How much water to get to 68 degrees?

[redwing_al]

Hi everyone,
I'm going to be soon faced with a dilemma where I brew.. We are moving and the only brew-space I could use lacks drains and a water source.. That means I need to bring water in and dispose of it somehow..

Anyway, I'm wondering how many gallons of water it takes to bring wort from boil to 68 degrees, considering I could use an ice bath as the source, running through a pre-chiller and using a standard 25' immersion chiller.

This would help me figure out how I'm going to perform this important task...

I'd love to see what you've all done or get your ideas... But how much water do you typically use to get to 68*?

thanks!

 

[Yooper]

Hi everyone,
I'm going to be soon faced with a dilemma where I brew.. We are moving and the only brew-space I could use lacks drains and a water source.. That means I need to bring water in and dispose of it somehow..

Anyway, I'm wondering how many gallons of water it takes to bring wort from boil to 68 degrees, considering I could use an ice bath as the source, running through a pre-chiller and using a standard 25' immersion chiller.

This would help me figure out how I'm going to perform this important task...

I'd love to see what you've all done or get your ideas... But how much water do you typically use to get to 68*?

thanks!

It took me 42 pounds of ice in a container with the copper coil in it, pumping wort through it, to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort, if that helps.

 

[redwing_al]

It took me 42 pounds of ice in a container with the copper coil in it, pumping wort through it, to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort, if that helps.

oh good greif.. I'm in for a challenge I can see.

 

[Stillraining]

Looks like Yoopers got your answer.

But Sounds to me your a prime candidate for no chill brewing.. Just let it sit overnight. Or build a ferm-chamber and bring it down a bit faster...No?

http://brulosophy.com/2015/02/09/a-year-of-no-chill-lessons-from-a-secret-xbmt/

 

[JonM]

Yooper - is that in Texas or Michigan?

 

[redwing_al]

I wonder if I would have better luck with a plate chilling system?

 

[Stillraining]

I wonder if I would have better luck with a plate chilling system?

I added a link to my original post after you posted this...( Ya Im slow) Give it a read and then make your decision.

 

[JonM]

I'm across the lake in WI, and I bet our tap water is about the same temp as yours (about 64°F) I use a plate chiller with great success - just hook up a standard garden hose to the inlet and run a discharge hose to an appropriate location and you're in business. I have no trouble getting to the upper-mid 60s.

 

[Jim311]

You could consider doing partial boils and topping up with near freezing water at the end? Or pursue "no chill" brewing.

 

[jddevinn]

It took me 42 pounds of ice in a container with the copper coil in it, pumping wort through it, to cool 5 gallons of boiling wort, if that helps.

Yooper - is that in Texas or Michigan?

I wonder if I would have better luck with a plate chilling system?

redwing,

The type of heat exchanger that you use will change the RATE at which you can cool the wort but not the energy required to cool it. There may be a slight difference in efficiency and lost energy transfer (cooling coils stuck above the water level extra) but not much. Making a couple assumptions:

To cool wort (assuming it has the same specific heat as water for ease) for 5 gallons from 212°F to 68°F requires 6,000BTU's of energy.

The latent heat to melt each pound of ice is 211 BTU. Assuming that the water will cool within 1°F of the wort the sensible heat to go from 0°F to 67°F for each pound is 67 BTU. Therefore, the MOST heat that is absorbed by each pound of ice is 278 BTU. Requiring a minimum of 28.5 pounds of ice.

This is assuming no heat is lost from the system, no heat is absorbed by the system, and the pump adds no heat to the system. It assumes that no water is added to the ice to begin with (if water is added some energy will be lost but the heat transfer will be faster). It will also take absorbedly long! Yoopers 42#'s seems very reasonable to do this in a reasonable amount of time.

Another option may be to use dry ice in a salt water bath.

Dry ice has a latent heat of Vaporization that is about twice that of the latent heat of ice. Meaning only half the weight would be required for the same effect. If you use the dry ice in a water bath with enough salt is added to the water to keep it from freezing the water will get down to -110°F, allowing you the speed of using a water bath for contact with the chiller without loosing too much energy.

 

[redwing_al]

okay after more research, I'm feeling better about this problem. Here is my solution. I think I'll go with a plate chiller... I'm curious to know which or how many plates one might need once you understand the process I envision...

1 . use a small sump or pond pump to move water in an ice bath through a small pre-chiller and then to a plate chiller

2. Move the water passing through the plate chiller into a bucket with PBW

3. Once wort has been transferred, move the sump into the PBW to circulate until final clean up.

4. Rince Plate chiller in Starsan and soak.


If this is my new process in the new house, what plate chiller do you recommend in order to get my temps to 68F? Keep in mind, I want to use gravity - no pump and I can control the wort flow at the ball valve.

Any suggestions on a PC?

 

[jddevinn]

I'm across the lake in WI, and I bet our tap water is about the same temp as yours (about 64°F) I use a plate chiller with great success - just hook up a standard garden hose to the inlet and run a discharge hose to an appropriate location and you're in business. I have no trouble getting to the upper-mid 60s.

He has no water access or drain where he plans to brew.

Regardless using 64°F degree water to cool 5 gallons from 212°F to 68°F would require ~2000 gallons of cooling water! <wrong see below

 

[jddevinn]

okay after more research, I'm feeling better about this problem. Here is my solution. I think I'll go with a plate chiller... I'm curious to know which or how many plates one might need once you understand the process I envision...

1 . use a small sump or pond pump to move water in an ice bath through a small pre-chiller and then to a plate chiller

2. Move the water passing through the plate chiller into a bucket with PBW

3. Once wort has been transferred, move the sump into the PBW to circulate until final clean up.

4. Rince Plate chiller in Starsan and soak.


If this is my new process in the new house, what plate chiller do you recommend in order to get my temps to 68F? Keep in mind, I want to use gravity - no pump and I can control the wort flow at the ball valve.

Any suggestions on a PC?

The number of plates will not change the energy that will need to be removed from the wort (and therefore the amount of cooling water/ice) only the rate that the energy is removed. If you want to only use the water for one pass you are going to end up using a lot of water. The most efficient way you can do this is an immersion chiller with the ice bucket water pumped directly through the chiller with your pond pump, recirculated until the cooling water reaches 5-10°F above your target then replace with new ice. The sooner you replace the cooling water the faster the cooling will be but the more ice you will use. If moving the ice is an issue substitute for a lower mass of dry ice.

 

[laredo7mm]

He has no water access or drain where he plans to brew.

Regardless using 64°F degree water to cool 5 gallons from 212°F to 68°F would require ~2000 gallons of cooling water!

I would like to see your math on that. The last brew I did was a post boil volume of 6 gallons. My tap water is at about 66°F. I cooled the wort down to about 67° in 20 minutes or so. I really doubt that my flow rate through a 3/8 inch line is 100 gallons a minute. 20 gallons I can believe, but not 2000.

 

[JonM]

He has no water access or drain where he plans to brew.



Regardless using 64°F degree water to cool 5 gallons from 212°F to 68°F would require ~2000 gallons of cooling water!

I took that to mean no convenient access to water/drains. With long enough hoses, no brew area is without a water supply/drain.

 

[jddevinn]

I took that to mean no convenient access to water/drains. With long enough hoses, no brew area is without a water supply/drain.

I really want to upgrade my drain so far I have a sink (on purpose drain) and a mop

 

[Jim311]

I would like to see your math on that. The last brew I did was a post boil volume of 6 gallons. My tap water is at about 66°F. I cooled the wort down to about 67° in 20 minutes or so. I really doubt that my flow rate through a 3/8 inch line is 100 gallons a minute. 20 gallons I can believe, but not 2000.

Yeah unless you're using tubing the size of a garden hose and on full blast at 50 PSI I can't imagine using that much in 20 minutes.

 

[jddevinn]

I would like to see your math on that. The last brew I did was a post boil volume of 6 gallons. My tap water is at about 66°F. I cooled the wort down to about 67° in 20 minutes or so. I really doubt that my flow rate through a 3/8 inch line is 100 gallons a minute. 20 gallons I can believe, but not 2000.

OK, you got me I went and plugged in the numbers to the ice bucket math I made and didn't think about it. The cooling water heat transfer per gallon that I quickly calculated assumed that the cooling water in was 64°F and out was 67°F Obviously when starting cooling it would be 64°F in and almost 212°F out with the out dropping proportional to the wort temp. To correctly calculate this the water flow rate would need to be know and the calc done as an integral or broken into a bunch of small parts.

 

[HopHeavy]

Whew... I thought that was a Common Core math problem.