I've read a lot in John Palmer's book and online about how to determine my pitching rate. I have a couple of batches of beer in which I have pitched two packets of dry yeast, because they had high OG (around 1.064), and Palmer and multiple other sources implied I should do so. I haven't loved the taste of these beers when they are done and was wondering if I really need to pitch so much yeast. Adding to my confusion is the fact when I had a local brew supply shop suggest a recipe for an IPA (which had a high OG), the recipe only called for one packet of dry yeast. I plan on making a batch in a couple weeks which should have an OG of 1.048. Any suggestions?
How much to pitch?
- Thread starter gfranks22
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IMO, 1.064 is not a high OG beer and one pack is enough. The Mrmalty calculator, which many consider to err on the more yeast end, only suggests 1.1 pack. 11 Gram packs.
On pack is plenty for the 1.048 beer.
On the other hand I doubt pitching 2 packs would be the cause of your beer not tasting good, unless you bottled before the yeast settled. Or unless you are really sensitive to the yeast taste.
On pack is plenty for the 1.048 beer.
On the other hand I doubt pitching 2 packs would be the cause of your beer not tasting good, unless you bottled before the yeast settled. Or unless you are really sensitive to the yeast taste.
TheHopfather
Well-Known Member
The yeast companies will tell you that 1 pack of liquid yeast is fine for 5 gallons of 1.048 beer. But really it depends on how old the yeast pack is. Check out a pitching rate calculator and enter your info, it will tell you what you need to do.
http://mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
Mr. Malty is a popular one, it seems a bit more conservative than the others though.
http://mrmalty.com/calc/calc.html
Mr. Malty is a popular one, it seems a bit more conservative than the others though.
Is it the yeast or 50-some other factors that cause you not to love your beer?
I agree that two 11.5 gram packs of yeast in a 1.064 OG beer is surely overkill. But the yeast will all settle out over time. Cold crashing and gelatin fining can speed up that process.
Here are a few of those factors that can determine how your beer comes out and ultimately how it tastes:
- What was the recipe?
- What ingredients did you use?
- Did you re-hydrate your yeast, and how?
- What yeast did you pitch?
- Did you treat your water?
- Did you control the fermentation temps?
- How long did it ferment?
- Did you use a secondary?
- How did you determine your beer was ready to bottle?
- etc. etc.
You should always make a starter with liquid yeast. It proves that:
a) the yeast is viable,
b) ramp up cell count, and
c) save some out to make a starter from for your next brew.
I like the yeast calculators from Brew United/Homebrew Dad or Yeast Calculator
Warning: Do not use John Palmer's recipe for making yeast starters, there's a big error in it!
I don't know if you really wanted answers to these questions, but I thought I'd answer them and hopefully generate more insight into this issue.
[*]What ingredients did you use?
8 lbs Pale DME
11 oz Chocolate Malt
Hops to achieve 18 IBU
23 grams S-04 yeast
[*]Did you re-hydrate your yeast, and how?
No, because there are so many varying opinions on this practice.
[*]What yeast did you pitch?
S-04
[*]Did you treat your water?
No. I live in Lansing, MI. Our tap water tastes very good.
[*]Did you control the fermentation temps?
Fermentation temperature was 66 F.
[*]How long did it ferment?
It fermented for about 2.5 weeks.
[*]Did you use a secondary?
I did not use a secondary.
[*]How did you determine your beer was ready to bottle?
I checked it with a hydrometer. When the gravity level bottomed out for 3 days in a row, I bottled it.
In other news, I tried one of the IPAs I made last night. I don't generally like IPAs. I made this beer as a gift for someone else. I thought it tasted really good. I used one sacket of S-05 in that beer.
[*]What ingredients did you use?
8 lbs Pale DME
11 oz Chocolate Malt
Hops to achieve 18 IBU
23 grams S-04 yeast
[*]Did you re-hydrate your yeast, and how?
No, because there are so many varying opinions on this practice.
[*]What yeast did you pitch?
S-04
[*]Did you treat your water?
No. I live in Lansing, MI. Our tap water tastes very good.
[*]Did you control the fermentation temps?
Fermentation temperature was 66 F.
[*]How long did it ferment?
It fermented for about 2.5 weeks.
[*]Did you use a secondary?
I did not use a secondary.
[*]How did you determine your beer was ready to bottle?
I checked it with a hydrometer. When the gravity level bottomed out for 3 days in a row, I bottled it.
In other news, I tried one of the IPAs I made last night. I don't generally like IPAs. I made this beer as a gift for someone else. I thought it tasted really good. I used one sacket of S-05 in that beer.
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I've added my commentary and suggestions inline for you to consider that may improve your beer and how it tastes.
I don't know if you really wanted answers to these questions, but I thought I'd answer them and hopefully generate more insight into this issue.
[*]What ingredients did you use?
8 lbs Pale DME
Did you boil all the DME for 1 hour? Or split into 2 additions?
Full or partial boil?
11 oz Chocolate Malt
Hops to achieve 18 IBU
23 grams S-04 yeast
[*]Did you re-hydrate your yeast, and how?
No, because there are so many varying opinions on this practice.
I'd rather follow the manufacturers' instructions on re-hydration. A correctly re-hydrated dry yeast has a higher count of viable cells ready to go, than sprinkled dry. Pitching one sachet that way should suffice for a 1.060 beer. A good aeration (or oxygenation) right before pitching can help those cells even more for the long ride, especially in higher gravity beers.
[*]What yeast did you pitch?
S-04
Not everyone likes the flavor of S-04. WY1098 and WLP007 are supposed to be similar strains, but many homebrewers (including myself) have found either to ferment quite a bit cleaner.
[*]Did you treat your water?
No. I live in Lansing, MI. Our tap water tastes very good.
Most municipal water companies add Chlorine or Chloramines to keep the water sanitized during distribution. Those components can form chlorophenols in the boil and elsewhere.
To remove those components you should really treat all your brewing water with 1/4 crushed Campden tablet or a pinch of K-meta per 5 gallons. Just stir it in, that's all it takes.
[*]Did you control the fermentation temps?
Fermentation temperature was 66 F.
That's good!
[*]How long did it ferment?
It fermented for about 2.5 weeks.
Alright!
[*]Did you use a secondary?
I did not use a secondary.
Excellent!
[*]How did you determine your beer was ready to bottle?
I checked it with a hydrometer. When the gravity level bottomed out for 3 days in a row, I bottled it.
Should we read this as "your beer was at or near expected FG?" If so, good, and it should be after 2.5 weeks!
In other news, I tried one of the IPAs I made last night. I don't generally like IPAs. I made this beer as a gift for someone else. I thought it tasted really good. I used one sacket of S-05 in that beer.
You brewed it last night and tasted the wort?
I don't know if you really wanted answers to these questions, but I thought I'd answer them and hopefully generate more insight into this issue.
[*]What ingredients did you use?
8 lbs Pale DME
Did you boil all the DME for 1 hour? Or split into 2 additions?
Full or partial boil?
11 oz Chocolate Malt
Hops to achieve 18 IBU
23 grams S-04 yeast
[*]Did you re-hydrate your yeast, and how?
No, because there are so many varying opinions on this practice.
I'd rather follow the manufacturers' instructions on re-hydration. A correctly re-hydrated dry yeast has a higher count of viable cells ready to go, than sprinkled dry. Pitching one sachet that way should suffice for a 1.060 beer. A good aeration (or oxygenation) right before pitching can help those cells even more for the long ride, especially in higher gravity beers.
[*]What yeast did you pitch?
S-04
Not everyone likes the flavor of S-04. WY1098 and WLP007 are supposed to be similar strains, but many homebrewers (including myself) have found either to ferment quite a bit cleaner.
[*]Did you treat your water?
No. I live in Lansing, MI. Our tap water tastes very good.
Most municipal water companies add Chlorine or Chloramines to keep the water sanitized during distribution. Those components can form chlorophenols in the boil and elsewhere.
To remove those components you should really treat all your brewing water with 1/4 crushed Campden tablet or a pinch of K-meta per 5 gallons. Just stir it in, that's all it takes.
[*]Did you control the fermentation temps?
Fermentation temperature was 66 F.
That's good!
[*]How long did it ferment?
It fermented for about 2.5 weeks.
Alright!
[*]Did you use a secondary?
I did not use a secondary.
Excellent!
[*]How did you determine your beer was ready to bottle?
I checked it with a hydrometer. When the gravity level bottomed out for 3 days in a row, I bottled it.
Should we read this as "your beer was at or near expected FG?" If so, good, and it should be after 2.5 weeks!
In other news, I tried one of the IPAs I made last night. I don't generally like IPAs. I made this beer as a gift for someone else. I thought it tasted really good. I used one sacket of S-05 in that beer.
You brewed it last night and tasted the wort?
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I used 2.5 gallons of water during the boil. I boiled half the DME at the beginning of the boil. I boiled it for an hour while doing hop additions. I added the other half of the DME at knockout.
I will treat my water next time around.
In regards to the IPA, I brewed it several weeks ago. It's been in bottles for about a week and a half. Sorry, I know that sentence in my previous post was confusing.
I will treat my water next time around.
In regards to the IPA, I brewed it several weeks ago. It's been in bottles for about a week and a half. Sorry, I know that sentence in my previous post was confusing.
I have checked out the Mr. Malty pitching rate calculator. It says I need 1.63 liters of starter for 5.25 gallons of 1.050 gravity wort. The only thing I question is 1.63 liters of what? The slurry which settles at the bottom? The entire starter wort and yeast concoction?
I prefer using one of the 2 yeast calculators I mentioned in a previous post, they're much clearer. MrMalty is great for estimating when pitching from a slurry.
You need to make 1.6 liters of starter wort @1.040, and pitch your yeast pack into that. Put on a stir plate if you have one, for maximum growth. Without a stir plate, using intermittent shaking, you may need a larger starter volume. Those calcs will tell you exactly what you need.
You should add one drop of Fermcap-S to your starter when boiling. It prevents excessive foaming and boil overs. If you don't have a stir plate, it also curbs blow off, where you stand to lose half your yeast to the counter, overnight.
When the starter is done, 24-48 hours, sometimes longer, put in the fridge to cold crash. The beer on top should become clear after a day, 2 days, or even longer, depending on the flocculation of the strain. On brewday, pour off most of the clear beer, leaving a little behind to swirl it up. Let come to pitching temps, if it isn't already, and pitch the slurry.
You could make a slightly larger starter and save out some of that slurry to make a new starter from for your next batch, etc.
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I just typed your numbers into BrewUnited's yeast calc.
For 5.25 gallons of 1.050 wort you need 185 billion cells, right?
You're manually shaking, yes?
Is the packaging date on the yeast pack 3/21/2017?
If so, you need 1.63 liters of starter to get to 185 billion cells.
Is this all correct?
For 5.25 gallons of 1.050 wort you need 185 billion cells, right?
You're manually shaking, yes?
Is the packaging date on the yeast pack 3/21/2017?
If so, you need 1.63 liters of starter to get to 185 billion cells.
Is this all correct?
JONNYROTTEN
Well-Known Member
Welcome to the hardest part of brewing...Figuring out why your beer doesn't taste like you think it should and correcting the issue....
2 packs of yeast was not your problem for off flavors.
04 yeast is a great yeast and I use it a lot.
You mentioned you fermented at 66. Didn't see if that was a controlled temp or ambient? 04 is a beast. It takes off hard and fast. I could see that yeast rising 5 degs or more if not controlled. Many say they get unpleasant fruitiness if fermented to warm. Over 65 seems to be the general consensus.
Describe the off flavor..
2 packs of yeast was not your problem for off flavors.
04 yeast is a great yeast and I use it a lot.
You mentioned you fermented at 66. Didn't see if that was a controlled temp or ambient? 04 is a beast. It takes off hard and fast. I could see that yeast rising 5 degs or more if not controlled. Many say they get unpleasant fruitiness if fermented to warm. Over 65 seems to be the general consensus.
Describe the off flavor..
I've been questioning dry yeast pitching rates a lot recently. I've got lots of experience brewing good beer with a single pack of US-05 per batch but is that really ideal? I used to believe the story that there are 200-220 billion cells in that packet but the manufactuer claims about 70 billion. Now maybe he is just saying at least 6 billion cells per gram but knows there are really 20 billion cells per gram...but it is odd that his competitor Notty only claims to have 5 billion cells per gram which makes me think this number is maybe more precise than homebrewers have been assuming.
Safale recommends pitching at 50-80 grams/100 liters. This would be 60-96 billion cells per 5 gallon (20 liter) batch. That to me is quite similar to white labs and wyeast claims that their 100 billion cell count packages (with cell count declining pretty fast with age) are enough yeast to brew a 5 gallon batch. The calculate above shows clearly this is just not true if you believe it is important to reach probrewer cell density of 0.75 million cells per ml per degree plato.
In fact if you decide you want to hit probrewer cell density with US-05 in a 1.080 wort it looks like you need 274 billion cells. This is 4 packets of dry yeast. Now I have never heard of a homebrewer doing that but I have heard plenty of times about homebrewers building up probrewer cell count levels with liquid yeast...why are we obsessed with probrewer pitching rates of liquid yeast but just shrug when it comes to dry yeast?
Safale recommends pitching at 50-80 grams/100 liters. This would be 60-96 billion cells per 5 gallon (20 liter) batch. That to me is quite similar to white labs and wyeast claims that their 100 billion cell count packages (with cell count declining pretty fast with age) are enough yeast to brew a 5 gallon batch. The calculate above shows clearly this is just not true if you believe it is important to reach probrewer cell density of 0.75 million cells per ml per degree plato.
In fact if you decide you want to hit probrewer cell density with US-05 in a 1.080 wort it looks like you need 274 billion cells. This is 4 packets of dry yeast. Now I have never heard of a homebrewer doing that but I have heard plenty of times about homebrewers building up probrewer cell count levels with liquid yeast...why are we obsessed with probrewer pitching rates of liquid yeast but just shrug when it comes to dry yeast?
I don't have any of the items for my next recipe yet. I am just trying to plan and prepare, therefore I do not know a packaging date or anything.
I will be manually shaking.
My next questions are:
Does 1.63L represent the amount of water I need for the wort, or does it represent the water + the DME I use in it?
I will be manually shaking.
My next questions are:
Does 1.63L represent the amount of water I need for the wort, or does it represent the water + the DME I use in it?
applescrap
Be the ball!
This is good stuff, thanks. There is a really good john palmer podcast about this.
I don't know how to explain the off flavor. It's somewhat tangy. My wife has actually compared it to garlic. It's weird.
I have another inclination as to what could have caused it (other than yeast) based on something else I have read, but I will keep my mouth shut for now to see if someone else comes up with that theory first.
I have another inclination as to what could have caused it (other than yeast) based on something else I have read, but I will keep my mouth shut for now to see if someone else comes up with that theory first.
1.63 liter represents the amount of starter wort. 1.6 liter of water + 178 grams of DME. As a rule of thumb you could use 1 part DME to 10 parts water (by weight). In your case, 160 grams of DME in 1.6 liter (1600ml = 1600gr) water, which comes out to a gravity of 1.037, which is fine too, or even recommended.
All yeast projections are estimates. There is at least 10-20% error involved, either way, possibly more depending on packaging of the yeast, storage conditions, etc.
There's no need to work in 2 decimals (1.63 liter). 1.6 liter is fine enough.
If your yeast is older than the 1 month example given, you will need a larger starter to build more cells to end up at your target pitch of 185 billion cells. Most LHBS' yeast is 2-3 months old on average. The packaging or manufacturing date is stamped on the package.
If you're serious about brewing and using liquid starters, you really should invest in a stir plate, or build one. Lots of examples and instructables around. $10-15 in parts + some handiness.
I'm again pointing to using a drop of Fermcap-S to prevent blow off.
Boil your starter wort in a stainless pot and let cool with a tight fitting lid on it. When cool, pour into your 2 liter flask or other well-sanitized container, such as a clear glass growler or gallon "carboy."
Before you dive in , please inform yourself and read up on making starters. Plenty of information around, although some may be incorrect. You'll see.
@gfranks22
BTW, what yeast are you planning to use in that next brew?
I assumed you were looking to use a liquid yeast, but now the topic has gone back to dry yeast apparently.
Now US-05 is similar to WLP001 or WY1056 or ... many others.
S-04 is similar to WLP007 or WY1098, and others, give or take. There's little point using liquid yeast and making starters for those.
BTW, what yeast are you planning to use in that next brew?
I assumed you were looking to use a liquid yeast, but now the topic has gone back to dry yeast apparently.
Now US-05 is similar to WLP001 or WY1056 or ... many others.
S-04 is similar to WLP007 or WY1098, and others, give or take. There's little point using liquid yeast and making starters for those.
If you can find it and share a link I'd be interested to listen
I was thinking the same thing. A quick search including Podcast Palmer and Yeast got me Beer Smith episode 100 and 148 I think.
applescrap
Be the ball!
Yep its one of those i think.
Under poor conditions (like room temperature or above) yeast count will fall quickly. Not so when refrigerated. http://www.woodlandbrew.com/2012/12/refrigeration-effects-on-yeast-viability.html
Yeast needs oxygen in the wort to increase cell counts. There may not be enough oxygen in the pro brewers wort to make it happen of they just want to pitch enough that increasing cell count isn't important to them. By pitching all the yeast necessary for complete fermentation you eliminate or greatly shorten the lag time. In a pro brewers world, the cost of extra yeast may be considered pretty minor compared to the 24 to 36 hour lag time I seem to get. I'm not a pro brewer. I don't care if I have to wait an extra 24 to 36 hours.
Getting the optimum amount of yeast pitched is a wonderful goal but in reality it will be difficult to tell the difference between a slightly under pitched, optimally pitched, or slightly over pitched beer. It also may be difficult to tell in the resulting beer whether the cell count was increased by making a starter or if it happened after it was pitched. For instance, Gordon Strong says that he often pitches just a single smack pack into his 5 gallon batch of lager. (you can look it up) Mr. Malty would say you need at least a 2 liter starter for that. Why such a difference?
I'd like to listen to that. Do you have a link?
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