How to get 240VAC in your kitchen without rewiring...

[brewman !]

This post will, I hope, prevent someone from being as stupid as I was. I bought a summer house with no garage and so undertook the building of one with an apartment above it. In the course of figuring out what we would have to do to merge the old and new electrical systems I started tracing out the system in the old house and noticed that the row of duplex outlets in the kitchen were wired with one outlet connected to one phase and the other to the other. I'd never seen that before and puzzled as to why it was done that way.

A year later I am standing in my new shop looking at the neat new row of 120V and 240 V outlets (I had the electrician put in several for future purchases of 240 V tools) and it hit me. If I had been smart enough to tell the guy to pull 12/3 to the 240V outlets instead of 12/2 I would have the option of 240V or 120V outlets in those boxes I told him to wire for 240. But, alas, I told him they were to be 240V outlets and he pulled 12/2. Of course it's irreversible at this point (except at huge expense and trouble).

Relevant to the original question I can, in the kitchen of the original house, easily obtain 240 at one of those boxes by replacing the 120V outlets with an appropriate 240 V outlet.

The message here is that if you want the option of 120 or 240 in new construction pull 3 conductor (plus neutral) to that box even though you may never use it. There are, of course, implications as to what you do in the panel with respect to breakers.

Most people don't understand how a 14/3 or 12/3 circuit actually works. The reasoning behind using 1 neutral wire for 2 15A circuits is that the 2 hots are supposed to be wired to opposite "phases" of the 240V supply. When this happens, with equal loads on the 120VAC circuits the neutral currents are out of phase and actually cancel each other. With equal loads on the 120VAC circuits, there is actually zero current in the neutral. Worst case, with one 120VAC circuit maxed out at 15A and the other circuit unused, the neutral carries 15A.

HOWEVER, if the 14/3 circuit is miswired at the breaker box and both 120VAC circuits are on the same phase, the neutral wire carries 2x the rated current worse case. It is VERY easy to check this with a multimeter. The 2 hots on every 14/3 circuit should have 240VAC across them. If they are wired wrong, they will have 0V across them. You just open up the breaker box and trace every 14/3 circuit to the breakers and then measure the voltage across the 2 breaker wire connect screws. Takes 10 minutes to do a box. Some electricians don't understand this.

For receptacles in our kitchen in the areas for high loads, ie toaster, coffee pot, tea pot, toaster oven, etc, I pulled 14/3 to each outlet box, then split the receptacle, wiring each receptacle on its own breaker. The extra cost involved is the difference between running 14/2 and 14/2 and 1 extra breaker. Small price to pay for never having to worry about tripping a breaker when running big load appliances.

 

[brewman !]

I've done some of my own electrical work including some 3 phase for my business, and quite a bit for various homes I've owned and agree that its a good thing to learn/know about. I also agree that you can save a lot of cash by doing some of your own work.
I'm not a professional, but the pictures look like a job well done, at least what I can see from here.
Two things that weren't mentioned though, could be problems.
The "hot box" swap obviously didn't include a permit or an inspection.
Or maybe you got an inspection sticker to go on the box?

I have an open homeowner electrical permit on the house at the moment. I was waiting to complete this work to close off the permit. And the basement was developed prior to me buying the house and that work wasn't done under a permit at all. This is not uncommon. So when everything is done, I'll call for an inspection and everything will be completed properly.

I had an inspection done on the renovation wiring prior to closing it up. It passed with flying colors. I also showed the inspector a few things they missed in the new house inspection and how I fixed them.

If you ever go to sell your house, any home inspector is going to notice if your electrical panels have been installed with out an inspector's sticker and signature. That's the way they do it around here anyway, I don't know what they do in your area.

They will be inspected by then. FWIW, I discussed the installation of the second panel with the building inspectors prior to doing it.

Another issue it the service cable from the pole/transformer to your house. If your original service was an old 100 amp panel, one could presume the cable from the pole is equally old and sized for that level of electrical service?

None of this stuff was old. The house was built in 2008. The builder did a poor job of specing the service.

The overhead line feed is the same for 100A and 200A services in our area. The conductors from the garage panel to the overhead line are good for 200A. But the meter is only rated for 100A. We'll update that in the near future. Technically we are in violation. Practically I'm not worried about it. The biggest issue with running the wrong meter is that it doesn't measure accurately outside its nameplate rating, ie 100A in this case.

Something to think about when doing this kind of work is the possible "exposure" both financially and to you or others personal safety.
If there is a fire because of electrical problems and you face a loss or someone is injured or killed will the $1500 you saved be considered a good investment? What about criminal proceedings for an injury caused by gross negligence (failure to get a permit/inspection would be proof of that) what if a fire fighter is injured or killed.

Nice FUD attack. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Did you do any research prior to posting that ? Can you point to any cases where this has actually occurred or is it folklore ?

How big of a wiring mistake do you think it would take to cause a fire or cause someone to be killed or injured ?

If you ever sell the house, and a the un-inspected panels are discovered, you will probably pay more than $1500 to get it sorted out and may face a fine for doing the work without proper permits.

There is no fine for doing work outside of a permit. Some "professionals" do it all the time. The basement development in our house was done without a permit. It is possible to get post work inspections done. They cost a bit more, but nothing outrageous. It takes longer for the inspector to have a look at things. They'll ask you to open up various outlet boxes and switches for the inspection.

I have an old house and an old service panel and consider myself fully capable of doing a "hot box" swap, but I'm not going to do that.

Unless you have been trained in HV electricity and have experience doing line work and the proper tools and gear, you ARE NOT capable of safely doing a hot panel swap. DO NOT DO IT. There is no breaker between the electrical line and the panel. The only breaker on the system is what the power company has on the line and that isn't going to care about the 40A burning your arms and going through your heart. Electrical burns are a very real and serious thing.

I shouldn't have mentioned doing the hot panel swap. I didn't want to lie and say that I did the work all myself, so I shared the big reason why I was using outside help.

The downside is just not worth it.

To you.

When I have the money to do it with all the proper permits and inspections it will get done.

The inspection process is the same whether the home owner does it or a contractor. I've seen contractors take short cuts. Worst part about that is they tend to hide them.

My final thought is that anyone out there considering doing their own electrical upgrades can make that decision themselves, but at the same time you should consider your total financial risk and the possible risk to others.

If you don't take short cuts, these are both zero.

 

[brewman !]

This would completely depend on the whether GFCI protection (that meets code) is needed on the 240v line right?

12/2 has 2 conductors plus a ground wire (3 total conductors with ground) as far as I remember and can easily be used for either 240v (without a gfci like used in a dryer wiring configuration) or 120v ... the 12/3 would still have the advantage to either be used for a 240v gfci outlet or a 120v gfci outlet..

You can use a 2 pole GFCI to protect a split phase circuit if it also supplies 240VAC. It will still protect each of the 120VAC circuits. The only drawback is that if you trip one of the 120VAC circuits, it is going to trip the breaker for the other circuit too.

 

[ajdelange]

I have an open homeowner electrical permit on the house at the moment.

Jurisdiction? Please.

 

[brewman !]

Jurisdiction? Please.

Why does it matter ?

 

[brewman !]

I cannot figure why you need 240V instead of running 2x 120V from different circuits. Install two separate coils.

Some people want to use 240VAC induction heaters.

 

[ajdelange]

You just open up the breaker box and trace every 14/3 circuit to the breakers and then measure the voltage across the 2 breaker wire connect screws.Takes 10 minutes to do a box.

Less than that if you just stick your VM probes into the two narrow (hot) slots in in the two outlets in the box in question. Should read 240 if wired properly, 0 OW. No need to remove the panel cover.

For receptacles in our kitchen in the areas for high loads, ie toaster, coffee pot, tea pot, toaster oven, etc, I pulled 14/3 to each outlet box, then split the receptacle, wiring each receptacle on its own breaker.

So now I know of two houses that have this. Anyone else?

 

[itsnotrequired]

Another way to get 240VAC in the kitchen or garage is to change the breaker and receptacle(s) on a 120VAC 15A (or 20A) circuit.

Residential wire is rated by current and the same wire is used to carry 120 or 240VAC. Any 120VAC 15A receptacle can be rewired to be a 240VAC receptacle by replacing the 120VAC receptacle with a 240VAC 15A receptacle. You'll have to do this for all the receptacles on that circuit and make sure that there are no lights or other loads tied into the circuit.

To complete the change you need to change the single pole breaker in the breaker box with a 15A double pole (GCFI) breaker.

this is a code violation. the old white neutral from the previous installation will now be a hot conductor. hots cannot be white in this application. it will work but not meet code. this also really only works if it is an isolated receptacle on a single circuit, otherwise every other receptacle on the circuit will be 240v as well.

Here is the circuit that I am proposing.

i don't believe that will work if the 120v receptacles already have gfci protection (like in a kitchen). the return neutral current will not be balanced between the two circuits.

 

[ajdelange]

Why does it matter ?

Obviously, because not all jurisdictions allow this.

 

[ajdelange]

this is a code violation. the old white neutral from the previous installation will now be a hot conductor. hots cannot be white in this application.

No worry there. A white conductor is easily converted to ungrounded status simply by wrapping a little black or red tape around it at each end. But here he isn't in a box at all. He is just plugging into a couple of outlets and running to a box with a breaker and 240 V outlet in it. Probably won't get UL approval but who cares?

i don't believe that will work if the 120v receptacles already have gfci protection (like in a kitchen). the return neutral current will not be balanced between the two circuits.

No, it won't. There is NO neutral current in those outlets to balance the phase currents and a GFCI will trip. The outlets he plugs into cannot be GFCI outlets.

 

[brewman !]

this is a code violation. the old white neutral from the previous installation will now be a hot conductor. hots cannot be white in this application. it will work but not meet code.

Inspectors will not allow it on new construction, but they will allow it on a retrofit. They'll ask that you put red tape on the white conductor to signify that it is now the other hot.

this also really only works if it is an isolated receptacle on a single circuit, otherwise every other receptacle on the circuit will be 240v as well.

Agreed. I stated this in my post.

 

[ajdelange]

Inspectors will not allow it on new construction, but they will allow it on a retrofit. They'll ask that you put red tape on the white conductor to signify that it is now the other hot.

It's allowed by the code so inspectors do permit it on new construction in some jurisdictions at least. That's why I asked where you are but if you don't want to tell us where you are (undercover assignment for the CIA?) you don't have to.

 

[brewman !]

i don't believe that will work if the 120v receptacles already have gfci protection (like in a kitchen). the return neutral current will not be balanced between the two circuits.

It will trip GFCI circuits. Not all circuits in a kitchen are required to be GFCI. Only those in proximity to water.

 

[brewman !]

In summary, there are actually 4 ways to get 240VAC into a kitchen without pulling new wire.

1) find a 14/3 or 12/3 circuit and repurpose it as a 15 or 20A 120/240VAC circuit.

2) rewire an existing 14/2 15A 120VAC circuit as a 15A 240VAC circuit.

3) connect into a 240VAC stove circuit. Several ways to do this.

4) use the suggested converter panel to get 15A 240VAC from 2 15A 120VAC receptacles that are wired on opposite phases.

Using one of these methods should cover 80% of the situations where a brewer needs 240VAC in a kitchen.

 

[augiedoggy]

The point I was making wasn't about how many breakers were installed.
The OP's original service panel was an older, 100 amp device. Should the wire from the pole/transformer be replaced when upgrading from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp? Of course that depends on what is actually there and how old it is. That's why the power company and an inspector should be involved when increasing the load you are putting on the existing w....

Yes that's what I thought I clarified in the last sentence you quoted... Does the service line match the main breaker..

 

[madscientist451]

None of this stuff was old. The house was built in 2008. The builder did a poor job of specing the service.

The overhead line feed is the same for 100A and 200A services in our area. The conductors from the garage panel to the overhead line are good for 200A. But the meter is only rated for 100A. We'll update that in the near future. Technically we are in violation. Practically I'm not worried about it. The biggest issue with running the wrong meter is that it doesn't measure accurately outside its nameplate rating, ie 100A in this case.




Nice FUD attack. Fear, Uncertainty and Doubt. Did you do any research prior to posting that ? Can you point to any cases where this has actually occurred or is it folklore ?

How big of a wiring mistake do you think it would take to cause a fire or cause someone to be killed or injured ?

Never hear of a FUD attack. But I wasn't making an attack, just providing an opinion.
Nope, I didn't do any research, but since you asked, here's some information about home fires including those caused by electrical problems.

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-resear...lectrical-and-consumer-electronics/electrical

The statistics listed show 60% of electrical fires are caused by wiring and distribution problems. It doesn't specify entrance wiring problems so who knows if any were caused by that? Its probably rare, but it could happen.
So how much research did you do? What kind of entrance wire do you currently have? Copper? Aluminum? Copper clad aluminum? And exactly what size is it?
The new services I've installed required an inspection and a signature before they would turn the power back on. Sure contractors cut corners, but that doesn't make it right.
Hopefully, your inspector will sign off on your service panel and you can get the meter changed and everything will be great.
But is wishful thinking really the best process when it comes to electricity and people's safety?
And how big a mistake does it take to get killed by electricity? There's no way to answer that. A buddy at work had his whole house burn down when a small fan malfunctioned. It happened when they were home asleep and barely got out there and couldn't save anything. OK thats an appliance problem not a wiring issue, but it shows that sometimes sh*t happens. Another acquaintance was electrocuted when the microwave truck he was operating came in contact with a live wire and the circuit grounded through him. It was a gruesome sight and a very bad day for me.
Hey, do what you think is best, but trying to save a some money doesn't always work out in the long run, especially when it comes to safety issues.

 

[brewman !]

Never hear of a FUD attack. But I wasn't making an attack, just providing an opinion.
Nope, I didn't do any research, but since you asked, here's some information about home fires including those caused by electrical problems.

http://www.nfpa.org/news-and-resear...lectrical-and-consumer-electronics/electrical

The statistics listed show 60% of electrical fires are caused by wiring and distribution problems. It doesn't specify entrance wiring problems so who knows if any were caused by that? Its probably rare, but it could happen.
So how much research did you do? What kind of entrance wire do you currently have? Copper? Aluminum? Copper clad aluminum? And exactly what size is it?
The new services I've installed required an inspection and a signature before they would turn the power back on. Sure contractors cut corners, but that doesn't make it right.
Hopefully, your inspector will sign off on your service panel and you can get the meter changed and everything will be great.
But is wishful thinking really the best process when it comes to electricity and people's safety?
And how big a mistake does it take to get killed by electricity? There's no way to answer that. A buddy at work had his whole house burn down when a small fan malfunctioned. It happened when they were home asleep and barely got out there and couldn't save anything. OK thats an appliance problem not a wiring issue, but it shows that sometimes sh*t happens. Another acquaintance was electrocuted when the microwave truck he was operating came in contact with a live wire and the circuit grounded through him. It was a gruesome sight and a very bad day for me.
Hey, do what you think is best, but trying to save a some money doesn't always work out in the long run, especially when it comes to safety issues.

You win ! Don't do any wiring in your house.

 

[itsnotrequired]

No worry there. A white conductor is easily converted to ungrounded status simply by wrapping a little black or red tape around it at each end. But here he isn't in a box at all. He is just plugging into a couple of outlets and running to a box with a breaker and 240 V outlet in it. Probably won't get UL approval but who cares?



No, it won't. There is NO neutral current in those outlets to balance the phase currents and a GFCI will trip. The outlets he plugs into cannot be GFCI outlets.

i should have clarified on wrapping the white conductor, that only applies if part of a cable assembly (e.g. romex). not allowed for individual conductors (i.e. conduit installation) and that marking would need to be done at the panel and at the box for the receptacle to meet code.

my point about the gfci receptacles is that many folks brew in a kitchen, those receptacles could not be used for this application.

 

[itsnotrequired]

It will trip GFCI circuits. Not all circuits in a kitchen are required to be GFCI. Only those in proximity to water.

not per current code (or going back many revision cycles). any receptacle at a countertop surface in a kitchen needs gfci protection, regardless if it is near a source of water. that's been a requirement for at least 20 years.

 

[madscientist451]

You win ! Don't do any wiring in your house.

Doing wiring repairs or up grades isn't the same as putting in a new service panel
Sounds like you don't know what the size or material of the wire that's going from the pole to the meter? You probably have to break the seal and open up the meter base to see what's actually there. I'm guessing you didn't do that or the power company would have busted you by now.
How about from the meter base to your service panel? If the original builder was trying to be cheap and install a 100 amp panel, is there a chance the wire from the meter base to the panel isn't the right size for a 200 amp load? I'd say its at least a possibility.
You might want to at least look into it.....but then again, maybe nothing will ever happen.

 

[brewman !]

Doing wiring repairs or up grades isn't the same as putting in a new service panel
Sounds like you don't know what the size or material of the wire that's going from the pole to the meter? You probably have to break the seal and open up the meter base to see what's actually there. I'm guessing you didn't do that or the power company would have busted you by now.
How about from the meter base to your service panel? If the original builder was trying to be cheap and install a 100 amp panel, is there a chance the wire from the meter base to the panel isn't the right size for a 200 amp load? I'd say its at least a possibility.
You might want to at least look into it.....but then again, maybe nothing will ever happen.

From post #32 in this thread.

The overhead line feed is the same for 100A and 200A services in our area. The conductors from the garage panel to the overhead line are good for 200A. But the meter is only rated for 100A. We'll update that in the near future. Technically we are in violation. Practically I'm not worried about it. The biggest issue with running the wrong meter is that it doesn't measure accurately outside its nameplate rating, ie 100A in this case.

If they'll give me an Internet connection from jail, I'll let you guys know when my garage burns down. After I get out of the hospital, of course and after I get back from applying for bankruptcy at the courthouse.

Next topic: UL certification for your heatsticks !

 

[beermanpete]

Why are you encouraging people to do dangerous things? What you propose in your original post and the drawings added later is dangerous and indefensible. Stop! Just stop.

 

[augiedoggy]

Next topic: UL certification for your heatsticks !

lol hey Im dealing with this now... Looking at opening a brewery and it seems the chinese made elements are not UL listed (except the ones ebrew supply sells even though Im 99% sure I found the company who makes the ones he sells and according to them they are not ul listed so..) Kal did say that many manufacturers he spoke to offered to put fake certification stickers on them so who knows..
It appears that it also can depend on how much you bribe, Em I mean work with local inspectors... a system I'm not unfamiliar with from a previous job as a maintenance man.. Or how lenient they choose to be to enforce their local codes.

 

[BrunDog]

Why are you encouraging people to do dangerous things? What you propose in your original post and the drawings added later is dangerous and indefensible. Stop! Just stop.

Exactly this!

This is a thread that should be censored!

 

[augiedoggy]

Exactly this!

This is a thread that should be censored!

I dont know about censoring... Its really up to the individual to be smart enough to read all the information himself and make up his or her own mind... *Disclaimer* I'm all for Darwinism though...

On the flip side, I'm still waiting for the 18g speaker wire I'm using for 24v DC on a 1 amp load to my pumps bust into flames because its not certified for power use as many here insisted it would 4 years ago....So I guess im a hypocrite for thinking many of the suggestions presented here are not wise although I'll admit I didnt bother to read some of the explanations behind all of the shortcuts taken.

 

[BrunDog]

I honestly believe that anyone modifying the wiring in their home has a responsibility to do it according to code, and have it inspected/certified. If you want to do some crazy temporary sh!t at your own Darwinistic risk, that's cool by me. Sure, split receptacles or other whacko ideas... But don't promote electrical hazards... the uninformed may actually believe because it is on the net it might be right.

 

[brewman !]

Why are you encouraging people to do dangerous things? What you propose in your original post and the drawings added later is dangerous and indefensible.

Excuse me ? What is dangerous about any of my suggestions ?

 

[madscientist451]

Well, Anyone who changes from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel without knowing what size or type of wire is required or in place for the service entrance, and then posts comments about how much money they saved doing it without permits or inspections or regard to safety issues, just isn't a reliable source of information. I don't think the OP shouldn't be censored at all. But the fact that the OP refused to answer specific, direct questions and admitted to violating the electrical code, and probably the law, indicates that the information provided in the OP's posts are questionable and should be considered very carefully.

 

[brewman !]

Exactly this!

This is a thread that should be censored!

Is that a NEMA 4x enclosure sitting under your pots ?

Those XLR connector are not certified for anything other than home use.

The 240VAC receptacles you chose are not suitable for wet location. Those are dry location receptacles.

The pumps have no splash shielding on them.

And you have hot kettles sitting on MDF, something that is neither rated for wet locations nor good at elevated temperatures.

 

[brewman !]

Well, Anyone who changes from a 100 amp panel to a 200 amp panel without knowing what size or type of wire is required or in place for the service entrance, and then posts comments about how much money they saved doing it without permits or inspections or regard to safety issues, just isn't a reliable source of information. I don't think the OP shouldn't be censored at all. But the fact that the OP refused to answer specific, direct questions and admitted to violating the electrical code, and probably the law, indicates that the information provided in the OP's posts are questionable and should be considered very carefully.

Wow, buddy. Get your facts straight.