How many batches to make quality beer?

[zippyclown]

"Good beer" is subjective, so what I'm wondering is how long you brewed (timeframe, or maybe # of batches) before you were brewing "quality beer" on a consistent basis.

I think we brew so many sub-par batches in the beginning that it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking a poor quality beer is average, and an average beer is fantastic. Because we invest so much into making it.

But when did you truly, honestly, unbiasedly hit your stride?

For me, I'm going to say roughly 18 batches. Which was several years. Mainly, it took that long for me to get the right equipment & process down. But also to know which ingredients I was misusing or abusing.

Or maybe I'm just still fooling myself. Maybe this journey will never end.

Curious to hear other peoples experiences.

zc

 

[mhermetz]

I feel like I just did the past year. Probably close to 25 batches. No other real way of explaining why other then there is ALOT of bad and misinformation available from people claiming to be experts. Most of it from trying to make the process quicker or simpler; which can be an attractive thing to new brewers.

 

[j1n]

3rd batch for me. first and second one would have been good if i had a fermentation chamber. My issue was only ferm temps. i nailed everything else my first brew. i researched online and read books about how to brew a few months before i even tried. Also i started with all grain.

 

[Psylocide]

Took me two.

The first was before I started here, the second was a Coopers can I tried to "spice up" and then I went to AG and started making my own recipes once I read these forums until my eyes bled.

I'm making quality beer every time, and it's not just the "mother's love" effect... I can tell good beer from ****ty beer.

 

[j1n]

Took me two.

The first was before I started here, the second was a Coopers can I tried to "spice up" and then I went to AG and started making my own recipes once I read these forums until my eyes bled.

I'm making quality beer every time, and it's not just the "mother's love" effect... I can tell good beer from ****ty beer.

Yes, i believe its not hard to make good beer right off the bat if you do your research first. I like to learn from other peoples mistakes and not my own. This forum helped me out a lot when first starting off. I read john palmers book first then researched every single question that popped up in my head about brewing.

i was set on making a good first batch and was very disappointed when i failed. after the 2nd failure i bought a STC 1000 and a chest freezer.

 

[MotorcycleMatt]

First time, i read a ton, did a starter, controlled the ferm temps, did most of the extract at flame out. This wasnt morherly love either, one of the brewmasters from one of our bugger microbreweries down here said it was damn good.

 

[brew_ny]

two, the first one I did not set my STC 1000 right and the beer got a little hot with Nottingham

had a very slight butter taste it was not bad cold, second was OK but that's it

after that full boil all grain and life is good

after 60 brews since july 2013 they all come out very good, but I brew the basic beers I like

and most of my recipes I have brewed many times

all the best

S_M

 

[PlexVector]

I started AG last fall. I did extract for a couple of years BI (Before Internet) so I knew what I didn't want to do (not that it was extract, but I really didn't do it to today's standards). Spent all summer doing research on-line, mapping the process and buying equipment. Finally in the fall when the temp in the garage was at fermenting temps I pulled the trigger. Kept to a simple APA and strict sanitation, forced carb, etc...keeping as simple as possible. Made some process step errors because I didn't have a check list, but nothing serious and it was very drinkable, equal to some OTC craft brews. Repeated the recipe, and it turned out a little different, a little better. Repeated the process the next two times with basic IPA with dry hoping. Same sorta results as the first two. Brews 5 and 6: still in fermentor; one a new APA and the other a variation of the dry hoped IPA from before with a little diff hop schedule and mix of 3 hops instead of two. So, after being very conservative at first, the 6th brew is kinda like creating my own recipe, but just making small changes that seem to make sense based on what I've read hear and past experience.

Short answer: first four was good, each got better in a way. I tasted number 6 at dry hoping and it was promising, so baring no issues I hope it to be great, and number 5 only time will tell.

 

[brew_ny]

nice to see so many folks saying the same thing, they did their research

I wanted to brew and started reading here and a couple other places back in November 2012

followed member's brew threads, read problems people were having and then joined April 2013

I never brewed until July 2013 started by brewing tested recipes from the database here as they were written

then after going all grain I brewed 4 batches of Cream of Three Crops over a month to see if I could brew a beer

and repeat time and time again

all the best

S_M

 

[1977Brewer]

My 2nd turned out good, 3rd is one of the better beers I've ever had, 4th is in the fermenter. The 1st was terrible, but that's because I followed the kit instructions, and it was only a gallon. The last bottle was pretty okay. I jumped feet first into AG once I realized that paint strainer bags were 2 for 4 bucks and I could beg borrow and repurpose almost everything else.

 

[McGarnigle]

My 2nd beer was good, but the OP is asking about consistency. I've had some "meh" beers since then, and I can't guarantee that I won't have them again. So I guess I don't know how to answer this.

As much as people talk about doing research first, I think that can only go so far. Sometimes you just have to learn from mistakes.

 

[zippyclown]

My 2nd beer was good, but the OP is asking about consistency. I've had some "meh" beers since then, and I can't guarantee that I won't have them again. So I guess I don't know how to answer this.

As much as people talk about doing research first, I think that can only go so far. Sometimes you just have to learn from mistakes.

I agree that research only goes so far. I think the correct equipment is key. It took me 15 batches before I could get the right equipment. When I did, my beer improved in quality and consistency of quality. Research was the easy part!

Most of you are saying that you hit your stride after just a batch or two. But also it appears that you all had all-grain equipment as well as temperature control.

$500+ invested in the hobby after just a batch or two. That just wasn't realistic for me. And maybe most people? Curious...

zc

 

[j1n]

I agree that research only goes so far. I think the correct equipment is key. It took me 15 batches before I could get the right equipment. When I did, my beer improved in quality and consistency of quality. Research was the easy part!

Most of you are saying that you hit your stride after just a batch or two. But also it appears that you all had all-grain equipment as well as temperature control.

$500+ invested in the hobby after just a batch or two. That just wasn't realistic for me. And maybe most people? Curious...

zc

This hobby isnt nearly as expensive as other hobbies so spending a few hundred isnt much if you compare it to other hobbies.

I used to be into modifying cars. Thats a lot of $ rightt here for parts n stuff.

Also shooting guns. 1 gun can cost a few hundred to thousand+ easily. And then there's ammo.....

Fermentation Chamber cost me like $250.

This is a pretty cheap hobby once you get your setup.

 

[Kent88]

Taste is so subjective and we aren't all BJCP judges, so it is impossible to take our bias out of the equation.

I've brewed plenty of small batches over the past couple years. I may only be on the second batch that I end up dumping a significant amount of.

How many would I proudly share? Most of them.

I'm of the opinion that if you don't brew a less desirable beer a couple times a year then you are being too conservative. Sure it is great to dial into making a brew that you greatly enjoy, but sometimes you just need to shake things up a little.

 

[agrazela]

I only brewed one really "bad" beer, my very first one. Then got ferm temp control and started making "OK" beer. After about 20 batches I got it down to where I don't get any real surprises as far as hitting the numbers, etc., and I'm now making "good" beer consistently with the occasional "very good." I believe after about 40 batches now I have yet to make a "great" beer...though the BoPils I'll be bottling soon may approach greatness!

 

[Sailingeric]

I have been lucky so far with my beer. I started in November and most of them have pretty good. I got off easy with us keeping the house on a bit of the chilly side so my beers have been in the butter zone of fermenting temp. We are moving a bigger house this week and I will have a nice size shed to do my brewing in so first order of business will be getting a fridge or freezer for temp control since warmer weather will be on the way.

 

[aprichman]

The 1st batch I made was pretty awful but everything sense then has been drinkable. I feel like when I made the switch to AG my beers really started to shine.

Entering my 1st beer contest next month so I'll get a chance to see how my homebrew stacks up against other peoples.

 

[electrolight]

I think we brew so many sub-par batches in the beginning that it's easy to fool ourselves into thinking a poor quality beer is average, and an average beer is fantastic. Because we invest so much into making it.

for me it's quite the opposite. I've had friends love a batch of beer that I thought was mediocre. I'm 13 batches in and of those 13. One was actually decent. The rest were sub-par or worse. For me I guess it's the greyhound and the rabbit situation. Forever chasing. Who knows. Maybe someday I'll hit my stride. But for now... I'm my biggest critic.

 

[Billy-Klubb]

the first batch of beer I ever brewed was the best beer in all of history. where to do go when you start out at the top? every batch of beer I made is so awesome that Denny Conn, Charlie Papazian, and @TNGabe are all super duper extra ultra maxi jealous of my wicked awesome skills. Matt Lauer can suck it.

 

[aprichman]

the first batch of beer I ever brewed was the best beer in all of history. where to do go when you start out at the top? every batch of beer I made is so awesome that Denny Conn, Charlie Papazian, and @TNGabe are all super duper extra ultra maxi jealous of my wicked awesome skills. Matt Lauer can suck it.

 

[kh54s10]

My first kit got a little warm during the first night of fermentation. It turned out good. My second kit was a NB Patersbier kit. It was fantastic. Everything has been pretty consistent since then. Aug 2011. I have made a couple that were so - so. They were experiments, quite drinkable but nothing special.

So if you use quality ingredients, have a good procedure there is no reason you shouldn't have consistently good brews almost immediately.

 

[madscientist451]

I went all grain from the get-go. Messed up the mash temp on first batch and thought it was crap, but then let it age a couple of months and I really liked it after all. Tasters at my brew club agreed it was good, so it wan't just me. There have been ups and downs as I have tried different things. I know how to brew good beer, but I like to be on the edge of experimentation and have fun with it, so if things don't work out I just brew some more. So now I rebrew my best recipes and throw in an experimental batch every third or fourth time.

 

[Braufessor]

Took me a LONG time if I am being honest. However, I think there is a big difference starting today and starting a long time ago. I am pushing 20 years since my first batch, and the information, ingredients, number of people brewing, etc....... pales in comparison to now. "bleach" was a good sanitizer, get the wort below 80 and pitch the yeast..... that is where I started, and it showed. I am sure I brewed a couple hundred batches over 12-14 years that ranged from horrid to mediocre to occasionally great. But, I would say in the last 5 years I have gotten more and more consistent and am getting to the point that I would say the majority of my beer is really good.
I still have batches that are "ok" and sometimes just bad..... but, generally that is as I am exploring new processes, styles, recipes and techniques. If I brew something "tried and true" it turns out very good almost all of the time.
For the last 5 years I have probably averaged 50 batches per year ...... no substitute for brewing often and acquiring all the information that you can.

 

[stevedasleeve]

My first really good beer was #7. My first unbelievable I ain't buying any more of that ****e out there cause I can make it WAY f*cking better beer was 17.

 

[brew_ny]

no substitute for brewing often and acquiring all the information that you can.

brewing often oh how true

 

[iijakii]

My first ones were great. Once I started out making my own recipes in AG I made a few mediocre ones and an awful one.

"oh hey, this stout was better this time with an extra 3% chocolate malt... lets try tripling it!" - that was also how i found out i really hate chocolate malt and prefer just using a smaller amount of roast barley though. So, whatever. Went back to not being a jackass and made great beers again.

 

[Zepth]

I'd say it comes down to nailing the process. Even without fancy ferm chambers if you are a swamp cooler master you should be able to pull it off. For me, batch 16 was the first amazing thing to come out of my brew room. Brewed from a known recipe. #22 was supposed to be the same, but that didn't go so well. In all honesty if the first attempt of the recipe came out like that there wouldn't have been a second time around. Process was constantly changing with my equipment upgrades and couldn't get anything solid.

I now have gotten much more standardized in my process, knowing my equipment, extraction %, etc. I have successfully made BM Cent blonde twice now, both batches near indistinguishable from one another. Incidentally there was no real change to my process or equipment between attempts.

I also set high standards for myself. Anything that's just OK is by nature mediocre and disappointing. Even though friends may like it, I am a harsh judge of myself.

 

[SnakeRidge]

It didn't take me long to make quality beer but my sense of quality has changed a good bit since 97. Pickings were pretty slim for good beer in them times.

 

[schematix]

The first batch I had temp control my beer went from just good, to great. I have never had a great home brew where there wasn't active temp control.

 

[jbob7171]

I just want to add that, in my experience, friends, family, and aquaintances are the absolute worst way to get feedback on your homebrew. It's always "this is really good beer, I really like it." They may actually mean it or they just don't want to hurt your feelings, it's so hard to tell. The only real way to get constructive feedback is entering beers into competitions.

To the OP's question, I would say about 10-15 batches for me. I also did a lot of research first and went all-grain on my second batch.

 

[njviking]

I brewed crap for 10 years then took 15 years off. I just started again last year.

My tastes, mind and attitude have evolved over that time and i feel that this time around i have a better perception of good beer. I've placed and won a few categories in local contests, so I think im on the right track to brewing good beer.

One thing my father always said.... you can't learn anything with your mouth open. I've learned to take in info more so than tell people what i know.

 

[smokinop]

I was so in love with my first beer, a fuggle pale ale kit, that I was not very objective but I was hooked. I moved to AG kits after around 10 extract/mini-mash kits. Had a pretty good run with good beers but have 2 that I dumped & a few that I probably should have. The last year or so I started to pay more attention to detail, keep better records, & started using Brewsmith 2 with more consistent results, which means better beer.

I was just discussing my brewing tonight with my wife tonight. I have had a chugger pump for a while but have taken my time with all the accessories...money's been tight. I have every thing to get the pump in action now but I have had @ 15 brews with no issues & hate to fix what is not broken. I will start using my pump soon but I really am comfortable with my processes now & can see myself in the future doing basically the same thing I am doing right now! Temp control with my mash & temp control with fermentation. Makes life easier!

 

[fivepointslow]

7 or so batches before I got anything drinkable. By my 12-13th I shared and everyone seems to like what I make. All about figuring out your brew process.

 

[Zepth]

I just want to add that, in my experience, friends, family, and aquaintances are the absolute worst way to get feedback on your homebrew. It's always "this is really good beer, I really like it." They may actually mean it or they just don't want to hurt your feelings, it's so hard to tell. The only real way to get constructive feedback is entering beers into competitions.

I tell people when they're critiquing anything I've made that I want their honest opinion. They've come to learn that I can only improve things that I know need improving, and that I genuinely want the feedback.

 

[jakenbacon]

I love how many people were making fantastic quality beer on their second and third brew. I thought my first batch was great, but to be making consistently fantastic quality beer....100 plus batches and that was my experience and most pro's will tell you the same. It is a matter of balance and adjusting to your system to really get there. 2-3 batches my ass lol.... Would love to try these peps brews lol...

 

[1977Brewer]

I love how many people were making fantastic quality beer on their second and third brew. I thought my first batch was great, but to be making consistently fantastic quality beer....100 plus batches and that was my experience and most pro's will tell you the same. It is a matter of balance and adjusting to your system to really get there. 2-3 batches my ass lol.... Would love to try these peps brews lol...

Pm me your address. It's entirely possible. I love that it took you 100 tries to get it right.

 

[jakenbacon]

Pm me your address. It's entirely possible. I love that it took you 100 tries to get it right.

Lol, well like others have said it is subjective, and I would love to try your first couple batches. So funny you think you can brew quality beer not knowing your system. Tell ya what buddy, if your beer is half as good as say Firestone Walkers anything, I will spread your good word and call you a god. Something tells me I am not to worried about it lol... I started on this forum before my first batch and read three books and am a general fanatic at whatever I get into. Sure you can make beer people will like, and that is good, but high quality you can measure all the way around with no faults? Don't think so.... Like I said man, prove me wrong, I will do tasting on this sight just to prove how awesome you are LOL. I have seen you on here before and your posts so bring it all day buddy :cross:

 

[brew_ny]

How many batches to make quality beer?

my bad I did not read that as

making fantastic quality beer

how's your beer working for you?

 

[1977Brewer]

I started here before I started brewing too, however that matters. I'm pretty damn proud of the beers I've made, and they've been well received. In the end, I'm brewing for me, and really don't have to prove squat to anyone else. I just took umbrage with your attitude about it.

And forget it, I'm not wasting beer on you.

 

[1977Brewer]

And no new messages. You didn't really want it anyway.

Edit....lol