How Many Packages Saflager35/70 for 2.5 gallons? Am I using Brewfather correctly?

[NSMikeD]

I usually brew 2.5 gallon ales with dry yeast with no issues. This week I brewed a Mexican Dark Lager (Negra Modelo clone) with Saflager 34/70 at 55°. The OG was 1.052. I never gave much thought to pitching a single 11.5g packet rehydrated to my brews even though I knew it was likely overpitched. I alway assumed those packets were made for 5 gallon average ABV beers.

So this weekend, it was late and instead of rehydrating, I pitched the 34/70 straight to the cooled wort thinking It was more than enough. It looks active and I had to release the spundling value twice to ease back the pressure under 4 psi. I am not looking to really pressure ferment, just didn't want to hook up a blow off tube.

I've been thinking about trying out liquid yeast for a change of pace, and so today I played with the Brewfather yeast tool. So to test drive and learn the tool I plugged in my Negra Modelo Clone. Holy smokes, if I am suing it correctly, it's saying I way under pitched:

An I understanding this correctly that for a 2.5 gallon 1.052 lager that I should have picked 18g (1.5 packaged) of non-rehydrated dry Saflager 34/70 to target 183 billion cels? Can this mean that for a standard 5 gal batch, you would need 3 envelops of the stuff?

 

[day_trippr]

Well...Fermentis advertises an 11.5 gram packet of W-34/70 as having a minimum of 6 billion cells per gram, so all they're signing up for is 69 billion cells per packet. Your 2.5 gallon batch of 1.052 lager at the "lager" pitch rate of 1.5M cells/ml/°P needs ~180B cells. Without better information to go on your kinda stuck with that basic math.

That said...I have seen many non-Fermentis statements claiming that 6B cells/gram is waaay pessimistic and there could be as many as 200B viable cells in a single 11.5 gram packet....

Cheers!

 

[mac_1103]

Fermentis' website recommends 80 - 100 g/hL, or basically one gram per liter which is actually a bit less than one pack for 2.5 gallons.

Their recommended pitch rate for ale yeasts is 50 - 80 g/hL.

 

[dmtaylor]

One pack without rehydration is plenty for 2.5 gallons of lager. You're fine. Yeast calculators are always overly conservative in my experience.

 

[Basspaleale]

Mr. Taylor is right, I've brewed many great lagers (5 Gal batches) with 1 packet of 34/70. You'll be fine.

 

[NSMikeD]

Can anyone provide me with some insight so I can sleep at night. According to the Brewfather yeast tool, a 5 gallon lager with up to 1.060 OG would need a target of 365 billion cells. General consensus online is that Fermantis 11.5 g dry yeast packets contain 100-200 billion cells. Let's say we hydrate and call it a conservative midpoint of 150billon. And that the default in brewfather.

So a single healthy packet dehydrated is going to give you 150 billion for a target of 365 billion. That's not even in the same ballpark to dismiss as the software being conservative.

What am I missing


fwwi , I am ok not changing what I do with dry yeast, it's that I want to start using some liquid yeast strains that there isn't a dry yeast equivalent and I want to use the software to have some degree of confidence that I am pitching decent volumes of yeast.

 

[NSMikeD]

to add to my above post, Brewfather is telling that if I want to brew a 2.5 gal 1.052 lager that I either need to pitch 1 packets of pure pitch liquid or make a .7 liter starter.

I'm just having a hard time accepting that a fresh packet of liquid yeast isn't in the ball park of sufficient to brew a 2.5 gal 1.052 lager according to the software.

 

[FloppyKnockers]

I just got done counting the cells in a packet of my 34/70 and all 350B cells were accounted for. I almost lost count at the 170Bth cell, but I caught it.

I primarily use dry yeast - 34/70, US05, US04, and whatever the wheat one is. somthing06. I average 1.050 - 1.055. I always do one packet, sprinkled into chilled wort, never a starter, and never a problem. Occasionally, I will do a half batcha and sprinkle a whole sachet in there. Never had I had any side effects of overpitching.

 

[NSMikeD]

I just got done counting the cells in a packet of my 34/70 and all 350B cells were accounted for. I almost lost count at the 170Bth cell, but I caught it.

I primarily use dry yeast - 34/70, US05, US04, and whatever the wheat one is. somthing06. I average 1.050 - 1.055. I always do one packet, sprinkled into chilled wort, never a starter, and never a problem. Occasionally, I will do a half batcha and sprinkle a whole sachet in there. Never had I had any side effects of overpitching.

those are my main three, plus Lallemand Kolsch, Nottingham and a few Belgians I cant recall off hand. I am a big fan of dry yeast. It's that I plan on expanding my brewing to try out some liquid yeast which add a bit more variables that we see in dry yeast, plus lagers appear (base oil yeast calculators) to require a lot more cells in the pitch and I think more off sensitive to pitch rates as it relates to final tastes.

 

[mac_1103]

Most people who post here seem to say that in their experience the manufacturer's recommendations for dry yeast work regardless of what the calculators say. Is the same not true of liquid yeast?

 

[NSMikeD]

Most people who post here seem to say that in their experience the manufacturer's recommendations for dry yeast work regardless of what the calculators say. Is the same not true of liquid yeast?

What bothers me is that the a number of yeast calculators say this can't be true, especially when brewing lagers. Something is amiss. I get the calculators are being conservative, but they are not in the same ballpark. These calculators are sourced by what appears to be well informed and thought out processes and people with credible resumes.

I think brewing with liquid yeast for lagers, generally speaking, are more sensitive to creating flavors due to the lower temperature during termination, and that liquid yeast lose viability much faster than dry yeast. So this while I really don't think twice about pitching dry yeast for ales, my research is leading me to believe that as I expand the types of beer I brew, seeking those where nuances in flavor due to yeast selection and fermentation process will be more apparent that I want to eliminate thus discrepancy and be more precise with my use of yeast.

If I am brewing an American ale or American IPA with lots of hop flavors, I am going to dump a packet of 05 and not think twice.

 

[odie]

I think most packs of yeast, dry or wet, are basically sized for the typical 5 gal batch.

If you are doing 2.5 gal, half a pitch of whatever yeast should be fine.

 

[NSMikeD]

I think most packs of yeast, dry or wet, are basically sized for the typical 5 gal batch.

If you are doing 2.5 gal, half a pitch of whatever yeast should be fine.

I get that. I've been brewing 2.5 gals with one packet for many years now. Since I brew mostly ales that aren't as yeast and pitch rate sensitive, I really don't give any thought to over pitching (or underpitching). I've been posting in threads for some time now on the subject to pitch the whole packet from my own experience that I haven't noticed any difference between pitching a half packet and a whole packet with small brew batches.


However. there are beer styles that do not appear to be that neutral with regard to pitch rate and the nuances of the final taste.


The other thing I would like to clear up is that I don't necessarily agree that a single pack of yeast is sufficient for a lager. By all accounts I can find, yeast pitch rates for lagers are double than that for ales. Then the simple answer that 1 package of yeast for a 5 gallon batch cannot be that certain for lagers.

 

[mac_1103]

I get the calculators are being conservative, but they are not in the same ballpark.

I think it's actually the yeast manufacturers who are being conservative in giving cell counts for their products. The calculators are just calculating. One explanation is that the cell counts are significantly higher than stated, as already suggested. Another is that the dry yeast manufacturers are intentionally telling their customers to underpitch, which seems unlikely. A third is that the people who wrote the calculators are intentionally telling everybody to overpitch, which also seems unlikely. So I'm inclined to go with the first explanation.

Then the simple answer that 1 package of yeast for a 5 gallon batch cannot be that certain for lagers.

Fermentis actually recommends two packages for a 5 gallon batch for lagers. Basically 1 gram per liter for lagers and half a gram per liter for ales.

 

[odie]

I wonder if the lager pitch rate is since lagers are done at lower temps and the yeast works slower? So to minimize lag time you pitch more yeast?

 

[schmurf]

I use Lallemands calculator when using their yeasts, it's a big discrepency between theirs and Brewfathers, and probably other calculators as well. I don't know how much Fermentis' yeast differs from Lallemands but I guess they're pretty similar.

 

[day_trippr]

By all accounts I can find, yeast pitch rates for lagers are double than that for ales. Then the simple answer that 1 package of yeast for a 5 gallon batch cannot be that certain for lagers.

Exactly. But all of the confusion can be traced back to Fermentis: they plainly state an 11.5 gram pack of 34/70 has at least 60-something billion cells, and provide no additional guidance on the topic that one could plug into calculators.

I wonder if the lager pitch rate is since lagers are done at lower temps and the yeast works slower? So to minimize lag time you pitch more yeast?

Yup. And the double-the-ale-pitch-rate thing has been advised for as long as I've been brewing at least

Cheers!

 

[dmtaylor]

According to the Brewfather yeast tool...

What am I missing

Like I said, yeast calculators are known to be overly conservative, particularly when it comes to dry yeast. Throw the yeast tool out the window. Or if you *must* use it, divide its results by 2 to get into a more reasonable ballpark.

 

[Basspaleale]

If you're having trouble sleeping over yeast cell counts, you're getting way too serious. Remember what the grandfather of home brewing, Charlie Papazian always said. "Relax. Don't worry. And have a homebrew."

 

[NSMikeD]

Just trying to understand why the huge discrepancies and make sure I am using the calculations correctly so I know when I need to do something other than rule of thumb guidelines. I understand the notion of being over conservative, but some of teh numbers weren't in the same ballpark and I was hoping if someone could help guide me to a reliable method for using the calculators.

I think one of the issues is trying to know what a good starting cell count is with the producers. Fwiw, I think I am fine with using one rehydrated or not rehydrated dry yeast package for my ales (probably double what I need, but since I usually pitch and ferment ales in about 65° I should get a nice balance of flavors without any concerns. I am also leaning towards hydrating as a rule of thumb since the cells will benefit from this step.

With lagers, they appear to require twice the pitch count and with my 2.5 gallon batches, a single rehydrated dry yeast pack should suffice. And while my dark Mexican lager seems to be doing just fine without rehydrating, I think I'll stick with hydrating lager dry yeast.

As for liquid yeast, it appears that a single fresh lager or ale pack with a solid 2 hours to warm up should be fine.


I think I start getting into no man's land if I brew beers over 1.060 but that's not likely, and for now, I am good with brewing 2.5 gallons.


Thanks everyone for the feed back and hopefully, more posts will help me understand how to use yeast calculators with more degree of confidence.

 

[madscientist451]

Been brewing lagers for many years and don't have a clue how many billion cells I've got. But I am a little more careful with my yeast for lagers. I'll use a whole pack in a 2.5 gallon batch, then pitch the whole slurry from the first batch into the next full size batch, sometimes I'll save some of the original to make a starter if I'm feeling frugal. After that, I'll pitch about half of the slurry into subsequent batches. I've been doing it this way for many years with out any issues. I suppose how many billions of cells is important to some brewers, but for me a visually large, healthy amount of yeast is all I need.

 

[hotbeer]

Just take the advice of the calculators and other things as ensuring you pitch enough yeast.

Don't worry that they may have you over-pitching. Too much yeast is seldom a disaster for home brewing.

 

[NSMikeD]

Just take the advice of the calculators and other things as ensuring you pitch enough yeast.

Don't worry that they may have you over-pitching. Too much yeast is seldom a disaster for home brewing.

I'm not worried about a disaster, my objective is to explore yeast a bit more. I am reconciling my current laissez-faire approach with this notion that is commonly stated in one form or another in a variety of write ups:

"If you over-pitch, or dump in too much yeast, your squadron of cells might over-accomplish its mission, thereby fermenting too fast and stripping the beer of much of its desired character."

and to a lesser extend this

"If you under-pitch, meaning you don't add enough yeast to the cooled wort waiting inside your fermenter, the individual yeast cells may struggle to do more work than they can handle. They can reproduce too many times in order to compensate, which increases the chances of off-flavors."


What I am gathering is that there is a pretty big window and that there isn't really any precision to pitch rates that anyone can say definitively so far.

It would be nice if we could trust the manufacturers that their single packets (dry or lager) are sufficient to brew a 5 gallon of 1.060 or lower beer and go from there. For ales that seems to be the case, I am not sure that's so true for lagers. It may be but the calculators seem to think otherwise.

For now I'll go with single pack or liquid or dry (rehydrated) for my lagers with my 2.5 gallons. I think for ales I'll pay more attention to the style guidelines regarding esters to decide whether or not to pitch a whole packet or a half packet. And start to keep good notes in my brewfather app.

On the good side, I rarely brew something I don't like, even if it wasn't what I was trying to achieve.

 

[hotbeer]

What I am gathering is that there is a pretty big window and that there isn't really any precision to pitch rates that anyone can say definitively so far.

I think that's a fair statement to a certain extent.

And also about the possible taste differences that might be had. Bread and pizza dough I make occasionally have much more flavor when they rise slowly over several days than stuff I make in just a few hours.

That's were keeping good notes about what you do help as sometimes just minor differences in procedures and perhaps amount pitched might give a decidedly different character or taste to basically the same recipe.

Or that's where the artistry of the brewer comes in to play.

 

[NSMikeD]

I think that's a fair statement to a certain extent.

And also about the possible taste differences that might be had. Bread and pizza dough I make occasionally have much more flavor when they rise slowly over several days than stuff I make in just a few hours.

That's were keeping good notes about what you do help as sometimes just minor differences in procedures and perhaps amount pitched might give a decidedly different character or taste to basically the same recipe.

Or that's where the artistry of the brewer comes in to play.

Agree , so true. I'll make my every day bread in 3 hours, and then I'll do a sour dough for a number of days including the overnight in the fridge rise. So I get that.

I'm not done dong my research (and assume I'll never be done), and love all the different ways and variations. I came across a cream ale you tube brew video today and on the topic yeast he mentioned about 5 different yeast and fermentation methods, and on this brew day chose a Lallemand Koln koslch yeast given the hybrid nature of the beer. Was it an ale? Was it a lager?

I could imagine Schrödinger sipping a cream ale looking at his cat and a box and having a quantum physics epiphany.

 

[RM-MN]

Can anyone provide me with some insight so I can sleep at night. According to the Brewfather yeast tool, a 5 gallon lager with up to 1.060 OG would need a target of 365 billion cells. General consensus online is that Fermantis 11.5 g dry yeast packets contain 100-200 billion cells. Let's say we hydrate and call it a conservative midpoint of 150billon. And that the default in brewfather.

So a single healthy packet dehydrated is going to give you 150 billion for a target of 365 billion. That's not even in the same ballpark to dismiss as the software being conservative.

What am I missing


fwwi , I am ok not changing what I do with dry yeast, it's that I want to start using some liquid yeast strains that there isn't a dry yeast equivalent and I want to use the software to have some degree of confidence that I am pitching decent volumes of yeast.

Yeast pitching rates are based off the needs of commercial brewers who have a single fermenter and need to get the beer fermenting quickly so they can empty that fermenter and get another batch started.

Brulosophy did an experiment with under and over pitching. While many here will find faults with his methods, I haven't seen them trying to replicate the experiments. His results were that it was difficult to tell the differences between a severe under pitch and what was considered a massive over pitch. If you create the conditions for yeast to grow in your fermenter and under pitch, it will simply take a bit longer to get the amount of yeast than if you did a "proper pitch". It does assume you have good sanitation so you don't get bacterial growth that gives off flavors before the yeast can take over and prevent bacteria from growing.

 

[sfrisby]

Mike-how about this. Do a taste test.

Brew a batch and if you have the means, split it in half. Throw one packet of yeast in one, pitch a measured amount of properly recommended yeast in the other. Let them roll, package, and do a blind taste test. See if you can tell the difference, and if you can, which did you like more? Then, keep doing that.

Then get some sleep.

 

[Whisky River]

I came across this thread the other day in which @frankvw seems to say that while to the yeast manufacturers estimate cell count in the 5-6 Billion cells per gram range, independent tests have shown that it can be closer to 20 Billion cells. I have no idea if that’s true or not but it might help explain the discrepancy you were seeing.

“Lallemand/Danstar states that 1gram of their dry yeast will contain a minimum of 5 billion live cells, while Fermentis puts it at a minimum of 6 billion cells per gram. In practice, however, these yeasts tend to contain far more live cells than the specified minimum number, and independent cell counts have repeatedly shown these dry yeasts to contain anything between 8 and 18 billion live cells per gram, while more recent data even puts it at around 20 billion cells per gram, most likely as a result of yeast quality improvements in recent years. Current practice (and Mr. Malty) estimates the latter, i.e.20 billion cells per gram.”

https://www.homebrewtalk.com/threads/be-256-dry-fermetis-abbey-has-anyone-used-it-results.670423/

 

[day_trippr]

Yes, that was mentioned a few times earlier and no doubt it's a major contributor to the uncertainty...

Cheers!