when you flip it I guess it is just what it says it is, the main breaker for the lights. Strange (to me anyway) that they would put all the lights on this single circuit (or pair of circuits actually) but it looks as if that's what they did.
The "Light Main" breaker is a little puzzling but if, as you say, all the lights go off in the house when you flip it I guess it is just what it says it is, the main breaker for the lights. Strange (to me anyway) that they would put all the lights on this single circuit (or pair of circuits actually) but it looks as if that's what they did.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Well I can say for sure there are no other breakers or boxes... The wires run out the wall through the house and right to the meter mounted on the side of the house. perhaps there is a shutoff inside the meter somewhere. Yes I have had the cover off, when I first moved in I added two new 20a circuits for addtional plugs on the second floor as well as to add the hot tub and brewery breaker.
No perhaps about it. There is a disconnecting (and current limiting) means in the meter box (if that is the only other box) and you need to know where it is. It has to be readily accessible to the occupant and should be clearly marked. As the home owner you need to know where it is in case the unthinkable happens. If you can't find it you should have an electrician come in and show you (and your SO) where it is and how to operate it.
Then you can confirm what I put in the last post.
Now you've got square d breakers in a Bryant panel. I hope you didn't pay a professional to do that.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
No I took a breaker to the store and this is what they told me I needed at the home depot when I bought my first breaker. They fit and the contacts are the same so what does it matter? It was inspected and they didnt have an issue with it either? some of them such as the 60amp one for my hot tub has been in there 17 years now with no problem.
Is this some kind of thing where an electrician wouldnt be caught dead with the type of square D breaker sold at a home improvement store because I could care less about that honestly... If the ones at the home depot or lowes werent safe for home use I honestly think they wouldnt be selling them.
So from what im reading is this a case where politics and $$ in relation to the UL listing thing shows how silly it can be. Let me guess even though they are the same compatible design and both UL listed in their own right, neither brand would pay to have the competitors brand tested with theirs so they are not ul listed to be used together?
No. They are not listed to be in that panel. Cutier Hammer BR is the proper breaker. BR is an abbreviation for Bryant I've heard. Just thought I'd play the nit pick game too
I have seen the wrong breaker make a bad connection and melt down though.
I have seen the wrong breaker make a bad connection and melt down though.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
you must have added this while I was adding I found the same thing... this kind of sillyness makes UL listing less practical IMO. standards driven by a profit organization which charges a lot for their blessing and competitors who dont want you to shop competitively so not surprisingly wont pay to have others components "blessed" to be used with theirs. These breakers fit the same and latch onto the bars the same way as the older ones in there do.No. They are not listed to be in that panel. Cutier Hammer BR is the proper breaker. BR is an abbreviation for Bryant I've heard. Just thought I'd play the not pick game too
Take an IR photo of the panel with the loads on and put your mind to rest.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont have one but I do have an IR temp gun?
When I posted the suggestion I was thinking you might want to rent one for a couple of hours but then on a whim and chuckling as I did so I typed in "iphone thermal" and sure enough:
http://www.flir.com/flirone/ios-android/
I don't think an IR thermometer is going to do it because the acceptance cone is too wide for you to be able to tell exactly where the heat is coming from.
http://www.flir.com/flirone/ios-android/
I don't think an IR thermometer is going to do it because the acceptance cone is too wide for you to be able to tell exactly where the heat is coming from.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
yeah I already tried one of these apps for my android phone but it ended up being a bogus app that was just a medium for spyware.
I don't think that's the case here as, to quote from the Wikipedia article on them "FLIR Systems is the world's largest commercial company specializing in the design and production of thermal imaging cameras, components and imaging sensors."
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I tried it.. it required the actual flir camera that attaches to the phone.
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