How long before I give up on my starter

[Joseph Gaskell]

I'm attempting to do a starter for a packet of Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale Yeast. The packet had a use by date of June 20, 2023, so I figured it would need a good starter. I've had a 3L starter on the stir plate for about 16 hours now, no signs of any activity so I sanitized and took a reading with my refractometer and got a reading of 1.036, which is close to the gravity I was aiming for when I made the starter wort. Did I pitch a pack of dead yeast or should I give it more time? Has anyone seen a yeast take longer than 16 hours to show any activity?

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

Give it more time, some yeast strains are slow to start, I had a white labs abbey ale yeast recently take 2 days before it decided to wake up, also on my stir plate. I was getting concerned but then just like that it took off.

 

[Bassman2003]

Shows how little one can trust the dates on the package unless the yeast was mishandled along the way. If it does not have activity over two days, you might want to get different yeast as it will most likely poop out towards the end of fermentation when you really need it for Belgian style attenuation.

 

[Deadalus]

Are you turning off the stir plate to check for activity? Sometimes the agitation masks activity. Turn it off for few minutes and let it settle down then check as it is not always obvious there is activity.

Is it a 3 liter flask? I use foil on the top and will lightly lift that so that air can flow in but nothing will likely float in to allow a little more oxygen in. If the headspace is small you won't be getting enough oxygen.

Do you have an IR temp gun or know the temp? 70-72F I think is around optimal but if you have it in a cooler place it may be slower. Like if you put in the basement to avoid the clickety-clack because you didn't buy the smooth stir bars.

Yes I have seen it take longer than that as I keep mine in the basement and didn't always temperature control as I try to do now. Also, if you only had a small percentage of viable yeast, you'd be pitching into a relatively large amount of wort. Not as much of an issue with a commercial pack as these start out with a considerably large amount of cells in order to pitch into 5 gallons but I bank my yeast at about 200ml when I make my first starter from the pack. If these are old, I will do a two step starter as I figure there aren't as many yeast cells in there.

 

[Joseph Gaskell]

Are you turning off the stir plate to check for activity? Sometimes the agitation masks activity. Turn it off for few minutes and let it settle down then check as it is not always obvious there is activity.

Is it a 3 liter flask? I use foil on the top and will lightly lift that so that air can flow in but nothing will likely float in to allow a little more oxygen in. If the headspace is small you won't be getting enough oxygen.

Do you have an IR temp gun or know the temp? 70-72F I think is around optimal but if you have it in a cooler place it may be slower. Like if you put in the basement to avoid the clickety-clack because you didn't buy the smooth stir bars.

Yes I have seen it take longer than that as I keep mine in the basement and didn't always temperature control as I try to do now. Also, if you only had a small percentage of viable yeast, you'd be pitching into a relatively large amount of wort. Not as much of an issue with a commercial pack as these start out with a considerably large amount of cells in order to pitch into 5 gallons but I bank my yeast at about 200ml when I make my first starter from the pack. If these are old, I will do a two step starter as I figure there aren't as many yeast cells in there.

I did try the on/off trick as I learned of this during my last starter when I almost had the krausen overflow, I didn't see anything when I tried this time.

5L flask with 3L of wort at about 1.035 specific gravity, based on the Brewer's friend yeast starter calculator, and I have a foam stopper that seems to do a good job of letting in oxygen based on my last 2 starters.

No IR temp gun, but I have it sitting in a room at about 76F, so maybe a little warmer than ideal, but base on all the replies so far, I'm gonna let it for for another day or so and see what happens. Hopefully, the little guys will wake up and get to work soon.

 

[bailey mountain brewer]

76 should be fine for the starter, I'd let it role for another day before I got concerned. When is your brewday?

 

[wdavis2003]

My last lager yeast took about 48 hours before I saw activity. I had already given up on it and went and bought some dry yeast but I kept it going on the stir plate anyway. I think while I was brewing I noticed activity finally.

 

[Joseph Gaskell]

Woke up this morning to a milky starter, I think they woke up in the middle of the night. Thanks for the advice everyone!

 

[Bassman2003]

Good. Hope it works out but do keep track of how the yeast perform in the batch. I have tried to force yeast many times in the past and am at the point of not trying to use anything but super fresh and ready to go yeast. The batches often had attenuations issues or some off flavors because the yeast was too tired to clean up at the end.

 

[beren]

I’m always nervous the first 36h lol. Esp when I had some snap packs 8 months past date… finally made starters to freeze in the yeast bank, I think I’m up to 9 or 10 yeasts now

 

[beren]

Good. Hope it works out but do keep track of how the yeast perform in the batch. I have tried to force yeast many times in the past and am at the point of not trying to use anything but super fresh and ready to go yeast. The batches often had attenuations issues or some off flavors because the yeast was too tired to clean up at the end.

That’s why you make the starter, it’s all new fresh yeast. Worst case decant and add more wort on top of the starter cake you’ll be amazed at how it builds.

 

[Bassman2003]

The thread is about the starter being weak Weak yeast - make a starter. Weak starter - ?

 

[beren]

The thread is about the starter being weak Weak yeast - make a starter. Weak starter - ?

Add more dme

Actually I’ve read with old or weak yeast that you should make a small weak starter at about 1.020 and when that gets going add more wort to get it up to about 1.040

 

[day_trippr]

When starting with "bottle dregs" it's often recommended to start with 100ml of 1.010 wort...

Cheers!

 

[Bassman2003]

Add more dme

Actually I’ve read with old or weak yeast that you should make a small weak starter at about 1.020 and when that gets going add more wort to get it up to about 1.040

I think you are missing the point a bit. It is not just about fuel for yeast, it is about healthy yeast that can benefit from more fuel. Tired, old & under-nurished yeast are not going to multiply well and consequentially ferment well to the end. If you have old yeast, you can break it down to a small number of healthy cells and start a much longer process of building up from there to make a large amount of fresh cells. Or just get some fresh yeast.

I have moved to frozen 50ml vials that I start with. It is about a 1 week process - start with a 250ml start of 1.020 wort, then step that up to 2L of 1.035 wort. This yields a majority of new, fresh cells by the time I pitch which is the best I can do.

 

[IslandLizard]

This is my favorite yeast pitch/grow calculator, it's a good guide:
http://www.brewunited.com/yeast_calculator.php
For WhiteLabs Pure Pitch sleeves I fudge the Production Date to reflect only 3-6% viability loss per month.

 

[beren]

I have moved to frozen 50ml vials that I start with. It is about a 1 week process - start with a 250ml start of 1.020 wort, then step that up to 2L of 1.035 wort. This yields a majority of new, fresh cells by the time I pitch which is the best I can do.

Maybe you need to reevaluate your cryo procedures. I pitch 10ml of a yeast/water/glycerine mix into a 1.038-ish and its good to pitch in 3 days and is quick to ferment. Like in Maintaining A Healthy Yeast Bank Long Term

 

[Bassman2003]

I will stick with my method. That article is one person's opinion and is kind of confusing as they do not really say what size vial they are using. 50ml are shown in the photo but the text is not clear. I go by the industry standard of 10x step-ups and give the yeast plenty of time to complete their cycles. It is not a speed game. I sourced my method from smart folks as well as the Chris White Yeast book. My goal is a lot of yeast cells. You can do three days and it will make beer but you will not have as many cells in the end.

Sorry if I offended. We have no idea on internet forums what experience other poster's have. Your posts saying "That’s why you make the starter, it’s all new fresh yeast." is factually incorrect. If you begin with a bunch of tired old cells and throw some wort on them, unless you take the steps of seeing which cells perk up, remove them to a separate container and grow from them, you are going to have all of the old dead cells just hanging around. So your starter will have a large percentage of dead cells. If you did a 10x step up, best case scenario is 2x growth. But 2x a bunch of dead cells does not equal very much!

 

[beren]

They do say 15ml vials in there somewhere and the pictures of the vials show smaller ones. You crash the yeast and split up the entire cake into 10. It’s about 7ml each for me often, but almost all yeast cells. It’s 1/10 of the starter so going to 1l directly is a 10x bump. It’s not taking 7ml of a well mixed starter and freezing that like it sounds as you are doing? Also, dead cells don’t reproduce. Old tired ones make new fresh ones. I’m unsure how you ensure you only move active, young yeast. Do you use a microscope and very fine tweezers?

 

[Bassman2003]

I think it might be good to do some more research. 10x on 7ml of slurry is 70ml of wort for the first step. Then 700ml of wort for the 2nd. Then whatever you are going for. If you are throwing the 7ml of slurry in 1000ml of wort, that is not industry practice. Once again, it will make beer and to each their own. Why is this not good? - it wears the cells out.

As far as old cells vs fresh cells. Do you do things well when you are worn out? Yeast cells act the same way. It is best to not work with old cells as they degrade. To ensure vitality, I order yeast and freeze it right from the package. So the starting base is healthy and is frozen healthy with some nutrient to keep it happy. I get 4 brews out of one purchase. More if I wanted but I do not need to.

I like the 50ml vials (25ml of slurry) as it only takes two steps to get to solid pitching numbers for ales. Two vials for lagers. If you want to see my process, click on the YouTube link below as I made a video about it. I have been brewing for over 20 years and have learned to respect yeast health more and more over the years. Better in - better out.

 

[beren]

I think it might be good to do some more research. 10x on 7ml of slurry is 70ml of wort for the first step. Then 700ml of wort for the 2nd. Then whatever you are going for. If you are throwing the 7ml of slurry in 1000ml of wort, that is not industry practice.

No, your math is off. 1l of starter is about 70ml of slurry. By your math a 1l starter's slurry can only make a.... 700ml starter? Split the slurry into 10, it will be equiv to 100ml of starter. 100ml of starter can me... 1l at 10:1 And by slurry, i mean crashed yeast cells, there's almost no liquid with them, it's all decanted off. Some of the yeasts are as thick as yogurt.

Brewing for 20 years is great. My yeast comes out of the freezer and makes great & fast beer after a 3 day starter build up. Your way works, but is possibly overkill. I dont know your methods, how much yeast is really in your slurry, nor if you mix it with glycerin to protect it when freezing, The method I linked works great and in a lot less time with smaller (and more) vials in the freezer. /shrug

And if you even read the first post, you'd notice the line "I am a microbiologist by education and trade" so he likely knows far more about yeast then you do (and me certainly.)

 

[Bassman2003]

Not intending to argue with you but you said you have 7ml of yeast in your frozen vials... I was speaking about starting from a single frozen vial.

 

[DavidWood2115]

His math is right.
White Labs claims 2.15 billion cells per ml. So 7 ml of yeast is 15 billion cells. After a 10X step up he has 150 billion cells. This is enough healthy yeast for a 5 gallon batch of ~1.050 of wort (for an ale yeast).

 

[mashdar]

As far as old cells vs fresh cells. Do you do things well when you are worn out? Yeast cells act the same way. It is best to not work with old cells as they degrade.

But will your grandchildren be old and decrepit because you are? (edit: to be clear this is a hypothetical; I do not know your age)

The labs are surely very good at propagating yeast, but domesticated yeast did fine for thousands of years without fancy bioreactors.

If you're propagating at all, you're likely losing the lab "magic", and your starter will either produce healthy yeast or not. (I throw some nutrient in for some extra "magic", but surely the yeast is adapted to beer for breakfast, lunch, and dinner?)

Very weak yeast needs some babying, and extra generations could select for over/under floc, etc, but I don't think it's a big deal if you're not shooting for tons of repitch cycles.

rdwhahb

 

[shoengine]

I'm attempting to do a starter for a packet of Wyeast 1214 Belgian Ale Yeast. The packet had a use by date of June 20, 2023, so I figured it would need a good starter. I've had a 3L starter on the stir plate for about 16 hours now, no signs of any activity so I sanitized and took a reading with my refractometer and got a reading of 1.036, which is close to the gravity I was aiming for when I made the starter wort. Did I pitch a pack of dead yeast or should I give it more time? Has anyone seen a yeast take longer than 16 hours to show any activity?

I brought back a WL Belgian yeast with a date of 2020. Took about a week before I saw any progress.