How Much Oatmeal is too Much in a Stout?

[maltoftheearth]

I am looking to make an oatmeal stout and am curious as to the highest percent of oatmeal in the total grain bill used by HBT folks.

 

[sethlovex]

I've read that the oats should be kept to less than 20% of the total grain bill, but at the higher end will result in a chewier beer and is difficult to mash with. This months BYO magazine has two great articles on brewing with oatmeal, one for basics and a recipe for oatmeal stout from Jamil himself. Pm me if your interested I will scan it and send to you.

 

[sethlovex]

I received a request for Jamil's oatmeal stout in this months BYO. Not sure if this is bad form to post it but I'll let the mods decide and delete.

5 gal batch
8.5# Maris otter
14.1 oz flaked oats
10.6 oz Victory malt
10.6 oz chocolate malt
7.1 oz roasted barley
7.1 oz crystal (85 L)
1.5oz 5% AA kent goldings @ 60 min
WL 002 or Wyeast 1968

Toast oats at 300
Mash at 154
Mash out with 168
Sparge with 170
Collect preboil 5.9 gallons at OG 1.046
60 min boil
Irish moss at 15 minutes to go
Pitch and ferment at 68
Carb to 2-2.5 V CO2

Not sure why you need moss for a stout, who cares if its clear?
I won't argue with Jamil though....anyway Looks delicious, can't wait to brew.
Unfortunately I have a choclate stout almost ready to keg so it will be a while before I get to this. Also I wanted to do a milk stout. There is a great left hand clone thread on HBT

 

[SpeedYellow]

Wow, 7-8% oats barely seems to deserve being called an oatmeal stout. Could you really get any use from that little? I just made a 1.105 imperial oat stout and did 14% oat, and was concerned that might even be too little. Only time will tell.

 

[TheHairyHop]

The stout I made that is currently carbonating has 15% of the bill as oatmeal. The samples that I've had have been pretty good!

 

[sethlovex]

I think 15% is probably a good number. Interestingly the article said oats provide very little oatmeal flavor, this is actually provided by the victory malt.

 

[sethlovex]

Wow, 7-8% oats barely seems to deserve being called an oatmeal stout. Could you really get any use from that little? I just made a 1.105 imperial oat stout and did 14% oat, and was concerned that might even be too little. Only time will tell.

Wow sounds awesome did you do a huge starter or double pitch?

 

[SpeedYellow]

Wow sounds awesome did you do a huge starter or double pitch?

I just made a big starter. The beer was inspired by Southern Tier's Oat, which is quite nice.

 

[maltoftheearth]

I think 15% is probably a good number. Interestingly the article said oats provide very little oatmeal flavor, this is actually provided by the victory malt.

That is interesting. So I guess the oats are mainly there for the mouthfeel, hunh?

Thanks for the recipe from BYO, I have to smile when I see ingredients listed to the tenth decimal (e.g. "14.1".) That seems way too precise for me, I am struggling to stay in the ballpark with my gravity and bittering numbers and people are measuring to the tenth decimal. I have a long way to go.

Thanks for the advice re: percentages of grain bill for oats.

 

[sethlovex]

That is interesting. So I guess the oats are mainly there for the mouthfeel, hunh?

Thanks for the recipe from BYO, I have to smile when I see ingredients listed to the tenth decimal (e.g. "14.1".) That seems way too precise for me, I am struggling to stay in the ballpark with my gravity and bittering numbers and people are measuring to the tenth decimal. I have a long way to go.

Thanks for the advice re: percentages of grain bill for oats.

From what I gather.


No prob. You know, I thought the same thing and was considering rounding but I'm not gonna mess with Jamils recipe. If I brew it will definitely be rounding it off!

No problem!

 

[BrewerinBR]

I use 2lbs of toasted oatmeal in my Oatmeal stout ... 14%.

Its good, creamy and smooth good head with long retention... roasty and toasty one my most popular brews

 

[jflongo]

I did 9% in mine. Haven't really tried it yet, it's still aging.

 

[chuckstout]

I believe the reasons you see 14.1oz or the like is the original batch was probably larger and it is used to make correct percentages to tje grain bill, or in the original recipe hes using metric

 

[StMarcos]

I like 20%. No toast, but I need rice hulls with my system. I find it takes this amount to really get the 'silky mouthfeel' that is often mentioned when describing OM stouts.

 

[sethlovex]

So I'm not he only one thinking about beer at 5 am

 

[Big-R]

The stout I made that is currently carbonating has 15% of the bill as oatmeal. The samples that I've had have been pretty good!

I know I'm a few years late to this thread, but do you think 15% is a good number after you actually brewed it?

 

[Comfort_Zone]

I've gone just above 30% and it was great. I'm doing the whole BIAB thing though so no stuck sparge for me.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Scott Janish states that the threshold below which it is unlikely to perceive the silky creaminess of oatmeal is 18% by weight of the grist. The science behind this is the observation of B. Schnitzenbaumer that below a threshold of 800 mg/L the beta-glucan concentration is insufficient to contribute to a perceptible change in wort viscosity, and that it takes at least 18% oats in the grist to hit this bare minimum level of beta-glucan. If this observation is correct, then any addition of less than 18% oats is merely a waste of time.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Historically oat stouts were more or less a marketing ruse by big brewers, who threw tiny amounts (<3%, often <1%) in their partigyles to allow them to bottle their stout with two labels, ordinary stout and oatmeal stout. The Barclay Perkins stout of 1928 is typical.

They were cashing in on the popularity of the oatmalt stout from Maclay of Alloa, which did have reasonable amounts of oatmalt - 13% in 1909 and up to double that in later versions. Rose & Co of Grimsby had pioneered the style with oatmeal a few years before Maclay, but lost a patent battle and seem to have faded from the scene.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I know I'm a few years late to this thread, but do you think 15% is a good number after you actually brewed it?

considering people put 20% oats in pale ales and IPAs these days, feel free to go nuts

 

[kevin58]

Historically oat stouts were more or less a marketing ruse by big brewers, who threw tiny amounts (<3%, often <1%) in their partigyles to allow them to bottle their stout with two labels, ordinary stout and oatmeal stout. The Barclay Perkins stout of 1928 is typical.

They were cashing in on the popularity of the oatmalt stout from Maclay of Alloa, which did have reasonable amounts of oatmalt - 13% in 1909 and up to double that in later versions. Rose & Co of Grimsby had pioneered the style with oatmeal a few years before Maclay, but lost a patent battle and seem to have faded from the scene.

According to a news paper report on the patent case it seems the judge upheld the Rose & Wilson patent as having come first before Alloa...

"BREWER'S PATENT CASE.
LOCAL FIRM OPPOSES CASE.
The application of Mr A. Fraser, brewer, of Alloa, Lanarkshire, Scotland, for a patent for oatmalt or oatmeal stout, was opposed by Messrs Rose and Wilson, brewers, of Grimsby and Hull, on the ground of its having been previously patented by them, was heard at the Royal Patent Office Courts, London, on Wednesday, the 16th of October. Mr Douglas appeared for the applicant, and Mr Goodeve, patent barrister (instructed by John E. Walsh, patent agent, Halifax, Leeds, and Hull) for the opponents. The Comptroller-General gave his decision yesterday as follows:- That Messrs Fraser's claim for malted oats is anticipated by Messrs Rose and Wilson's prior patent, consequently that claim must be struck out; and the other claim for a combination of materials with malted oats, only allowed conditionally that a special reference is made to Messrs Rose and Wilson's patent, who are the first patentees and users of malted oats for brewing purposes."
Hull Daily Mail - Friday 01 November 1895, page 4.

 

[opercularia]

They were cashing in on the popularity of the oatmalt stout from Maclay of Alloa, which did have reasonable amounts of oatmalt - 13% in 1909 and up to double that in later versions.

Does anyone have any idea why Beersmith recommends a max of 30% for flaked oats, but only 10% for malted oats?

 

[TheHairyHop]

I pay attention to beersmith's recommendations about as often as I listen to my drunk uncle at Thanksgiving

 

[Queequeg]

18% before you get any appreciable difference.

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

last brew had 20% and its very silky and smooth, I also used a 1kg of wheat malt which counter-acted the effects on head retetention.

 

[opercularia]

I pay attention to beersmith's recommendations about as often as I listen to my drunk uncle at Thanksgiving

Never used Beersmith myself, but I've also never used oat malt, so I went on the web to find out more about it. That came up and I just thought it was a head scratcher.

 

[Miraculix]

Oats provide certain fatty acids which are very beneficial for yeast health and which are lacking in barley (malt). I did some tests, pure mo malt against 20 or 30% (don't remeber out of my head) flaked oats and 70% mo malt. Same yeast and same water and same everything else. The oat version went nuts way quicker than the mo smash and was done considerably faster.

There was no flavour contribution from the oats. People want to taste oatmeal in their oat beers, so they taste it.... I guess it is just placebo.

 

[Queequeg]

It does effect mouthfeel though.

 

[Miraculix]

It does effect mouthfeel though.

Also not as much as people think it does. I could not detect a difference in mouthfeel. Wheat does a way better job in this case.

It is also baked up by the linked articles above that there is no increase in mouthfeel below 18% weight of the grist. I could not detect anything in my 20 or 30% test batch.

 

[opercularia]

http://scottjanish.com/case-brewing-oats/

Wow, good read. Will have to save to read again and digest. I was going to do my standard stout this week with 30% flaked oats to see the difference. May have to redo the recipe with some wheat malt as well.

 

[TheHairyHop]

Also not as much as people think it does. I could not detect a difference in mouthfeel. Wheat does a way better job in this case.

It is also baked up by the linked articles above that there is no increase in mouthfeel below 18% weight of the grist. I could not detect anything in my 20 or 30% test batch.

nah, very hard disagree. I made a 20% oat pale ale and the slick mouthfeel was astonishing. Beta glucans making it into the final product isn't just a product of grist percent. I do think that it's a misconception that oats provide a fluffy mouthfeel however.

 

[TheHairyHop]

I should elaborate that I've made that same malt bill numerous times, and the oat slickness occurred in maybe 25% of them. It was my standard for single hop IPAs, so I'm very familiar with it. A couple of the beers had the slickness age out but not all of them

 

[Miraculix]

I should elaborate that I've made that same malt bill numerous times, and the oat slickness occurred in maybe 25% of them. It was my standard for single hop IPAs, so I'm very familiar with it. A couple of the beers had the slickness age out but not all of them

Maybe that is the reason for my different experiences with oats. Maybe some oats have more beta glucan? Or maybe some off the yeasts just chop it up?

 

[Northern_Brewer]

According to a news paper report on the patent case it seems the judge upheld the Rose & Wilson patent as having come first before Alloa...

It was one of those cases where Rose won the argument, but the judge created a massive loophole which meant that Maclay were able to carry on as before. Maclay were only prevented from brewing 100% oatmalt beers (which they didn't want to do, but you make the patent claim for the 100% case and then broaden it), but they were still allowed to brew mixed oat/barley beers. If Rose's patent had been watertight, then they would have been able to stop Maclay doing that.

It gives some interesting context to Mackeson's ruthless enforcement of milk stout patents a few years later.