How long does Brett C. usually take to take off?

[Matteo57]

I pitched some brett C into a 2L starter for a 1.050 blonde ale. Let it sit on the stirplate for about 14 hours then pitched into fermenter. How long should it take to see visible signs of fermentation? I understand brett needs longer usually for starters.. but I didn't have any longer.... so.... Yah... I was a month and a half before the best before date on the yeast so that would be 2.5 months after packaging the yeast.
I'm sure that Brett is different than ale yeast, but going off mrmatly it says viability would be 61% and I would only need 1.12L starter on a stir plate...
Anyways, I pitched on monday night and still have yet to see any real signs of fermentation.... Any thoughts?
Does it usually go crazy? Is there a lot of kraussen like any other brew?
This is the first time I have used brett.

If it doesn't take off within the next day or two... I have a packet of safale us-05 lying around.... Thoughts on adding this to try and get things going?

Thanks a lot for the info!

 

[TNGabe]

I'd say you're kinda SOL on this one. To get a pitchable amount of brett from a white labs vial, you need to do at least 2 steps, with 7-10 days per. Whatever you add to get it going is to going to be your primary strain and you should get some character from the brett over time. If you use a yeast with more character, there will be more for the brett to work with.

 

[Matteo57]

Soooo.... Maybe just let it ride knowing I will dump it and then use the cake for the next beer I wanna do in a couple weeks after it drops out?
Say it does start up and does something.... Since I under pitched so much... How will it affect things?

 

[TNGabe]

If you try and reuse the yeast, it probably won't be very healthy after the underpitching. If you do get much fermentation, I'd guess it will be very under attenuating and have lots of weird phenols. I'd put my money on burning tires/electrical fire.

 

[Brulosopher]

I'd say you're kinda SOL on this one. To get a pitchable amount of brett from a white labs vial, you need to do at least 2 steps, with 7-10 days per. Whatever you add to get it going is to going to be your primary strain and you should get some character from the brett over time. If you use a yeast with more character, there will be more for the brett to work with.

Huh?! It's Brett, at some point signs of fermentation will appear. I'd give it another couple days before changing plans.

 

[TNGabe]

Huh?! It's Brett, at some point signs of fermentation will appear. I'd give it another couple days before changing plans.

I'm not sure what your point is. Brettanomyces is a yeast. When you pitch maybe 5% of the cells you need and more likely about 2%, you're going to have a bad fermentation.

A white labs brett vial has something like 50 million cells in it and that's when it's fresh. I can't remember the exact number, but it's about as much as a finger nail compared to a white labs sacc vial which has about as much as a finger. If he was lucky, he might have pitched 5% of the cells he needed.

 

[Brulosopher]

I'm not sure what your point is. Brettanomyces is a yeast. When you pitch maybe 5% of the cells you need and more likely about 2%, you're going to have a bad fermentation. A white labs brett vial has something like 50 million cells in it and that's when it's fresh. I can't remember the exact number, but it's about as much as a finger nail compared to a white labs sacc vial which has about as much as a finger. If he was lucky, he might have pitched 5% of the cells he needed.

But it will still ferment his wort. Besides, Brett can benefit from a little stress. My point: it's not a lost cause yet.

 

[TNGabe]

But it will still ferment his wort. Besides, Brett can benefit from a little stress. My point: it's not a lost cause yet.

I know arguing on the internet is pointless, but if you have some data or even anecdotal evidence to back this up, I'm all ears.

 

[Brulosopher]

Not arguing, discussing!

First off, I'm on my phone and don't feel like googling with my thumbs.

Second, I'm not saying his beer will be amazingly good, just that it will almost certainly start showing signs of fermentation within a few days- when it's done he can taste it and decide from there. Presumptuous brewing creates waste and potential deliciousness

 

[Channel66]

Not arguing, discussing!

First off, I'm on my phone and don't feel like googling with my thumbs.

Second, I'm not saying his beer will be amazingly good, just that it will almost certainly start showing signs of fermentation within a few days- when it's done he can taste it and decide from there. Presumptuous brewing creates waste and potential deliciousness

Unfortunately you're wrong, will his beer ferment with that amount of yeast pitched? Sure thing. Will he see signs of fermentation within a week? Doubtful.

The brett that we can purchase as homebrewers can only be stored in low quantities in very rough shape to start with. You're talking about an under pitch by about 600% (and that is assuming it's a fresh vial always well treated, and the minimum suggested pitch rate, basically in a perfect world we are talking 600%) it will eventually build up a colony large enough to do the job. But it will be mutated and stressed beyond belief from the extreme underpitch. I highly suggest pitching some more yeast, but I wouldn't use 05 it will mow through the sugars leaving the brett little to work with (mostly just the complex sugars) once it does get going. Try a Belgian style like wyeast 3522 if you want to get a bit of funk pitch a blended bug yeast like wyeasts roeselare, but be mindful it's a slow fermentation at this point to get any brett character. And with roeselare you'd be looking at 12-18 months on the yeast cake to get where you want to be. But it includes lacto, pedio and 2 different brett blends.

 

[Brulosopher]

Unfortunately you're wrong, will his beer ferment with that amount of yeast pitched? Sure thing. Will he see signs of fermentation within a week? Doubtful. The brett that we can purchase as homebrewers can only be stored in low quantities in very rough shape to start with. You're talking about an under pitch by about 600% (and that is assuming it's a fresh vial always well treated, and the minimum suggested pitch rate, basically in a perfect world we are talking 600%) it will eventually build up a colony large enough to do the job. But it will be mutated and stressed beyond belief from the extreme underpitch. I highly suggest pitching some more yeast, but I wouldn't use 05 it will mow through the sugars leaving the brett little to work with (mostly just the complex sugars) once it does get going. Try a Belgian style like wyeast 3522 if you want to get a bit of funk pitch a blended bug yeast like wyeasts roeselare, but be mindful it's a slow fermentation at this point to get any brett character. And with roeselare you'd be looking at 12-18 months on the yeast cake to get where you want to be. But it includes lacto, pedio and 2 different brett blends.

Only time will tell...

 

[Channel66]

Only time will tell...

Well I hope for his sake you are right, unfortunately the science says that it wont be what he is looking for. without getting into numbers and explaining in detail how brett reproduces and its life cycle. I can assure you that it wont work out. Im also mobile, but if I have to I will log on to a computer and get you the information you are looking for just let me know, I will.

 

[TNGabe]

Only time will tell...

I guess you could say only time will tell if the sun rises tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it will.

Well I hope for his sake you are right, unfortunately the science says that it wont be what he is looking for. without getting into numbers and explaining in detail how brett reproduces and its life cycle. I can assure you that it wont work out. Im also mobile, but if I have to I will log on to a computer and get you the information you are looking for just let me know, I will.

How's this?

 

[Channel66]

I guess you could say only time will tell if the sun rises tomorrow, but I'm pretty sure it will.



How's this?

Thats a nice paper! thanks for the reading material, thats actually very relevant to my current research! thanks!

 

[Evan_L]

While I am far from knowledgeable when it comes to Brett, and still a newb at brewing, i've been reading up on it as i'm pitching some BrettB tomorrow. From what I understand so far, underpitching and stressing Brett will increase the funkyness. It may be a massive underpitch, but isn't it bound to get at least some Brett character? After all, we segregate Brett equipment because we are concerned that even a few cells might remain and give other beer a Brett character.

Actually, nevermind...I didn't realize it was the sole yeast involved. Wouldn't pitching the 05 help though. Even if it mowed through the wort, there must be something left for the Brett to work on, even if it takes forever.

 

[stillbrew10]

We pitched Brett C. as primary (from a starter) a bit ago and got no activity for 2 weeks (was still at OG). We were ready to give up, but decided to move it to a hotter location and keep waiting. 3 weeks later the gravity had dropped to 1.006. Beer still sitting on the yeast so no report on if the drop was due to infection or slow activation of the Brett with the beer turning out fine.

Not necessarily advocating to keep waiting or go hotter, just thought I would share our experience.

 

[Evan_L]

Lol, disregard my comment....I committed the fatal interwebs error of speaking before reading everything. After reading the link to that paper, i'm clearly in over my head

 

[Channel66]

While I am far from knowledgeable when it comes to Brett, and still a newb at brewing, i've been reading up on it as i'm pitching some BrettB tomorrow. From what I understand so far, underpitching and stressing Brett will increase the funkyness. It may be a massive underpitch, but isn't it bound to get at least some Brett character? After all, we segregate Brett equipment because we are concerned that even a few cells might remain and give other beer a Brett character.

Actually, nevermind...I didn't realize it was the sole yeast involved. Wouldn't pitching the 05 help though. Even if it mowed through the wort, there must be something left for the Brett to work on, even if it takes forever.

Correct, in that pitching 05 will leave the brett something to work with. It will mostly be the complex sugars remaining in the beer. but this is the up and down of what would be going on.

The us-05 yeast will attenuate to about 72% within a few days. The brett C will be trying to reproduce in a higher than ideal gravity, with a very healthy fast working yeast going to town eating up all of the easiest food over its head. By the time the US-05 is done, the brett will still be trying to reproduce, eating slowly what sugars the 05 left behind, taking the extra effort to break down your more complex sugars, stressing itself to continue building up the colony.

Just because brett can eat complex sugars, it does actually prefer the simple ones. Just like anything else in this world it will expel the least amount of energy possible first ESPECIALLY during its reproductive stage.

So what I am saying is that the proper amount of healthy US-05 will leave the poor severely underpitched brett hungry and stressed, while its still trying to reproduce, thus making it harder for them to do so, and creating weird flavors as they try to break down and digest complex sugars whilst they are making baby yeasties.

If you pitch healthy correct quantities of brett, in secondary, or, just after the 05 is done, read correct pitching rates. They will go to town on what's left over. But an unhealthy pitch now, then pitching a healthy yeast on top. You'll be robbing the brett of everything they need early off in life

 

[Johnnyhitch1]

I know arguing on the internet is pointless, but if you have some data or even anecdotal evidence to back this up, I'm all ears.

Ive pitched 644 and 645 in to different worts straight from vial...

Brett is its own being, and ive really never had a stuck or "bad" ferment from under pitching. Actually got tons of fruit and light acidity. Exactly what i was going for.

To OP. DONT USE US-05. Let it ride out for atleast a month and see what happens. Brett ferments can take a while, specially in there lag phase where they can take more that the usually 72 hours to start fermentation.

Cheers!

 

[Matteo57]

So I upped the temp to 75-76ish from 68 overnight and after about 15-16 hours it looks like this. At least there is Krausen and action going on. I know Brett likes warmer temp so maybe that's what it was (of course on top of underpitching).
My wife told me it almost looked like a pelicle was trying to form this morning but couldn't tell if that's what it was or just looked like it as Krausen was forming.
We shall see. Not holding out hope for this one after all the comments here.... But... It would be nice if of course

 

[Brulosopher]

So it's fermenting?!?!

 

[crawfman]

Twice I have experienced delayed starts to fermentation doing 100% Brett beers. Both times I have stepped up the starters multiple times over the course of a month, ultimately to a 1 gallon starter. Also both times I put the starters in the fridge to crash and decant...something I've heard Chad Y. say to never do. Maybe this is the common cause...maybe not. Either way, around the 3-4 day mark they go crazy and have been great. So wait and never pitch the sach, I say.

 

[Matteo57]

Well, I opened up the fermenter to smell and it smells pretty bad.... I am going to sit on it just because I don't need the fermenter for anything anytime soon but I don't see any airlock activity or anything.... just what i showed...
Oh well... Live and learn I guess.....

 

[PistolaPete]

Any updates on this?

 

[Matteo57]

I let it sit 3 months and it was still horrible so I dumped it! Live an learn! Will try it again sometime

 

[PistolaPete]

I let it sit 3 months and it was still horrible so I dumped it! Live an learn! Will try it again sometime

Man, that sucks. Any idea what went wrong?

 

[Matteo57]

Under pitched by a lot? Only one vial for 100% ferment doesn't really work very well

 

[statseeker]

I would have sat on it a year. At least. You don't dump any brett batch sub 1 year. Brett does awesome things given time. I've heard some brewers of styles that include brett never dump a batch unless they get a serious mold infection or aceto-bacteria makes it into vinegar. They wait until the beer says its done and the taste profile is where they want it. Otherwise, it stays in the container.

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