How much longer primary if omitting secondary?

[richl025]

Greetings, all!

I currently have Northern Brewer's Caribou Slobber in my fermenter. I've read quite a few threads here that suggest it's usually quite acceptable to NOT rack to a secondary, and that concerns about the beer sitting on the yeast cake, autolysis, etc etc are not too important for small batch brewers...

The kit instructions call for 1-2 weeks in primary and 2-4 in secondary. Since I am remaining entirely in the primary, do I just shoot for 3-6 weeks total?

I'm at 3 weeks now, and the bucket has been sitting in a room that is always 70-74 degrees. Visible bubbling in the airlock stopped after the first week. (Opaque bucket fermenter so I don't quite know what the krausen looks like...) Is there any added value to checking a SG?

Thanks to all for the great advice with previous questions!

 

[Yooper]

I generally leave most beers in the fermenter for 2 weeks or so. If it's done, and clear (or clearing), it's ready to bottle.

 

[pm5k00]

If you used enough yeast and fermented at proper temperature you should be ready to keg/bottle. You only really need extra time for off flavors to settle if something in your process needs improvement.

Some people will tell you higher gravity beers and complex grain bills need more time to age. I find this to be true sometimes, but depends on alot of variables.

 

[BigFloyd]

I'll bet that it's done and ready to bottle. If you're not done at 3 weeks, something went badly wrong.

Next time, try getting your ferment temps lower (like mid-60's beer temp) for better flavor. 70-74*F ambient is much too warm for the S-04 that comes with that kit.

 

[richl025]

Thanks for the replies,

Next time, try getting your ferment temps lower (like mid-60's beer temp) for better flavor. 70-74*F ambient is much too warm for the S-04 that comes with that kit.

Ughh. Well, in retrospect, I didn't have much of a choice. It was either my unheated garage (which got down into the 40s during an uncharacteristic cold snap we had) or that room it went into.

I've seen many people recommend temperature control as one of the easy ways to improve quality, and maybe after I move this summer I'll look for a cheap chest freezer & temp controller...

Big Floyd, is that what you use in Texas?

What kind of off-flavors might I expect from fermenting a bit too warm? I actually didn't use S-04, N.B. was out of it when I ordered, so I used White Labs Pacific Ale which I think has a similar temp range (65-68)...

 

[m3n00b]

You can set the fermenter in a tub or an ice chest filled with water and use frozen water bottles to chill (room)or a cheap aquarium heater to warm.(garage). Temperature control really is the most important thing for good beer... after sanitation

 

[Shred]

The higher fermentation temp will probably result in a more estery beer. Your end result might be better if you fermented within the suggested temp range, but I'm sure you didn't ruin it. RDWHAHB

 

[BigFloyd]

Big Floyd, is that what you use in Texas?

I have a used fridge I found on Craigslist and put together a dual-control outlet box using an STC-1000 controller (about $20 on Amazon).

What kind of off-flavors might I expect from fermenting a bit too warm? I actually didn't use S-04, N.B. was out of it when I ordered, so I used White Labs Pacific Ale which I think has a similar temp range (65-68)...

With an ambient temp of 70-74*F, your beer may have possibly gotten as high as 80-82*F. That's pretty sure to have produced a fair amount of fruity esters as well as other unwanted flavors, maybe even some fusels. If it doesn't taste good at 3 weeks in the bottles, box it up and put it in a closet for a few months, brew something else and then try it again. Time can help mellow some (but not all) of the off-flavors.

One practice that will help avoid the higher temps during the crucial first few days of fermentation is to chill the wort to 3-4 degrees below the low end of the optimal range for the yeast strain being used. If you don't have a fermenter chamber, put it in a tub of water and swap out frozen water bottles as needed. Not as precise as an STC-1000, but it beats the heck out of nothing.

 

[richl025]

Oh, um, possibly stupid question here....

If the recommended yeast range is 65-68, and the fermentor can get 10 degrees warmer due to the yeast working merrily, that means the ambient temperature needs to be in the upper 50s for yeast to be happy?

I'm thinking of jury-rigging either a swamp cooler or an insulated jacket (with ice packs) for my next batch - should I shoot for a temperature on the outside of the carboy to be on the LOW end of the recommended range?

 

[BigFloyd]

Oh, um, possibly stupid question here....

If the recommended yeast range is 65-68, and the fermentor can get 10 degrees warmer due to the yeast working merrily, that means the ambient temperature needs to be in the upper 50s for yeast to be happy?

I'm thinking of jury-rigging either a swamp cooler or an insulated jacket (with ice packs) for my next batch - should I shoot for a temperature on the outside of the carboy to be on the LOW end of the recommended range?

Nope, that's a good question (and important to get a handle on).

Yes, the ferment can get 7-10*F warmer than the ambient air during peak activity. That is often a result of pitching too warm.

If you pitch into wort that's a few degrees below the low end of the yeast range (say, 62*F for a 65-68 yeast) and keep it around 64-65*F the first few crucial days when it's most active, the warmth difference may only be 2-3*F.

After the activity slows down, it's actually good to let it warm up slowly over a few days so that it finishes toward the upper end of the optimal range.

 

[kombat]

If the recommended yeast range is 65-68, and the fermentor can get 10 degrees warmer due to the yeast working merrily, that means the ambient temperature needs to be in the upper 50s for yeast to be happy?

Yes.

Kind of.

Well, it's complicated. Fermentation is an exothermic reaction, meaning it produces heat. So when fermentation is vigorously rolling, the beer temperature can be up to 10° F higher than the surrounding ambient air.

But it's not quite that simple. The more vigorous the fermentation, the bigger the temperature differential. And if you keep the temperature in the lower end of the range, then fermentation won't get quite so vigorous, and won't produce nearly as big a temperature differential.

What I'm saying is, if your ambient temperature is 50° F, then the beer will start out at 50° F too. That's too cold for most ale yeast, so it probably won't ferment at all, and the beer will just stay at 50° F the whole time.

But if you raised the ambient temperature to 60° F, now the yeast can get a bit of a "foothold" and start fermenting. Still pretty slowly, but enough to maybe raise the beer temperature by 3-4° F such that it's fermenting at around 64° F.

If you start at 65° F, the yeast will get going and warm the beer up to 70° F, at which point they REALLY get going, which will push the temperature up a little more into the mid-70's, resulting in undesireable esters and fusel alcohols. Until it finishes up, at which point it cools all the way back down to ambient temperature (65° F).

I guess what I'm trying to say is that it's a delicate balancing act. You have to have the beer warm enough for the yeast to get started, but then keep it cool while the fermentation gets going, to keep it under control and prevent it from getting to energetic. But you don't want to make it TOO cold so that the yeast falls asleep and stops working, either.

Just monitor your wort temperature, and aim to keep it in the low-60's throughout the entire fermentation. That might mean starting the wort out in the mid-60's to start, then adding ice to the water bath as fermentation kicks off to keep it under control, then tapering off the ice toward the end of fermentation as the heat generated by fermentation diminishes back down.

 

[richl025]

Thanks for the replies you two, you've given me some good guidance for my next batch...

Kombat, I have a pretty good grounding in biology, so your explanation makes perfect sense to me....

 

[Shred]

For what it's worth, I use 63F ambient as my starting point for most ales and adjust as needed.

 

[richl025]

Well, some follow-up on the issue of my too-warm fermentation temperature of the Caribou Slobber:

I bottled this evening, and sampled a bit. Let's just say that I'm hoping for some _serious_ magic to happen over the next few weeks of bottle conditioning. The flavors I tasted tonight were quite off-putting.... Kind of like rotten fruit maybe?

I know, I know, RDWHAHB..... I'm looking forward to trying some in 2 weeks, but I think this was a "lesson learned" for batch number 2....

 

[Poiman]

Not to be too pessimistic, but the one beer that i have ever brewed that was horrible was the Caribou Slobber clone that I fermented at about 75 degrees. It tasted of bad bananas and I hoped that by letting it condition in the keg things would get better...this one did not. I use that beer for boiling brats.
Positive side of that whole thing, it caused me to find a fridge on craigslist and build a fermentation chamber.

 

[richl025]

Not to be too pessimistic, but the one beer that i have ever brewed that was horrible was the Caribou Slobber clone that I fermented at about 75 degrees. It tasted of bad bananas and I hoped that by letting it condition in the keg things would get better...this one did not. I use that beer for boiling brats.
Positive side of that whole thing, it caused me to find a fridge on craigslist and build a fermentation chamber.

That is almost exactly where I am at! I'll give it a couple of weeks in the bottle though...

It worked OK for brats, though???

 

[ram5ey]

Yeah I've had some mediocre beers make some fantastic brats!

 

[ScottG58]

It's green and has no carbonation. What it tastes like now is not what it's going to taste like. Give it three weeks in the bottle. It will likely get better.

 

[Poiman]

That is almost exactly where I am at! I'll give it a couple of weeks in the bottle though...

It worked OK for brats, though???

Yes, it makes great brats! Only have about 3 1/2 more gallons to go before the keg is gone.