Brewers Association also has a beer style guideline that may be of interest.A good place to start would be to compare the 2015 BJCP descriptions of an American IPA (21A), vs. American Pale Ale (18B).
You won't get a clear answer. I have heard some people say that Pale Ales should not be dry hopped, but I dry hop most of my Pale Ales. I have made some beers with a good amount of hops that I call a Pale Ale, but mostly because they are in the 5% ABV range. I have a beer fermenting now that got 8.6 oz of homegrown hops into the kettle. It will not be dry hopped, but I will call it an IPA because it should be in the 6.5% to 7% ABV range. Zombie Dust is sold as a Pale Ale, but at 6.2% and heavily hopped, it would clearly be an IPA in my book. Some say IBUs determine the style, but plenty of IPAs are made these days with 40 or less IBUs.
I guess in my view, ABV is the biggest factor.
The lines are blurred. Style labels only matter if you're entering it in a comp. If you brew it and you like it, that's all that matters.
The blog "Shut up about Barclay Perkins" is an interesting read on the history of British beers.19th century- how much hops
Adj was added for the trip to India?
A Venn diagram of IPAs vs APAs have a good bit of overlap. And then there are these "session IPAs" that seem suspiciously like dry-hopped APAs to me.
The lines are blurred. Style labels only matter if you're entering it in a comp. If you brew it and you like it, that's all that matters.
Thanks - will read - lam interested in “ beer history “The blog "Shut up about Barclay Perkins" is an interesting read on the history of British beers.
Very good info-and it is information that helps me better understand the pale ale vs IPA - realizing there is no absolute definition of pale ale vs IPA- thanks for your detailed inputI certainly wouldn't consider dry hopping to be a defining characteristic that demarcates whether a beer is an IPA or PA.
Dry hopping is a technique whereas IPA and PA are styles. It's kinda like asking "What kind of engine is needed to generally have a car be considered a sports car?" Inline engines, V-engines, horizontally opposed engines, Wankel engines, there's all kinds of engines in cars that are generally accepted as being sports cars.
Writing from the US, and as a native of the West Coast that has spent 20 years on the East Coast, I agree with eric19312's assertion that the grist is more likely to be the defining characteristic. In my brewery, my US pale ales tend to be have more modest OGs and they emphasize a bit of medium C-malt (usually C40) and a bit more flavor from the base malt (typically pale malt rather than straight 2-row). The overall effect is to create a beer that is within the realm of "balanced," but unambiguously hop forward.
By contrast, my US IPAs tend to have a more generous OG (north of 1.060) and a much simpler, dryer, grist that leaves a clear pathway for the hops to take center stage. These beers tend to discard any notion of balance and are assertively hop forward.
As a technique, dry hopping can be used in either of those recipes.
Anyway, that's what I think and it only actually matters in my brewery. What you decide is, ultimately, the best answer for you.
Opinions on IPA vs Pale ale w/r to Hops
That reminds me of still having to brew a classic IPA. I think Nottingham plus Brett would be ok? 1.055 og and 40-50 ibus bittering additions with Golding's? What do you think?An India Pale Ale should only use Goldings, but for a pale ale then Fuggles would also be acceptable.
Or at least, that would be the late-19th century view in Britain. But it gets complicated - in the 20th century the distinction essentially disappeared.
See, it kinda depends on history and geography - and now we have USians making India Pale Ales that never go to India, are black and made with lager yeasts. So the name is becoming pretty meaningless.
But if you want to go back to the beginning, in 1821 Andrew Ure was saying " It is well known that other things being equal, the liquor keeps in proportion to the quantity of hops. Fresh beer may have from a pound to a pound and a half to a barrel of 32 [imperial] gallons, June beer two pounds and a half, beer for the month of August three pounds and for a second summer three and an half. For India voyages, four pounds."
That 4lb/imperial barrel is the equivalent of 8.3 oz in 5 US gallons.
And a later edition of Ure explains that brewers are forced to go as high as a gravity of 1.055 for tax reasons (between 1830-1880) although they would rather brew weaker : "This impolitic interference with the operations of trade compels the manufacturer of bitter beer to employ wort of a much greater density than he otherwise would do; for beer made from wort of the specific gravity 1042 is not only better calculated to resist secondary fermentation and the other effects of a hot climate, but is also more pleasant and salubrious to the consumer."
So "classic" IPAs were typically 1.055-1.060, although high attenuation took them to 6-6.5% ABV. And by the standards of the time they were weaker than the average beer. And by the 1950s many IPAs were in the low 1.030s.
That reminds me of still having to brew a classic IPA. I think Nottingham plus Brett would be ok? 1.055 og and 40-50 ibus bittering additions with Golding's? What do you think?
Chevallier is a pain to get here in Germany atm. Since brexit, they want obviously import tax. Last time they charged me 49 euros for 60 quid worth of brewing supplies, majority was malt. It was obviously falsely calculated but I still never got my money back. German Zoll....Works for me, better still with Chevalier - although whilst we're on the subject, Wyeast have just released 9097 Brett/Sacc Old Ale blend as a Q4 Private release. I'd probably go with Brett claussenii if you have the choice.
Anyway, I will try it again. The barley wine I made with the last delivery is exceptionally good now. Aged for over half a year now.Works for me, better still with Chevalier - although whilst we're on the subject, Wyeast have just released 9097 Brett/Sacc Old Ale blend as a Q4 Private release. I'd probably go with Brett claussenii if you have the choice.
I haven't tried mine yet, but this should avoid extortionate import and shipping. They'll do it by the kg, too, if you want to sample.Chevallier is a pain to get here in Germany atm. Since brexit, they want obviously import tax. Last time they charged me 49 euros for 60 quid worth of brewing supplies, majority was malt. It was obviously falsely calculated but I still never got my money back. German Zoll....
With 5kg of whole UK Goldings let's just say I 'went to f*cking town' following a claimed traditional IPA hopping rate. And let's just say that 'it's still bloody maturing' after 12 months. I'll give another 12 month, but my patients might be wearing a bit thin by then. Well, I'm not made of kegs!An India Pale Ale should only use Goldings, but for a pale ale then Fuggles would also be acceptable.
Or at least, that would be the late-19th century view in Britain. But it gets complicated - in the 20th century the distinction essentially disappeared.
See, it kinda depends on history and geography - and now we have USians making India Pale Ales that never go to India, are black and made with lager yeasts. So the name is becoming pretty meaningless.
But if you want to go back to the beginning, in 1821 Andrew Ure was saying " It is well known that other things being equal, the liquor keeps in proportion to the quantity of hops. Fresh beer may have from a pound to a pound and a half to a barrel of 32 [imperial] gallons, June beer two pounds and a half, beer for the month of August three pounds and for a second summer three and an half. For India voyages, four pounds."
That 4lb/imperial barrel is the equivalent of 8.3 oz in 5 US gallons.
And a later edition of Ure explains that brewers are forced to go as high as a gravity of 1.055 for tax reasons (between 1830-1880) although they would rather brew weaker : "This impolitic interference with the operations of trade compels the manufacturer of bitter beer to employ wort of a much greater density than he otherwise would do; for beer made from wort of the specific gravity 1042 is not only better calculated to resist secondary fermentation and the other effects of a hot climate, but is also more pleasant and salubrious to the consumer."
So "classic" IPAs were typically 1.055-1.060, although high attenuation took them to 6-6.5% ABV. And by the standards of the time they were weaker than the average beer. And by the 1950s many IPAs were in the low 1.030s.
Sweet, thanks.I haven't tried mine yet, but this should avoid extortionate import and shipping. They'll do it by the kg, too, if you want to sample.
If you're buying then I'd be tempted to just try the 9097 since it's not normally available and it saves you the cost of buying two separate yeasts - I assume the Sacc isn't anything too weird.
Otherwise - yep, anything fairly mainstream British.
One thing to consider that certainly works with dark beers is to blend Bretted and "new" non-Bretted beer 1:2.
You won't get a clear answer. I have heard some people say that Pale Ales should not be dry hopped, but I dry hop most of my Pale Ales. I have made some beers with a good amount of hops that I call a Pale Ale, but mostly because they are in the 5% ABV range. I have a beer fermenting now that got 8.6 oz of homegrown hops into the kettle. It will not be dry hopped, but I will call it an IPA because it should be in the 6.5% to 7% ABV range. Zombie Dust is sold as a Pale Ale, but at 6.2% and heavily hopped, it would clearly be an IPA in my book. Some say IBUs determine the style, but plenty of IPAs are made these days with 40 or less IBUs.
I guess in my view, ABV is the biggest factor.
• Original Gravity (°Plato) 1.044-1.050 (11-12.4 °Plato)
• Apparent Extract/Final Gravity (°Plato) 1.008-1.014 (2.1-3.6 °Plato)
• Alcohol by Weight (Volume) 3.5%-4.3% (4.4%-5.4%)
• Hop Bitterness (IBU) 30-50
• Color SRM (EBC) 4-7 (8-14 EBC)
I do not like that they say that it produces sourness over time. I am not a fan of tart beer (unless it is a sour of course). That´s why I liked the description of the claussenii more. Also, it was originaly cultured from the type of beer i want to brew. But these beer must have had multiple bretts inside obviously.
Thanks mate, I will have a look on that. Finally a good reason to buy a second speidelMTF suggest that the Brett component of 9097 Old Ale is Wyeast's 5526 Brux "lambicus", and the Sacc is from Thomas Hardy but I've got no other source for that. The cherry pie description would fit 5526.
My vague understanding is that claussenii is probably the best fit, these beers didn't have hit-you-over-the-head horse blanket character.
Quick Google for "Crisp Chevallier €" throws up a couple of options. I would have thought Geterbrewed are probably your best bet as they take advantage of the leakiness of the Irish border.
I just got into a debate last night with SWMBO
She was less than satisfied
Abv - that does make a lot of sense - high Abv with moderate amount of hops - IPA - back in the original IPA days - 19th century- how much hops
Adj was added for the trip to India?
Does anyone know of a freely available list of recipes that target the "mid-point" (or "mid-points") of common styles?
If such a list does exist, it would be a good way learn more about styles "by example and sampling".
For those willing spend a few dollars on a book, Simple Homebrewing (chapter 7: Simple Recipe Design) has a number of recipe templates for various styles.
Thanks. I'm aware of Brewing Classic Styles (it's not free).Jamil's Brewing Classic Styles is a good starting point. Otherwise, look at some of his recipes that are available online.
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