How do you know the cell count in a starter?

[bajaedition]

I started doing starters about 10 years ago

I was reading some stuff about pitch rates and all and noticed that the amount of yeast in liquid yeast was below what is needed for a 5 gallon batch. (from the sources I had read)
I am a lager head so it claims I need even a higher cell count
SO I made a Starter, 2 liter and pitched it in an ale, the beer took off well, and after 3 days was dropping out. The beer was cleaner tasting and when I finished it out, was clearer.
Now NO I do not have Cell count totals for that.
My lagers really improved.
Then I made the switch over to dry yeast, actually they claim it has a higher cell count than liquid. I was not really worried about that, it was I had moved far from a LHBS and just wanted to have good yeast around when I needed it.
I kept the same techniques with starters and it seemed to work better than the liquid yeast. I always did a cold crash and poured off the spent wort,

To improve the starter I started to clean the wort out of the starter. Instead of just pour off till I only had the yeast slurry, I would add a liter of preboiled and cooled water, shake up and do another cold break and do another pour off. That produced even a cleaner beer as I was not pitching all the yuck.

Now I see a trend to know exactly how much yeast cells to pitch
Wanting to further learn and improve my craft I have to say.........

I know this:
I am NOT going get a microscope and count cells till I get an exact number
I can not really tell you how many cells I am starting with

ok then
It is an estimate that yeast double every 100 minutes, so do I time my starters to get it just right?
My techniques are doing great, so IF I change to estimating cell count will it do better?

In my starters I nurture the yeast so I have healthy yeast, good cell structure and high cell count, but just how do I guarantee the cell count?

 

[Denny]

You don't really know.

 

[bajaedition]

So then all this talk about pitch rate is bunk?

 

[c673986]

Only true way is a microscope....but i do know a brewery that takes the weight of their wit yeast pitch after the initial run. Their wit isn't very "Belgiany" if they over pitch. So, what you'd need to do would be measure your washed yeast, either weight or volume, and adjust accordingly.

You could also learn how to acid wash your yeast if you're looking for "Clean" character, but that requires more equipment as well.

 

[hvjackson]

Are you trying to get a more accurate number the a pitching rate calculator? The only way to really know for sure is to count. For me, the calculators are good enough. I like the one at Brewer's Friend: https://www.brewersfriend.com/yeast-pitch-rate-and-starter-calculator/

 

[Cavpilot2000]

While it's true that calculators are really just a scientificallly-based best guess, they're better than nothing. There are many.
I too use the Brewer's Friend one (I also use their mash calculator FWIW).

 

[beermanpete]

An estimate is close enough. The starter volume can be used to predict cell multiplication. If I understand it correctly a 2 Liter starter should double the cell count when starting from the typical liquid yeast packages available to home brewers.

Yeast by Chris White and Jamil Zainasheff is a great source of yeast information.

http://www.brewerspublications.com/books/yeast-the-practical-guide-to-beer-fermentation/

 

[Denny]

So then all this talk about pitch rate is bunk?

In a sense. You DO need to pitch an adequate amount of healthy yeast. You don't need to worry about exact cell count. I've been through the whole yeast cycle over the last 20 years...dry yeast, smack packs with no starters, simple starters, yeast calculators and stir plates, and now I'm back to the easy effective method. A one qt. SNS (Shaken Not Stirred) starter for 90% of my beers. I not only get better results than I did with a stir plate and decanting, it's faster and easier (2 things I prize in my brewing).

Here's an article I wrote about it...https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/confessions-yeast-abuser

 

[bajaedition]

In a sense. You DO need to pitch an adequate amount of healthy yeast. You don't need to worry about exact cell count. I've been through the whole yeast cycle over the last 20 years...dry yeast, smack packs with no starters, simple starters, yeast calculators and stir plates, and now I'm back to the easy effective method. A one qt. SNS (Shaken Not Stirred) starter for 90% of my beers. I not only get better results than I did with a stir plate and decanting, it's faster and easier (2 things I prize in my brewing).

Here's an article I wrote about it...https://www.experimentalbrew.com/blogs/denny/confessions-yeast-abuser

nice article

I am there, I do 5 gallon batches now so a liter starter works for me now, I get great results, have been getting great results for years with what I do.
But you know, I was just wondering if there had been some improvement I could follow. I pride myself in my beer. I think I like brewing it more than drinking it.
OK, drinking is good.

Anyway, I see a lot of hype, my opinion has always been it will multiply out till it hits consumption population and then go for it. If you pitch enough then it starts sooner. Beer I brewed Monday already making music in the blow off tube bottle. Sooner the start the better the beer.

So I thought I would ask. Not being a chemist and all. Yeah I only got a B in chemistry in college, ruined my 4.0 average. Damn Professor had to ding me for my conversion calculations and significant figures.

I digress

Back to the discussion

 

[hvjackson]

I guess I'm not clear on what exactly your question is.

The only way to know for sure what the cell count is, is to count it.

If you don't want to count it, you will have to estimate it based on a formula. You can either use the size/gravity of the starter to estimate, or you can use the volume of yeast slurry to estimate.