How many times should one re-circulate the wort?

[TasunkaWitko]

First, I will say that I am happy with the over-all method; I'm just looking for non-complicated ways that might get the most out of it.

I make 1-gallon batches. At the end of the mash, I mash-out to 170 degrees, I then dump the mash into a mesh strainer over a lauter run set-up, and pour it over with 170-degree water. I then re-circulate the wort through the grains. I am sure that there is a name for this type of sparging, as it is surely a fairly-universal thing.

Once again, the method works for me and suits my situation, but I'd appreciate advice on how to get the most from that method. Currently, I try to re-circulate three times (four pouring through the grains, total), or at least two times. If the wort gets "stuck," I try to gently reach into it with a spoon and move it around enough to let the wort through, but not disturb the grains too much.

My questions are:

How many times should I be re-circulating the wort? I am sure that as the wort loses its 170-degree temperature, there might be some diminishing returns.

Should I let the wort go through the mash/grains naturally, or give it a little stir if/when it gets stuck. This happens quite a bit with wheat beers, of course, but it happens to an extent with any brew.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance -

Ron

 

[d3track]

Are you using a mesh bag or literally dumping the grains into the strainer?

If right into the strainer, are you getting grain into your kettle?

If not, don't worry about recirculating/vaurlof - go ahead and sparge

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, D3, and thanks for the reply.

I am going straight from the mash pot (an enameled cast-iron Dutch oven that maintains heat very well) to the trainer. It is a fairly fine-meshed strainer, but not an actual fine-mesh strainer, so that the wort can run through but the grains do not. It looks exactly like this:

No grains end up in the boil pot, but finely-ground "malt dust" can, of course, and end up as trub. This is why I try to stir as little as possible during the sparge, to let the grains act as a natural filter.

Anyway, instructions say to re-circulate at least once, but some other editions of the instructions say to re-circulate 2 or 3 times, and that's where the confusion comes in.

 

[doug293cz]

First, I will say that I am happy with the over-all method; I'm just looking for non-complicated ways that might get the most out of it.

I make 1-gallon batches. At the end of the mash, I mash-out to 170 degrees, I then dump the mash into a mesh strainer over a lauter run set-up, and pour it over with 170-degree water. I then re-circulate the wort through the grains. I am sure that there is a name for this type of sparging, as it is surely a fairly-universal thing.

Once again, the method works for me and suits my situation, but I'd appreciate advice on how to get the most from that method. Currently, I try to re-circulate three times (four pouring through the grains, total), or at least two times. If the wort gets "stuck," I try to gently reach into it with a spoon and move it around enough to let the wort through, but not disturb the grains too much.

My questions are:

How many times should I be re-circulating the wort? I am sure that as the wort loses its 170-degree temperature, there might be some diminishing returns.

Should I let the wort go through the mash/grains naturally, or give it a little stir if/when it gets stuck. This happens quite a bit with wheat beers, of course, but it happens to an extent with any brew.

Any advice or suggestions would be appreciated.

Thanks in advance -

Ron

It sounds like you are not doing any sort of standard sparging. You don't want to mix initial run-off wort and sparged wort and then recirculate thru the grain. It will reduce your efficiency. Sparging is adding water to the grains after the initial run-off in order rinse out the sugar left after the initial run-off. Running all the wort back thru the grains will not extract any additional sugars, so will not improve your efficiency. And since you are lautering thru a strainer, the customary pre run-off recirculation (aka vorlauf) will be of minimal benefit.

In a traditional MLT, you can use the grain bed to filter the wort prior to boiling. To do this, you want to "set" the grain bed by recirculating a portion of the wort back thru the grain bed until the wort being drained is clear, and then stop recirculating and run off the wort into the boil kettle. This recirculation (vorlauf) makes sure that the filter characteristics of the grain bed are optimized, and prevents the initial run-off from containing particulates from the mash (which, as you have found out, isn't all that important.)

For your system you should probably just skip the recirculation and do the following:

1. Raise temperature for mash out (this is actually optional)
2. Stir the mash well to insure uniform sugar concentration throughout the mash
3. Pour the mash thru the strainer into the boil kettle
4. Dump the grains from the strainer back into the mash pot
5. Add your sparge water to the mash pot and stir for several minutes
6. Pour the sparged mash thru the strainer into the BK

Alternatively, you could leave the grains in the strainer after the initial mash pour, and then pour the sparge water over the grains in the strainer. However, this will not be as efficient as the full batch sparge described above.

Brew on

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, Doug, and thanks for the reply.

I'm not sure if my method is "standard" or not, but it is the one outlined in the instructions that I've used since I started making beer. Here is a visual that might explain it better:

http://youtu.be/md_2Y8UvkbU

It has always worked, and has always produced beer that I've been very happy with.

I'll read your post more in-depth when I get home from work, and see if there is anything that I can incorporate into what I am currently doing.

Thanks again ~

 

[FortMillBrew]

For your system you should probably just skip the recirculation and do the following:

1. Raise temperature for mash out (this is actually optional)
2. Stir the mash well to insure uniform sugar concentration throughout the mash
3. Pour the mash thru the strainer into the boil kettle
4. Dump the grains from the strainer back into the mash pot
5. Add your sparge water to the mash pot and stir for several minutes
6. Pour the sparged mash thru the strainer into the BK

Alternatively, you could leave the grains in the strainer after the initial mash pour, and then pour the sparge water over the grains in the strainer. However, this will not be as efficient as the full batch sparge described above.

Brew on

^+1

Don't make it harder than it needs to be. You should only take steps in brewing that benefit your final product or provide you the brewer with unimaginable amusement. I can't imagine this unnecessary (IMHO) recirculation is doing either.

:rockin:

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I'm not sure if it is unnecessary or not - but it is what my instructions tell me to do, and the over-all process makes sense. The reason I say this is because I have noticed is that the first couple of times I run the hot wort through the grains, they seem pretty "starchy" or "sticky," kind of (but not really) like oatmeal. By the time I run the worth through the third time, the grains seem completely "washed out" and free from any sugars. What's left behind is spent grain that seems like it has had all of the starches (or whatever) wrung out of it.

My main concern is that the temperature of the liquid is surely lower on the 3rd circulation than it was on the first, and I don't know if that is a problem or not.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Just for the heck of it, I tweeted this inquiry to Brooklyn Brew Shop, who makes the mixes that I use and produced the video that I posted above.

I asked if there is an "optimum" number of times to circulate the wort through the grains; here is their reply (emphasis mine):

We sparge 2-3x. Taste the grain after the 2x, if it's still sweet go for a 3rd, if it tastes like cardboard you're done.

The section that I put in bold is the clue that I needed, which gives an indication of when the process has run its course. Now that I know what to look for, I'll see if I can incorporate steps from d3's post above in order get it done with as little temperature loss as possible.

Thanks to all for the input and advice - I hope that this provides some help for other BBS brewers!

 

[doug293cz]

Just for the heck of it, I tweeted this inquiry to Brooklyn Brew Shop, who makes the mixes that I use and produced the video that I posted above.

I asked if there is an "optimum" number of times to circulate the wort through the grains; here is their reply (emphasis mine):

We sparge 2-3x. Taste the grain after the 2x, if it's still sweet go for a 3rd, if it tastes like cardboard you're done.

The section that I put in bold is the clue that I needed, which gives an indication of when the process has run its course. Now that I know what to look for, I'll see if I can incorporate steps from d3's post above in order get it done with as little temperature loss as possible.

Thanks to all for the input and advice - I hope that this provides some help for other BBS brewers!

Apparently the folks at BBS don't know what sparging is. Pouring wort back thru the mashed grain is NOT sparging. Sparging is adding fresh water to the grain. The process recommended by BBS is equivalent to a full volume, no-sparge process as far as lautering is concerned, but without the benefit of a thin mash as far as conversion rate is concerned. You would be better off just adding both the recommended mash water volume and sparge water volume to the original mash (would have to start at about 156°F instead of 160°F to account for the heat capacity of the extra water), and then just straining the mash into the boil kettle. No useless recirculation steps required.

Edit: Pouring the wort back thru the grain is no different than just stirring the wort and grain together as far as extracting sugar is concerned. And, stirring is more likely to get you to equilibrium than a few recirculation cycles. Might as well just start with all the liquid in the grain and stir. It's fewer process steps.

If you would like, I can give the long explanation of why what I have said above is correct.

Brew on

 

[acidrain]

[ame]https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XhO7CVlzJE[/ame]
Watch this vid... he sparged once.
Pouring your sweet wort back through your grains after you just rinsed them is (politically incorrect term for mentally challenged).

Edit: skip to the 6 minute mark.

 

[doug293cz]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XhO7CVlzJE
Watch this vid... he sparged once.
Pouring your sweet wort back through your grains after you just rinsed them is (politically incorrect term for mentally challenged).

Edit: skip to the 6 minute mark.

Yeah, this guy (apparently not associated with BBS) didn't follow the "official BBS video" recommendation to recirc all the wort thru the grain after the actual sparge (which undoes most of the sparge benefit.) So, he knows more about what he's doing than the folks who sold the kit.

Brew on

 

[Gavin C]

He carried out one sparge. One.

Can't imagine doing a small batch this way. Seems so needlessly complex when such simpler alternatives exist but to each their own.

 

[Yooper]

Pouring your wort back through the grain actually would reduce the efficiency, by having the sugars in the wort "stick" to the grain.

If you want to sparge, pour water over the grain (water, not wort!), up to your boil volume. That's it! It's really that easy.

Rinsing the grain until you get "cardboard" flavor is oversparging. You're not likely to do that without using any water, but if you do use water and do an actual sparge, don't oversparge by diluting it that much. Figure at most two quarts of water per pound of grain in a sparge, or much less if you only go up to your boil volume.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Alright, I've got some ideas, now ~

Thanks for taking the time to explain!

 

[TasunkaWitko]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_XhO7CVlzJE
Watch this vid... he sparged once.

Edit: skip to the 6 minute mark.

Question: He also covered his pot during the mash - I was under the impression that's not a good idea?

 

[Gavin C]

It is a good idea. It keeps the heat in.

Lid off for the boil not the mash.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Awesome, thanks Gavin.

I was getting fairly good temp control before, using an enameled cast-iron Dutch oven. But covering the mash will help even more.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

You would be better off just adding both the recommended mash water volume and sparge water volume to the original mash (would have to start at about 156°F instead of 160°F to account for the heat capacity of the extra water), and then just straining the mash into the boil kettle. No useless recirculation steps required.

Doug - If I read you right, my mash kettle (a 6-quart enameled cast iron Dutch oven that hold heat very well) is a little small to do the mash with the entire gallon along in there with it.

As an alternative, would this work? -

- Do the mash as normal

- Heat a gallon of water up to 170 so that it's ready by the end of the mash

- Pour that gallon of water in with the mash

- Pour that all through the strainer into the boil kettle

- Do not recirculate

If I'm missing anything, please let me know.

Also, can you give me an idea (ballpark) of the efficiency of this method, compared to what I have been doing here (from the beginning up to time mark 47 seconds):

[ame]https://vimeo.com/11354805[/ame]

Thanks much - it is appreciated -

Ron

 

[TasunkaWitko]

For your system you should probably just skip the recirculation and do the following:

1. Raise temperature for mash out (this is actually optional)
2. Stir the mash well to insure uniform sugar concentration throughout the mash
3. Pour the mash thru the strainer into the boil kettle
4. Dump the grains from the strainer back into the mash pot
5. Add your sparge water to the mash pot and stir for several minutes
6. Pour the sparged mash thru the strainer into the BK

Alternatively, you could leave the grains in the strainer after the initial mash pour, and then pour the sparge water over the grains in the strainer. However, this will not be as efficient as the full batch sparge described above.

Brew on

Whoops -I was reading up the thread backwards - I see that you covered this with your quoted post above. Please disregard my question above about the procedure, but I would still appreciate a guess on the efficiency comparison.

Thanks!

 

[m00ps]

42.

42 times

 

[TasunkaWitko]

I think I can squeeze in a 43rd, if I do it JUST RIGHT ~~~

 

[kh54s10]

In the videos posted they never poured wort back through the grains.

As to the suggestion to taste the wort until it tastes like cardboard, this would not work if pouring the wort through the grains. If anything it would taste more sugary since you should be rinsing more sugars out of the grain and concentrating it in the wort. The suggestion is for tasting the sparge when using water. As Yooper said: do not over sparge...

Sparge with water. Once with this system. I do twice but that is only to be more accurate in getting to my preboil volume in a 3 vessel system.

Also since this is a quick sparge to the boil kettle there is no real reason to do a mashout. That is more a process necessary when doing fly sparging with a 3 vessel system.

 

[m00ps]

I think I can squeeze in a 43rd, if I do it JUST RIGHT ~~~

If you let it go to 43, youll miss the Answer to the Ultimate Question of Life, The Universe, and Everything.

 

[Gavin C]

..

Ron

For 1 gallon batch size I think you will have a much neater simpler and more consistent result via BIAB. Mash with as much water as your pot will allow, You can place the pot in the oven on warm setting for the duration and you will see very stable temps. End of mash, pull the bag squeeze the carp out of it, place it over the pot on a strainer and do a small pour over sparge till you hit your desired pre-boil volume.

Very easy, very reproducible. You can crush a lot finer so will get greater efficiency allowing bigger beers to be made on your setup. (No mill needed. Use a blender or coffee grinder)

For 1 gallon batches BIAB is by far and away the best approach. Just my 2c. A 10 quart pot would be ideal but you could get away with an 8 quart. Either should fit in your oven with ease.

Required investment. $5 for pack of two 5 gallon paint-strainer bags (use both doubled up to minimize particulate) and a 10 quart pot if you don't already have one.

This allows brewing with 1 pot not 3. Stove-top and oven can be used. Granted I am a fan of BIAB but see the merits to 2 or 3 vessel brewing. It's just that for small batches a simpler setup seems more applicable. Disclaimer IMO

 

[doug293cz]

Whoops -I was reading up the thread backwards - I see that you covered this with your quoted post above. Please disregard my question above about the procedure, but I would still appreciate a guess on the efficiency comparison.

Thanks!

I need a little more information to do efficiency comparisons. What is your:

• Total grain weight?
• Total volume of brewing water?
• Target pre-boil volume?

Brew on

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, guys, and thanks -

Doug, I don't have exact numbers, but if I understand the terms (brewing water and pre-boil volume) correctly:

The grain weight is usually right around 2 pounds, sometimes it will be a little more, but for I assume a formula can factor that in.

I am assuming that the total volume of brewing water is the water used for the mash plus the sparge. If this is the case, it would be 2 quarts for the mash and a gallon for the sparge, for a total of 1.5 gallons.

The pre-boil volume is expected to be 1.25 gallons, as instructions state that 20% of the wort will be lost to evaporation during the boil.

Hope this helps, and thank you -

Ron

 

[Gavin C]

Hi, guys, and thanks -

Doug, I don't have exact numbers, but if I understand the terms (brewing water and pre-boil volume) correctly:

The grain weight is usually right around 2 pounds, sometimes it will be a little more, but for I assume a formula can factor that in.

I am assuming that the total volume of brewing water is the water used for the mash plus the sparge. If this is the case, it would be 2 quarts for the mash and a gallon for the sparge, for a total of 1.5 gallons.

The pre-boil volume is expected to be 1.25 gallons, as instructions state that 20% of the wort will be lost to evaporation during the boil.

Hope this helps, and thank you -

Ron

That 20% is often typical for a 5 gallon batch. the instructions are likely blanket instructions for all their kits. Copy and paste to the 1 gallon kit instructions. I would estimate for at least 0.75 gallons of boil-off for a 1 gallon batch.

Easy to test. Collect 1.5 gallons of water in a pot. Place lid, bring to boil, take lid off and boil for 20 mins. Let it cool to room temp and measure how much water is left.

Boil off is this volume x3

You could of course boil for longer or shorter and work it out another way. Obviously the longer the boil the more accurate the data.

 

[TasunkaWitko]

Hi, Gavin -

BBS instructions are online in pdf format, which is one thing I like about them. Here is a typical example:

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/directions/Brooklyn_Brew_Shop_Bruxelles_Blonde_Instructions.pdf

Thanks ~

Ron

 

[Gavin C]

Hi, Gavin -

BBS instructions are online in pdf format, which is one thing I like about them. Here is a typical example:

http://brooklynbrewshop.com/directions/Brooklyn_Brew_Shop_Bruxelles_Blonde_Instructions.pdf

Thanks ~

Ron

Those a very clear instructions but not ones I would follow.

The boil-off test is very simple and will give you an actual value not a guesstimate. 20% is far too small an estimate.

My stove boils off 1 gallon in an hour boil. if i am making smaller batches I would still get a 1 gallon boil off. it is largely a constant value when brewing indoors with the same pot on the same stove at the same power level.

If I were doing a 1 gallon batch i would certainly target a ~2 gallon pre-boil. Volume. I'm going to lose volume to boil-off, hop absorption, a gravity sample and 4% shrinkage when the wort cools from boiling to pitching temperatures .

1.2 gallons you will absolutely need to top up with water. this is not a disaster my any means but if you can avoid it it is a good plan.

 

[TonyKZ1]

Thanks for the info guys, I'm also doing some All grain 1G batches and this discussions has been very helpful, especially with the Brooklyn Brew Show instructions. I'll probably do the BIAB from now on, or at least the two pot method rather than the way I had understood the BBS instructions.