How many amps??

[dmarc85]

I may have an electrician come install a few dedicated circuits; one for my bev air cooler and another for a future electric setup. I'd be making 20gallon batches with an electric HLT, BK and probably a few pumps. QUESTION: What should the amp rating be for my future electric setup? 40A? Higher?


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[TrainSafe]

I'd recommend a 50a outlet for your setup. It will be quicker to heat than a 30a setup. You can use two elements at once. The problem with a 40 a circuit is that there really isn't a standard plug/outlet for them.

 

[dmarc85]

Train safe, thanks! Question number two...I have my bev air 3 door cooler on a 15a circuit that ain't cutting it. I may have a dedicated circuit put in for this guy too. Here is some info:



What size size circuit would you recommend for this one? 20a?


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[mblanks2]

Train safe, thanks! Question number two...I have my bev air 3 door cooler on a 15a circuit that ain't cutting it. I may have a dedicated circuit put in for this guy too. Here is some info:

View attachment 210620

What size size circuit would you recommend for this one? 20a?


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That cooler shouldn't require any more than a 15 amp dedicated circuit. 12 amps is 80% of the max load of the circuit so 15 should be fine. If you install a 20 amp circuit you'll be at 60% of max load and if there were to be problems with the cooler it MAY NOT trip the breaker.

 

[dmarc85]

That's what I was thinking...I am still having issues with this cooler tripping the breaker when I have ANY other load simultaneously i.e. garage door opener, lamp, power drill charger etc.

It seems like it would be wise to at least have a dedicated circuit (20A) to be on the safe side. I feel like I'm on the threshold...


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[mblanks2]

That's what I was thinking...I am still having issues with this cooler tripping the breaker when I have ANY other load simultaneously i.e. garage door opener, lamp, power drill charger etc.

It seems like it would be wise to at least have a dedicated circuit (20A) to be on the safe side. I feel like I'm on the threshold...


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The amp rating on your cooler is 12 amps. If you plug in a lamp and trip a 15 amp breaker then there is a problem with your cooler. Could be a weak or bad capacitor and it's pulling more amperage than necessary.
Installing a dedicated 15 amp circuit should be just that, "dedicated" to the cooler only. 20 amps could cause problems by not allowing the breaker to trip in which case it can cause fire. That's the purpose of a circuit breaker, to protect against fire.
If you install a dedicated 30 amp or 40 amp circuit it would probably never trip the breaker unless you had a dead short and could easily start a fire.
15 amps is the maximum circuit I would install for this cooler and do not use for anything but the cooler. If the breaker continues to trip get a professional to look at the cooler. Something is wrong.

 

[dmarc85]

That's excellent advice. I'll most likely have a 15a dedicated because I often have a few things running on this circuit already AND I am most likely going to have a 40A circuit installed for a future electric setup.


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[dmarc85]

2 bird with one stone.


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[TrainSafe]

Remember that the breaker is selected to match the size of the wire. Nothing else. If you have wire rated for 15a, you can't upgrade beakers without replacing the wire.

 

[kal]

It's always recommended to put fridges/freezers (or any device with a compressor) on its own dedicated circuit. When the compressor first kicks in the current inrush can be high.

The worst thing you can do is put two fridges on the same circuit as if there's a power outage, when the power comes back on the sudden inrush of multiple compressors coming on can pop the breaker. You may not find out about it until later when all the food's gone bad.

+1 to using a *dedicated* 15A breaker for that beverage air. I have 3 dedicated 15A circuits in my brewery formy keezer, freezer, and conditioning fridge.

+1 to getting a 50A 4-wire (supports both 240V and 120V) circuit for the brewing setup. While I "only" have a 30A control panel, I did pull 6# wire in the wall just in case I want to upgrade in the future to a 50A panel.

Kal

 

[dmarc85]

I am definitely going with a dedicated circuits for fridge and brew setup. I appreciate all the info!

First, I need to resolve the current issue that's cropped up with the bev air; it's popping the breaker even without anything else running on the circuit.

There was mention made in this thread earlier that my capacitors could be bad and potentially causing the circuit breaker to pop. Thoughts?


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[BlkWater_brewer]

If you suspect the cooler then it would be simplest to have someone put a meter on the circuit and test it before replacing anything. Sometimes the issue is incredibly simple, even a bad connection in a box will make things flaky. Chasing an electrical issue without the proper tools can get annoying.

 

[grathan]

FOr me 50 amp breaker was the same price as 30 amp or 40 amp gfci. I only do 5 gallons and am glad for 50 amps just in case I run hlt and kettle at the same time for some reason.

Yeah, something could be up with the fridge. Why not just get a new one?
If you have a 20amp circuit I would try that. I have an air compressor that trips my 20a breaker. There is nothing wrong with it. Just hard starting. They might make a delayed breaker.

 

[jar]

Remember that the breaker is selected to match the size of the wire. Nothing else. If you have wire rated for 15a, you can't upgrade beakers without replacing the wire.

I'd pull wire rated for 20A and then put a 15A breaker on it. If you change coolers eventually it's cheap and easy to swap the breaker. Pulling new wire would suck.

 

[MDHarris]

Like trainsafe said. The breaker is only there to protect the wire. It isn't suppose to protect the equipment you are using, that would be an overload device. The 20 amp circuit (20 amp breaker wire and outlet) is what your cooler needs. We never install 15 amp circuits in new or old homes anymore accept for something like a smoke alarm circuit. The electrician you hire should steer you right.

 

[dmarc85]

Like trainsafe said. The breaker is only there to protect the wire. It isn't suppose to protect the equipment you are using, that would be an overload device. The 20 amp circuit (20 amp breaker wire and outlet) is what your cooler needs. We never install 15 amp circuits in new or old homes anymore accept for something like a smoke alarm circuit. The electrician you hire should steer you right.

That's actually really helpful information. I've been through this coolers wiring diagram a million times to double check connections just to make sure it's all hooked up right. I have suspect the circuit is just not cutting it. I'm gonna move forward with a new 20a circuit for the cooler and a 50a for the future e-kettles.


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[ajdelange]

The worst thing you can do is put two fridges on the same circuit as if there's a power outage, when the power comes back on the sudden inrush of multiple compressors coming on can pop the breaker. You may not find out about it until later when all the food's gone bad.

Which is why some commercial equipment has an adjustable delay after power up before the control circuits are energized. Just set the delays differently by a few sec and you are covered.

 

[evanmars]

...
20 amps could cause problems by not allowing the breaker to trip in which case it can cause fire. That's the purpose of a circuit breaker, to protect against fire.
If you install a dedicated 30 amp or 40 amp circuit it would probably never trip the breaker unless you had a dead short and could easily start a fire.
...

That's like saying if you only have a 100W lamp plugged in, you should only have something like a 1 amp breaker.

The breaker is sized for the wire it is protecting, not the appliance hooked up to it.

 

[jeffmeh]

That's like saying if you only have a 100W lamp plugged in, you should only have something like a 1 amp breaker.

The breaker is sized for the wire it is protecting, not the appliance hooked up to it.

Yes. However a failure in the appliance could cause a fire if there is not an internal fuse to protect its wiring. If I were building a brewing control panel, I would certainly use breakers or fuses rated to protect its wiring.

 

[MDHarris]

Me too. But this guy just wants to plug his cooler in and not have the breaker trip.

 

[atoughram]

I am definitely going with a dedicated circuits for fridge and brew setup. I appreciate all the info!

First, I need to resolve the current issue that's cropped up with the bev air; it's popping the breaker even without anything else running on the circuit.

There was mention made in this thread earlier that my capacitors could be bad and potentially causing the circuit breaker to pop. Thoughts?


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Do you have access to an ammeter?

 

[ajdelange]

If the unit is label rated for 12 amps there is no way it would pop a 15 amp breaker unless that breaker is bad so I suppose you might try replacing that as a first step. But you really should get a clamp on ammeter and check the running current. If it is over 12 amps something is wrong with the compressor such as a bearing that is seizing up, an obstruction in the metering device (though that would probably be indicated by higher than normal temperature in the cold box. It has also been suggested that there is a problem with a starting/running cap. If the starting relay were stuck on (so that the starting cap never disconnected) that would draw extra current through the cap and starting winding. Current draw is the main indicator here so take the advice that has been given several times: check the current. You can get a clampon ammeter for a few bucks e.g. http://www.homedepot.com/p/Klein-Tools-600-Amp-AC-Digital-Clamp-Meter-with-Temp-CL200/202521277

 

[dmarc85]

AJ, thanks! I've gotten some really good info from this thread. I was actually looking at that ammeter yesterday at lowes. This gadget would actually give me a good idea about what's really going on.


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[dmarc85]

The ammeter doesn't lie. This guy is pulling 16 amps Again it's rated for 12A. Ideas?


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[dmarc85]

FYI the first photo is the ground reading.


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[ajdelange]

I guess I'd start by looking for start and/or run capacitors. A start cap gets thrown into the circuit when the compressor starts and is disconnected once it is running. If it doesn't get disconnected it will continue to draw current. With the compressor running you should measure 0 current through a start cap. If the main winding pulls 12 amps and you find 10.6 or so amps going through the start cap (these would sum to 16 amps because they are orthogonal in phase) you will have a clue as to what is happening. In this case pull the connector off the start cap while the compressor is running (be careful as the circuit is hot - use something insulated or make the connection with an insulated alligator equipped jumper with the machine unplugged, plug it in and disconnect the insulated jumper once the compressor is up to speed). If the compressor continues to run and the current goes down to 12 amps then you have determined that whatever it is that is supposed to disconnect the start cap isn't doing that. If it is a start relay that can be replaced. If it is a centrifugal switch in the compressor motor repair will be more difficult or impossible if a hermetically sealed unit.

If the compressor begins to run roughly when the 'start' cap is disconnected then it isn't a
start cap but a run cap. Some motors have both.

If the starter cap circuit checks out OK (no current draw) then check the main winding draw. If it is 12 amps then the extra current is going to some other sink such as a defrosting coil or light. If the main winding draws more than 12 amps or if sqrt(main_current_squared + run_cap_current_squared) is > 12 amps then there is something wrong with the compressor motor or the refrigerant circuit. Time to call in a pro.

These thoughts are based on what might be in your system as I have no knowledge as to what is in your system.

Another thing you can do is use the ohm meter and capacitance measuring functions of the meter to determine that any capacitors are 1) not shorted and 2) deliver the capacitance as indicated on their labels.

 

[dmarc85]

Dude thank you. Great info. I'm going to do a little troubleshooting.


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[dmarc85]

So the start cap checks okay. The pull coming from the compressor is a bit under 12a. The current through the main power wire is a little over 12a with the compressor running. What should the pull be off the run capacitor while the compressor is going? Is there something else I'm missing?


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[dmarc85]

Is it possible that the amp rating for the unit refers to just the compressor rather than the overall pull by the unit?? With the compressor pulling 12a alone might it stand to reason that an extra 5 or so amps are simply the being pulled by the lights, fans etc.?

Would it be possible that the unit is functioning correctly this entire time or am I just being desperately hopeful?


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[ajdelange]

So the start cap checks okay. The pull coming from the compressor is a bit under 12a. The current through the main power wire is a little over 12a with the compressor running.

That's sounds sort of normal. The compressor would take the lions share of the juice with the other stuff (lights, condenser and evaporator fans etc.) taking a much smaller share. But you observed earlier that the draw through the hot (black) wire was 16 amps. ??

What should the pull be off the run capacitor while the compressor is going? Is there something else I'm missing?

The square root of the sum of the squares of the run cap winding and the main winding should be less than 12 amps thus allowing some current for those other devices.

 

[ajdelange]

Is it possible that the amp rating for the unit refers to just the compressor rather than the overall pull by the unit?? With the compressor pulling 12a alone might it stand to reason that an extra 5 or so amps are simply the being pulled by the lights, fans etc.?

Probably not. The numbers on the name plate should reflect the maximum the unit takes unless otherwise specified.

You can check the draw of individual other components (if you can access their leads). Condenser fans usually run only when the compressor is running but evaporator fans sometimes run continuously so a feed (black) wire reading when the compressor is off may not reflect the load of everything but the compressor.

You can also look for a rating plate on the compressor motor itself which may give data on the compressor's current demand. 'FLA' (Full Load Amperes) or 'RLA' (Running Load Amperes) tell you how much the compressor should draw when running. 'LRA' is Locked Rotor Amperes and a something we hope you won't have to deal with (except at startup). RLA would tell you what the compressor should draw. But note that the actual running amperes depend on the load i.e. on the suction and condenser pressures within the refrigerant circuit. Some variation is normal but a consistently high RLA could be indicative of, for example, low suction pressure.

Would it be possible that the unit is functioning correctly this entire time or am I just being desperately hopeful?

Probably not. Thinking further about it the main winding pulling the full 12 amps leaves nothing for the rest of the system and probably indicates a problem with either the compressor or refrigeration circuit.

I should also point out that I am not a refrigeration guy. I know (knew) enough to pass the cert so I can buy the refrigerants but that's about it.

 

[dmarc85]

20a circuit installed DIY. Runs like a dream. Next is my 50a 240v