How many of you use a yeast starter?

[Beer Viking]

How exactly do I harvest yeast from my primary when fermentation is done so I can pitch it into a future batch? How much needs to be pitched?

 

[eric19312]

How exactly do I harvest yeast from my primary when fermentation is done so I can pitch it into a future batch? How much needs to be pitched?

There are many ways and all have tradeoffs.

When I fermented in buckets, speidel tanks and carboys I would rack the beer to bottling bucket or keg and then swirl up the yeast cake with beer remaining in fermentor and then transfer that to a glass mason jar. With buckets I could transfer with a sanitized soup ladle. With carboys I'd wipe the neck with a paper towel dipped in starsan and pour it. With the speidel I'd just remove the spigot and pour out of the bottom port.

For all of those fermentors I had to accept that I would be getting some non yeast trub and some dry hops (if the beer was dry hopped in primary most of mine are) with my yeast. Some brewers advocate cleaning this yeast and trying to seperate the pure yeast from other junk. I just kept it and let it ride into the next batch.

Now I have a conical fermentor and with this I do collect the yeast before dry hopping. I also discard first slug of yeast assuming this will have most of the non yeast trub and then collect a jar full. I use that within 2 weeks and discard the rest.

How much to use? I am not fan of using the whole cake. Way too much yeast. I calculate the amount in beersmith using the date the yeast was harvested to estimate viability and assuming 2 billion cells per mL on harvest date. When I took the yeast from the buckets and carboys and accepted it had more trub in it I assumed 1 billion cells per mL. With the 2 billion cells per mL estimate a 17.5 gallon batch needs about 500 mL for ale pitch rate of 0.75 mil/mLxPlato. I probably use close to 600 mL eyeballing it.

edited to add: the yeast in the jar separates to yeast layer and beer layer. I decant off 90% of the beer before measuring out the amount of yeast I will pitch.

 

[McKnuckle]

A video really helps. Here's one:

 

[eric19312]

And for OP...no starters for me. When using dry yeast I use as many packs as I need and when using harvested yeast I have all I need from previous batch. I'm not ranching a bunch of different yeast strains, it's all Chico all the time, and I find the harvested yeast, typically 1 week old, generally outperforms the new pitches (less lag and finishes faster). Possibly I am underestimating the amount of yeast per mL of slurry. Since I know I am going to be harvesting the yeast and assume it will be repitched i do oxygenate with pure O2 and add a small amount of yeast nutrient to every batch.

 

[mux11]

I overbuild my starters so that I can save yeast for my next batch, it's a cost saving thing for me.

I am wanting to start doing this. Would love to know your process and suggestions you have. Thanks

 

[Konadog]

I am wanting to start doing this. Would love to know your process and suggestions you have. Thanks

I posted this above, it's as easy as making a starter, but a bit bigger, and pouring off a bit to save.

When my starter is done, turn stir plat off and while the yeast is still in suspension, pour off enough to fill a small jar and refrigerate. The rest is for the batch of beer. This way you always have clean healthy yeast being stored. This is what it looks like once it settles out.View attachment 706045

 

[mattdee1]

Sometimes on brew day I pull some wort from the kettle 10min into the boil and chill it to pitching temperature. Then I mix in my yeast and put it on the stir plate for the rest of the brew day until I’m ready to pitch into the fermentor. Last time I did this I pitched at around 11pm and had a healthy krausen layer visible when I got up the next morning... no more than 8-10 hours later. I never get a lag time anywhere near that short when sprinkling in dry yeast.

 

[BlutoA10C]

2 benefits that I've seen from using yeast starters the last couple years.

1. Save money on buying yeast
2. My initial fermentations are crazy active compared to just adding yeast packet to fermenter.

I'm with Chuckbergman on this one. It does take a little extra planning, but is not complicated and I enjoy the process for some reason.

Cheers!

 

[pondjt]

Timely thread as I’m making a starter right now.

Over the summer, I decided starters were superfluous and I wouldn’t do them anymore. I don’t have any hard data but I wasn’t thrilled with the results. I’m back on the bandwagon.

I agree with the gist of most of the comments. It’s a personal choice. Make a beer with it and without, best one wins.

 

[VikeMan]

IMO, every wort has an ideal pitch rate (cells per ml per degree plato). It may not be an absolute ideal. Brewers get to to decide what the ideal pitch rate is for their beer. But once you decide that, whether or not you need a starter, and how big, is just math.

For those who never make a starter, or who always make a starter (perhaps always the same size), that's essentially the same as saying "pitch rate doesn't matter."

 

[BlutoA10C]

IMO, every wort has an ideal pitch rate (cells per ml per degree plato). It may not be an absolute ideal. Brewers get to to decide what the ideal pitch rate is for their beer. But once you decide that, whether or not you need a starter, and how big, is just math.

For those who never make a starter, or who always make a starter (perhaps always the same size), that's essentially the same as saying "pitch rate doesn't matter."

Vikeman, I agree, "pitch rate matters" and it's about math. That said, I'm lazy so I do "basic math": I use an online calculator to compute the ideal cell count for the starter (based on brew type), I convert to "ounces", harvest from the starter and pitch. Seems to work well, but I'm not an expert . . . Cheers!

 

[Redhouse Brewing]

For ales I will typically use liquid yeast, build a 2 liter starter, decant, then split that in half. if doing a single batch, I will save half for a future batch. If doing a double batch, just split it. According to the starter calculators, this gives a boost in numbers for the current batch, plus saves money or a run to the LBS in the future. I use a 2 liter flask and stir plate for this. But if I am not pressed, I will just get a pack of Wyeast or Omega and just pitch it straight. Never had an issue doing this and it’s a hell of a lot easier.
For lagers, I will just try to get to proper pitch rates depending on the recipe. I will more likely use washed yeast for a lager due to the lesser hops.
When first reading about starters, these articles say you should do them since they are easy to do. BS, they are a pain in the butt and a bunch of extra steps. You have to get wort to the right volume and gravity, heat it, cool it, aerate, pitch, get the stir plate going, decant, clean, etc. Then I have had spill overs on the stove, a cracked flask, a stir plate gone bad, and a batch that went nuts and bubbled over the flask and stir plate. The point being, if you don’t have a reason, and it’s not improving your final beer then save yourself the hassle.

Now I always use yeast starters for liquid yeast strains.In the past I have just pitched straight from the pkg with no starter for anything less than 1.060 but I will say I like the results much better by using the starter first. I use brefather app and it calculates the amount of starter needed - usually 1L. I have found a great product that simplifies making the starter at morebeer.com. It’s called propper starter which is canned wort. All you do is sanitize your flask/stir bar and pour in the proper starter (room temperature) and add 16oz of bottled or distilled water! No measuring dme, no boiling/cooling, etc., and it works great! I’ve been using it for a year now on all my brews with liquid yeast and am super happy. If you plan ahead you can decant it but most of the time I just pitch the whole thing in after 24 hrs spinning on the plate. Here’s a link for anyone interested in trying it:

https://www.morebeer.com/search?search=propper+starter

 

[malter]

I used to overbuild starters and save some for the next batch. My refrigerator was full of pint mason jars of various yeasts. I still do that occasionally, but...

One day about a year ago, I built a big starter with Hornindal Kveik. I really like this yeast for a variety of styles. I then dried the complete starter on parchment paper in my oven with the light on. After drying, I got a sandwich baggie full of flakes. I put that sandwich baggie inside another one and put it in the deep freeze.

I just did an all grain IPA last weekend. Pitched a teaspoon of my frozen flakes (no rehydration or thawing), and the Hornindal ripped through the wort in 48 hrs. I've done that about 10 times in the past year, with the same results every time. Fast fermentation, great beer.

malter

 

[Dinadan]

Here is something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. I always use dry yeast (Unless I am using saved trub) and just pitch them into the wort. The yeast typically start fermenting within 12 hours. Okay, suppose I made up a small batch of wort and pitched the yeast to make a starter. It is still the same yeast and the same wort. Are the yeast really happier when they are concentrated into pint instead of five gallons? I mean, they reproduce asexually, so it is not as if they have to go looking for mates!

I can understand that the increased number of yeast in the starter will give the yeast a jump on any bad microbes. But, the starter itself also gives the bad microbes a place to start.

Call me puzzled

 

[VikeMan]

Here is something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. I always use dry yeast (Unless I am using saved trub) and just pitch them into the wort. The yeast typically start fermenting within 12 hours. Okay, suppose I made up a small batch of wort and pitched the yeast to make a starter. It is still the same yeast and the same wort. Are the yeast really happier when they are concentrated into pint instead of five gallons? I mean, they reproduce asexually, so it is not as if they have to go looking for mates!

The purpose of pitching yeast into a starter that's smaller than the main batch of wort is to increase the cell count before pitching that increased count into the main wort. By doing this, you limit the amount of times the yeast need to bud in the main wort (thus limiting esters). And that's assuming the yeast would have even had enough resources (mainly cell wall material) to reach ideal density in the main wort. If they didn't, then direct pitching results in a more severe under pitch. The purpose of a starter is to make more yeast. The purpose of the main fermentation is to make beer.

Couple more thoughts. You mentioned a pint. A pint won't produce significant cell growth. Not for a 5 gallon batch. Effective single step starters will be larger than that.

Also, you mentioned dry yeast. With dry yeast, it's usually easy enough to get the cell count (pitch rate) from one or two packs, without a starter. There are exception, but then you can always got to 3 or 4 packs. Dry yeast is cheap.

 

[Golddiggie]

Here is something I have a hard time wrapping my mind around. I always use dry yeast (Unless I am using saved trub) and just pitch them into the wort. The yeast typically start fermenting within 12 hours. Okay, suppose I made up a small batch of wort and pitched the yeast to make a starter. It is still the same yeast and the same wort. Are the yeast really happier when they are concentrated into pint instead of five gallons? I mean, they reproduce asexually, so it is not as if they have to go looking for mates!

I can understand that the increased number of yeast in the starter will give the yeast a jump on any bad microbes. But, the starter itself also gives the bad microbes a place to start.

Call me puzzled

Hi Puzzled...

You follow the same sanitize rules when making a starter that you would for your full beer. I sanitized the F out of the flask (filled with Starsan for more than long enough), spray the outside of both the starter wort cans, immerse the measuring cup in Starsan, and spray the outside of the yeast pouch (or tube) or dunk it in Starsan to sanitize.

In dozens of batches using starters, I've never had a single issue. I also typically see the beer go full active fermentation in just a couple/few hours from pitching the slurry. I also decant the majority of the spent starter before it's time to pitch. I then get the yeast into full suspension so it all goes into the pool.

With canned starter concentrate, plenty of stirplate options, and such it's very easy to get into making/using starters. Far easier than when I started doin this even ~10 years ago. No more boiling some DME in water to get the correct OG of the starter, chilling it down to a safe temp, etc.

I do tend to use fermcap in the starters these days. Especially after the first, and second, starter step with the Wyeast 1882-PC from frozen was pushing the stopper out of the flask. Luckily, I caught both in time to prevent a disaster. That was with a 1L starter in a 2L flask. I've since been using my 3L flask and just make sure I have a spot in a fridge for it to rest 1-2 days before brew day.

IMO, unless you're getting liquid yeast that was born <1 week before you brew a lower ABV/OG 5 gallon batch, you'll benefit from a starter. Or, at worst, the starter won't do any harm/negative. IIRC, part of what boosted my short time from pitch to 'ape-****' activity in the fermenter was using pure O2 to oxygenate the wort in the brew. It's part of why the stirplate makes faster/better/smaller starters too. Without a stirplate you'll need to make much larger starters to get the same cell count at the end. Plus, they'll take longer to finish. Except when the yeast pack is more than 2 months old, I typically see the starters finish (even a first step of a two or three step schedule) in less than 24 hours. Many times in less than 18 hours.

 

[Beer Viking]

I watched that video and it said after you harvest yeast and store it you need to make a starter before you pitch it. Can I just harvest yeast and store it in my fridge and pitch it as is, provided I pitch enough mls? How long is harvested yeast good for in the fridge?

 

[jddevinn]

At low pitching rates total yeast growth is limited by oxygen-dependent lipid synthesis. There is an excess of oxygen compared to the amount of yeast (assuming correct oxygenation level.) However, the oxygen is also used up by non-lipogenic pathways. The initial yeast population becomes lipid saturated but daughter cells become oxygen limited.

At proper pitching rate yeast growth is limited by the nutrient supply available, with oxygen being the limiting nutrient.

A low pitching rate will not achieve the same amount of final yeast as an adequate pitching rate as the oxygen is used by other pathways. These other paths will cause an excess of esters.

Proper pitch rate is given as a suggested range but has an effect on the recipe the same way that changing grains, temperature or water chemistry. Starter or not starter really isn’t the question. Question is if you are achieving the proper pitch rate that you want for your recipe.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I always use dry yeast ...

Well known dry yeast brands (Lallemand, Fermentis, MJ) suggest either sprinkling on the wort or re-hydration. Rarely do they mention making a starter from a package of dry yeast.

There are plenty of anecdotes and some interesting "edge cases" around making a starter from dry yeast. There are also plenty of anecdotes from people who just pitch it dry and walk away. Personally, I don't measure "time to visible fermentation" as it doesn't seem to impact the final quality of the beer. But if minimizing the time from "grain to glass" is important, it appears that a starter is helpful.

My thought would be to pitch it dry or re-hydrate it (take full advantage of the super power that dry yeast offers) and evaluate the beer that you end up making.

 

[Dinadan]

I want to say thank you to the folks who took the time to respond to my post.

Vikeman - I have read about the ester thing and the bigger pitch limiting them. I am not sure if I have been lucky about that or just got used to esters because all my beer has that flavor. My beer is not always perfect by any means.

 

[BlutoA10C]

Dinadan, as long as you like the beer, it's good beer! That's my philosophy. If someone was paying me, I guess I would change my toon .

Cheers!

 

[McKnuckle]

Can I just harvest yeast and store it in my fridge and pitch it as is, provided I pitch enough mls?

Yes, absolutely. The yeast pitch calculators attempt to help with the "how long is ok" and "how much is needed" variables. Viability decreases over time, but with a large enough amount of yeast, it may not matter. Conversely, you can usually get away with a small amount of yeast that just finished fermenting a prior batch.

Give one of the calculators a try.

 

[TenaCJed]

Like many others, I always do a yeast starter and overbuild using online calculators to determine the amount of the starter. I keep some of it in a mason jar to keep for future brews, which is again started in a yeast starter and overbuilt again. I probably have 8 Bootleg Biology strains going right now, and a couple of others as well.

 

[Sidious]

I don't use starters. I'm making 10 gallon batches now and have been using Imperial liquid yeast, 2 pouches per batch which gives me almost exactly what I need according to what Beersmith calls for. On occasion my HBS is out of Imperial I use 3 packages of dry yeast, usually US05. I never have issues with hitting my FG targets and my beer is quite good. I have my entire process pretty dialed in at this point.

Even with the added expense of 2 packages of Imperial I'm still between $.65 and $.75 a beer.

 

[hawaiibrewer]

When I first started brewing I just used the Wyeast smack packs which seemed fine for the 6 gallon fermenters, but because the questionable viability once the packs arrived in Hawaii (22 years ago not much was locally available), I started using a starter. It ensures yeast viability, particularly if I'm using a 3-6 month old smack pack. Since I order from the mainland and shipping is high, I usually order a bunch of packs to cover a few months worth of brewing.

At times I'll harvest yeast and repitch and sometimes will make a starter with that just to ensure viability. I use a stir plate I made from computer parts, but initially I would just shake the starter a few times a day and it worked fine.

I typically brew 12 gallon batches and split it between two, 6 gallon fermenters, pitching a different yeast "style" in each.

 

[odie]

there is no "right answer". it's whatever works successfully for you and produces good beer.