Inspectors will not allow it on new construction, but they will allow it on a retrofit. They'll ask that you put red tape on the white conductor to signify that it is now the other hot.
Agreed. I stated this in my post.
How to get 240VAC in your kitchen without rewiring...
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Agreed. I stated this in my post.
It's allowed by the code so inspectors do permit it on new construction in some jurisdictions at least. That's why I asked where you are but if you don't want to tell us where you are (undercover assignment for the CIA?) you don't have to.
It will trip GFCI circuits. Not all circuits in a kitchen are required to be GFCI. Only those in proximity to water.
In summary, there are actually 4 ways to get 240VAC into a kitchen without pulling new wire.
1) find a 14/3 or 12/3 circuit and repurpose it as a 15 or 20A 120/240VAC circuit.
2) rewire an existing 14/2 15A 120VAC circuit as a 15A 240VAC circuit.
3) connect into a 240VAC stove circuit. Several ways to do this.
4) use the suggested converter panel to get 15A 240VAC from 2 15A 120VAC receptacles that are wired on opposite phases.
Using one of these methods should cover 80% of the situations where a brewer needs 240VAC in a kitchen.
1) find a 14/3 or 12/3 circuit and repurpose it as a 15 or 20A 120/240VAC circuit.
2) rewire an existing 14/2 15A 120VAC circuit as a 15A 240VAC circuit.
3) connect into a 240VAC stove circuit. Several ways to do this.
4) use the suggested converter panel to get 15A 240VAC from 2 15A 120VAC receptacles that are wired on opposite phases.
Using one of these methods should cover 80% of the situations where a brewer needs 240VAC in a kitchen.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
Yes that's what I thought I clarified in the last sentence you quoted... Does the service line match the main breaker..
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Never hear of a FUD attack. But I wasn't making an attack, just providing an opinion.
Nope, I didn't do any research, but since you asked, here's some information about home fires including those caused by electrical problems.
http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-resear...lectrical-and-consumer-electronics/electrical
The statistics listed show 60% of electrical fires are caused by wiring and distribution problems. It doesn't specify entrance wiring problems so who knows if any were caused by that? Its probably rare, but it could happen.
So how much research did you do? What kind of entrance wire do you currently have? Copper? Aluminum? Copper clad aluminum? And exactly what size is it?
The new services I've installed required an inspection and a signature before they would turn the power back on. Sure contractors cut corners, but that doesn't make it right.
Hopefully, your inspector will sign off on your service panel and you can get the meter changed and everything will be great.
But is wishful thinking really the best process when it comes to electricity and people's safety?
And how big a mistake does it take to get killed by electricity? There's no way to answer that. A buddy at work had his whole house burn down when a small fan malfunctioned. It happened when they were home asleep and barely got out there and couldn't save anything. OK thats an appliance problem not a wiring issue, but it shows that sometimes sh*t happens. Another acquaintance was electrocuted when the microwave truck he was operating came in contact with a live wire and the circuit grounded through him. It was a gruesome sight and a very bad day for me.
Hey, do what you think is best, but trying to save a some money doesn't always work out in the long run, especially when it comes to safety issues.
You win ! Don't do any wiring in your house.
i should have clarified on wrapping the white conductor, that only applies if part of a cable assembly (e.g. romex). not allowed for individual conductors (i.e. conduit installation) and that marking would need to be done at the panel and at the box for the receptacle to meet code.
my point about the gfci receptacles is that many folks brew in a kitchen, those receptacles could not be used for this application.
not per current code (or going back many revision cycles). any receptacle at a countertop surface in a kitchen needs gfci protection, regardless if it is near a source of water. that's been a requirement for at least 20 years.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Doing wiring repairs or up grades isn't the same as putting in a new service panel
Sounds like you don't know what the size or material of the wire that's going from the pole to the meter? You probably have to break the seal and open up the meter base to see what's actually there. I'm guessing you didn't do that or the power company would have busted you by now.
How about from the meter base to your service panel? If the original builder was trying to be cheap and install a 100 amp panel, is there a chance the wire from the meter base to the panel isn't the right size for a 200 amp load? I'd say its at least a possibility.
You might want to at least look into it.....but then again, maybe nothing will ever happen.
From post #32 in this thread.
If they'll give me an Internet connection from jail, I'll let you guys know when my garage burns down. After I get out of the hospital, of course and after I get back from applying for bankruptcy at the courthouse.
Next topic: UL certification for your heatsticks !
Why are you encouraging people to do dangerous things? What you propose in your original post and the drawings added later is dangerous and indefensible. Stop! Just stop.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
lol hey Im dealing with this now... Looking at opening a brewery and it seems the chinese made elements are not UL listed (except the ones ebrew supply sells even though Im 99% sure I found the company who makes the ones he sells and according to them they are not ul listed so..) Kal did say that many manufacturers he spoke to offered to put fake certification stickers on them so who knows..
It appears that it also can depend on how much you bribe, Em I mean work with local inspectors.
.. a system I'm not unfamiliar with from a previous job as a maintenance man.. Or how lenient they choose to be to enforce their local codes.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
I dont know about censoring... Its really up to the individual to be smart enough to read all the information himself and make up his or her own mind... *Disclaimer* I'm all for Darwinism though...Exactly this!
This is a thread that should be censored!
On the flip side, I'm still waiting for the 18g speaker wire I'm using for 24v DC on a 1 amp load to my pumps bust into flames because its not certified for power use as many here insisted it would 4 years ago....So I guess im a hypocrite for thinking many of the suggestions presented here are not wise although I'll admit I didnt bother to read some of the explanations behind all of the shortcuts taken.
I honestly believe that anyone modifying the wiring in their home has a responsibility to do it according to code, and have it inspected/certified. If you want to do some crazy temporary **** at your own Darwinistic risk, that's cool by me. Sure, split receptacles or other whacko ideas... But don't promote electrical hazards... the uninformed may actually believe because it is on the net it might be right.
Excuse me ? What is dangerous about any of my suggestions ?
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Well, Anyone who changes from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel without knowing what size or type of wire is required or in place for the service entrance, and then posts comments about how much money they saved doing it without permits or inspections or regard to safety issues, just isn't a reliable source of information. I don't think the OP shouldn't be censored at all. But the fact that the OP refused to answer specific, direct questions and admitted to violating the electrical code, and probably the law, indicates that the information provided in the OP's posts are questionable and should be considered very carefully.
Exactly this!
This is a thread that should be censored!
Is that a NEMA 4x enclosure sitting under your pots ?
Those XLR connector are not certified for anything other than home use.
The 240VAC receptacles you chose are not suitable for wet location. Those are dry location receptacles.
The pumps have no splash shielding on them.
And you have hot kettles sitting on MDF, something that is neither rated for wet locations nor good at elevated temperatures.
Wow, buddy. Get your facts straight.
madscientist451
Well-Known Member
Hey "buddy", I asked you what size and type wire you have coming from the pole to your meter and from the meter to the panel and you didn't answer....Here are some more facts:
Around here, the electrical code is written in to law. Any activity that circumvents the permit process or intentionally violates the electrical code is also a violation of the law.
In your state, maybe its different, I don't know.
You also stated that the meter is designed for 100 amp and since you may be pulling a higher load now it isn't reading the actual consumption properly, so that sounds like a theft of electricity. The power company people around here are inflexible A-holes. I hope, for your sake, that they are a little more easy going in your area.
Around here, the electrical code is written in to law. Any activity that circumvents the permit process or intentionally violates the electrical code is also a violation of the law.
In your state, maybe its different, I don't know.
You also stated that the meter is designed for 100 amp and since you may be pulling a higher load now it isn't reading the actual consumption properly, so that sounds like a theft of electricity. The power company people around here are inflexible A-holes. I hope, for your sake, that they are a little more easy going in your area.
Let's take it easy guys. There should be a warning that pops up on the screen when you post a sentence that ends with an exclamation. "Are you sure you want to start yelling? Yes/Cancel".
I think it's enough to point out construction that might violate electrical code, and also voice your concerns about safety. Please don't get emotional though. That's not helpful.
We do some pretty sketchy stuff here. We, as in Joe 6pack, trying to wire up his own 50A panel based on an old PJ drawing. I remember the guy that made an electric boil kettle, with an element, in a Home Depot bucket. Haha.
I think it's enough to point out construction that might violate electrical code, and also voice your concerns about safety. Please don't get emotional though. That's not helpful.
We do some pretty sketchy stuff here. We, as in Joe 6pack, trying to wire up his own 50A panel based on an old PJ drawing. I remember the guy that made an electric boil kettle, with an element, in a Home Depot bucket. Haha.
There are. I hope you're appreciative of that.
I went looking for the plastic bucket brew kettle video and instead found that it's a pretty common practice. Hmmm. Anyway, just closing the loop on a previous comment, don't want to change the topic here. Carry on
Reliance on the 240V breaker in your suggestion is dangerous.
You suggestion to use two 120V outlets that are fed from the alternate polarities of the 240V and therefore on independent circuit breakers to power a 240V circuit is inherently unsafe. The perceived protection from a ganged circuit breaker downstream from the 120V circuit breakers does not offer reliable protection because there is no way to ensure that the 240V breaker will open first without under-sizing it to the point of rendering the whole idea useless.
The suggestion others have proposed of using two 120V burners in parallel makes equal use of the available utility service without inherent dangers of your proposal.
You are using two independent circuits to power a common load. There is no assurance that both breaker will open.
For this discussion the exact nature of the load is irrelevant.
One of the first boil kettles I had was a British product with a heater in a plastic bucket. It had a nice stencil of hop vines on it. You cut off the Pommie plug and stuck on a clothes dryer plug and merrily boiled away. The 'controller' was a thermostat with a knob on the outside that sensed the temperature of the boiling worth through the plastic.
So what if they don't ?
No it isn't. Powerful induction heaters need 240VAC. You can't fit 2 of them under a pot.
Then there is still power present in the load. This poses a serious shock hazard to the operator if any attempt is made to service the device without opening the other leg of the circuit. Even people with good training and skills can make mistakes. If you are comfortable doing it in your system that is your business. This is way to risky to be advocating that others use this method of sourcing power, especially without knowing their understanding of electrical circuitry, safety management, and skill level assembling this type of equipment.
It does not matter. There is no reason to be cavalier about safety, especially the safety of others.
UNPLUG IT ! There is a plug on the other side of the GFCI. Is it too much to ask that the brewery equipment gets unplugged before the operator services it ? Or maybe we could ask the operator to trip the GCFI breaker ? It is right there !
And if it really bother you that much that the breakers of both 120VAC receptacles don't trip in an overload situation, then move the wires in the house panel such that the breakers are side by side and use one of these:
It is a breaker tie bar. It is used to tie breakers together, so that when one trips, so does the other.
And anyone that works on AC power system needs one of these:
When you open up a piece of high voltage equipment you NEVER rely on the breaker to protect you from a shock. What if someone flipped off the wrong breaker ? What if the circuit is wired incorrectly and neutral is still hot ? What if the breaker is shorted ?
You ALWAYS test the circuit with a non contact voltage tester. ALWAYS. NO EXCEPTIONS. You don't even open the box unless you have the tester handy.
While we are on the topic of servicing live equipment, the door on 99% of the electric brewery panels can be opened without interrupting the power within the panel. That is a violation of electrical code/practice. That is way more dangerous than having only 1 breaker of this setup trip on an overload. Are you going to tell all the ebrewery panel owners to fix their designs ? What is stopping them from being electrocuted while servicing their equipment ?
One could also wire relays into the supply panel such that if one plug loses voltage (due to a breaker tripping or a plug becoming unplugged) it disconnects the supply from the other plug.
I'll draw up a diagram if anyone wants it.
One other thing - the brewery equipment that the operator would be servicing is fed by the GFCI in the panel. Should he create a path between a hot conductor and ground or neutral he will trip the GFCI. One should never rely on a GCFI to prevent injury, but it is nice to know that its here and probably would.
I'll draw up a diagram if anyone wants it.
One other thing - the brewery equipment that the operator would be servicing is fed by the GFCI in the panel. Should he create a path between a hot conductor and ground or neutral he will trip the GFCI. One should never rely on a GCFI to prevent injury, but it is nice to know that its here and probably would.
I apologize in advance if this was covered (didn't read whole thread) but if you use two 120V ckts in your kitchen to create 240, and replace the 120V breakers in the breaker box with GFCI's, won't they (well, one of them) trip instantly? Half the current (one half cycle) will be going to another ckt.
correct. the proposed arrangement will not work if either of the two receptacles have upstream gfci circuit breakers or if the receptacles themselves are gfci protected...which is basically any receptacle in a modern kitchen if the kitchen was built to code.
One could do a lot of things. Considering that it seems you original purpose is to derive a cheap and dirty source of 240V how would adding the complexity of all this be cheaper or easier than installing a proper 240V run from the load center to the brewery?
Regading your previous post: The breaker bridge seems like a suitable solution; relying on "common sense" is not.
Just looking back over this thread I came on this:
What is meant by a "phase generator"? Is it a winding on a step up transformer? Is it a generator (dynamo) connected to a motor? Is it an electronic inverter connected to a rectifier? Is it a winding on a 3ø motor that is being single phased? Is it a relativity condenser?
All these will convert 120 to 240 (well, maybe not the last one). The only one that is practical is the first and that only if the 120V feeding it can supply sufficient current.
What is meant by a "phase generator"? Is it a winding on a step up transformer? Is it a generator (dynamo) connected to a motor? Is it an electronic inverter connected to a rectifier? Is it a winding on a 3ø motor that is being single phased? Is it a relativity condenser?
All these will convert 120 to 240 (well, maybe not the last one). The only one that is practical is the first and that only if the 120V feeding it can supply sufficient current.
augiedoggy
Well-Known Member
any of the above... I only know they exist because we actually had customers use them to power some of our equipment in certain countries and situations..
You know more about them than me. I have a couple customers myself that come to mind with much smaller 208 to 240v 20a step up tranformers for a piece of equipment I service that wont run on 208v. but both phases are already present there.
That would be quite a transformer to supply 30 or 50A
10kVAI've got a 1:6 100VA transformer here for creating a 600VAC supply for something I'm working on. It's pretty hefty.
And also this:
That's actually pretty typical. Remember that a 200 amp main panel breaker implies feeder wire sized for 200 amps on each phase so that the panel can accommodate 400 amps worth of 120 V breakers.
I've a stinking suspicion that many electricians ask the customer what kind and how many circuits he wants, add them up and just divides by 4 to get the size of the main breaker and wire rather than do the detailed calculation but it is only a suspicion.
Now if you go in and install an electric brewery and you wife installs a kiln at the same time and the factor goes over x 4 can you "argue*" to the inspector you never brew on the same day she fires her pottery? No idea.
*I remember asking a site supervisor once about his plans for the weekend. His response was that his outfit was starting its first job in DC on Monday and that he was going to spend the weekend practicing folding $20 bills so they would fit inside matchbook covers.
That's actually pretty typical. Remember that a 200 amp main panel breaker implies feeder wire sized for 200 amps on each phase so that the panel can accommodate 400 amps worth of 120 V breakers.
There's no restriction on the number of breakers installed in a panel as long as the feeder/service is sized to support the loads. Sizing in figured out by taking 3 KVA per square foot, 2400 [Edit] per appliance circuit... plus the loads for air conditioners, clothes driers, ranges, motors and other things. As obviously not all the loads are on at the same time there are derating factors for some of the loads. The service or feeder wire for the panel is based on the load as adjusted by the derating facors if applicable. It usually turns out that the total breaker capacity is twice the required panel disconnect capacity e.g. 200 amp main breaker, capacity 2 x 200 = 400; installed breakers 2 x 400 = 800.
I've a stinking suspicion that many electricians ask the customer what kind and how many circuits he wants, add them up and just divides by 4 to get the size of the main breaker and wire rather than do the detailed calculation but it is only a suspicion.
Now if you go in and install an electric brewery and you wife installs a kiln at the same time and the factor goes over x 4 can you "argue*" to the inspector you never brew on the same day she fires her pottery? No idea.
*I remember asking a site supervisor once about his plans for the weekend. His response was that his outfit was starting its first job in DC on Monday and that he was going to spend the weekend practicing folding $20 bills so they would fit inside matchbook covers.
I don't need to do any of this. I pulled 2x 12/3 into my brewery last night and I'm pulling a single 12/3 into my kitchen today. I'll pull a 12/3 to the patio in spring. My house will be wired. I'll have power everywhere I want to brew. It's great being your own electrician.
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