How do YOU adjust recipes for high efficiency?

[Magnus314]

How do you adjust your recipes to make them high-efficiency BIAB style?

In other words, I get a consistent 88% efficiency. And I feel like my beers are MORE flavorful because of that.

Do you just adjust base grains down (only), or do you lessen all grains, or only steep grains, but not mash-able grains, etc?

I'm still hoping to find that "magic formula" to be able to make recipes and get the "standard" result, even though I get awesome efficiency BIAB style.

 

[RM-MN]

I'd adjust only the base grains, those whose starches would turn to sugars during the mash. Since that is where the sugars come from, that is where the efficiency is derived. I'd consider something like Munich or Vienna as a base grain but not the caramel/Crystal nor the darker roasted grains.

 

[DurtyChemist]

I think equipment would have a bigger impact on efficiency than recipe design.

 

[RM-MN]

I think equipment would have a bigger impact on efficiency than recipe design.

You're right about that but after you make a batch or 2 and discover that with your equipment you get way higher efficiency than the recipe called for and end up with a 7% beer instead of a 5% one, you need to adjust the recipe to account for the equipment.

 

[helibrewer]

How do you adjust your recipes to make them high-efficiency BIAB style?

In other words, I get a consistent 88% efficiency. And I feel like my beers are MORE flavorful because of that.

Do you just adjust base grains down (only), or do you lessen all grains, or only steep grains, but not mash-able grains, etc?

I'm still hoping to find that "magic formula" to be able to make recipes and get the "standard" result, even though I get awesome efficiency BIAB style.

I work in percentages on the grain bill to do this. Software certainly makes it easier.

 

[LLBeanJ]

I adjust base grains only. Common sense says to adjust the entire grain bill and that's what I used to do, but I often found them lacking in flavor, so I took to just adjusting the base grain and leaving the specialty grains per the original recipe and have been much happier with the outcome. YMMV

 

[MarshmallowBlue]

I'd adjust only the base grains, those whose starches would turn to sugars during the mash. Since that is where the sugars come from, that is where the efficiency is derived. I'd consider something like Munich or Vienna as a base grain but not the caramel/Crystal nor the darker roasted grains.

So when I'm plugging my info into something like this http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/ , I should only use my base grains? Specialty grains add no gravity?

 

[Magnus314]

I think equipment would have a bigger impact on efficiency than recipe design.

I wasn't very clear. I'm already getting great efficiency, and wondering how I can or should adjust recipes because of that.

Thanks for all the responses!

For lighter beers adjusting only the base grains has been working out fine... when a Pilsner or a cream ale comes out VERY flavorful, that's fine with me

But for stouts, porters, IPA's, etc. every glass can be a palate wrecker Delicious, but waayyyy over the top flavor wise.

 

[RM-MN]

So when I'm plugging my info into something like this http://www.brewersfriend.com/brewhouse-efficiency/ , I should only use my base grains? Specialty grains add no gravity?

Specialty grain do add gravity but their starches are already converted (I'm thinking of the caramel malts here) so your efficiency has no effect on that. Your efficiency is only dealing with the base grains where how much starch you convert and how much of the sugars produced you are able to extract from the grains in the mash.

 

[Magnus314]

Specialty grain do add gravity but their starches are already converted (I'm thinking of the caramel malts here) so your efficiency has no effect on that. Your efficiency is only dealing with the base grains where how much starch you convert and how much of the sugars produced you are able to extract from the grains in the mash.

Totally true.

But mashing vs. steeping changes things for extract, and mashing roasted and specialty grains WITH base grains gets higher attenuation from the specialty grains, which is why I'm asking (especially high efficiency guys like you) what you do

 

[chickypad]

Totally true.

But mashing vs. steeping changes things for extract, and mashing roasted and specialty grains WITH base grains gets higher attenuation from the specialty grains, which is why I'm asking (especially high efficiency guys like you) what you do

I'm not sure if you get much more from very dark roasted grains mashing vs. steeping. Nilo's experiments on crystal malts show you do get some additional yield from those. Also there are the specialty malts and adjuncts that require mashing so makes sense to increase those percentages (e.g. biscuit, flaked grains, etc). In practice I always just go straight by percentages for simplicity. Dark roasted grains are not usually more than about 10% of my recipes, and if you are talking about maybe a 10% change in efficiency or so it seems like not enough difference to worry about for me.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I adjust base grains only. Common sense says to adjust the entire grain bill and that's what I used to do, but I often found them lacking in flavor, so I took to just adjusting the base grain and leaving the specialty grains per the original recipe and have been much happier with the outcome. YMMV

I feel like this has been my experience as well. When I've adjusted the overall percentages, lowering the amounts of ALL the grains across the board, I felt like it lost a lot of character. I asked the similar question as the OP and found that most people adjust the whole bill.
I suspect it depends on just how much adjustment is needed. If the recipe is based on 75% mash/lauter efficiency and you get 80%, maybe you won't notice. But if your recipe is based on 70% and you get 85%, it may be more pronounced. I've dialed in my 3-vessel to get 90%+ mash/lauter efficiency, and and still still trying do dial in scaling recipes.
Question for the OP: I get about 78% conversion efficiency with BIAB. Any tips for getting yours?

 

[chickypad]

I feel like this has been my experience as well. When I've adjusted the overall percentages, lowering the amounts of ALL the grains across the board, I felt like it lost a lot of character. I asked the similar question as the OP and found that most people adjust the whole bill.
I suspect it depends on just how much adjustment is needed. If the recipe is based on 75% mash/lauter efficiency and you get 80%, maybe you won't notice. But if your recipe is based on 70% and you get 85%, it may be more pronounced. I've dialed in my 3-vessel to get 90%+ mash/lauter efficiency, and and still still trying do dial in scaling recipes.
Question for the OP: I get about 78% conversion efficiency with BIAB. Any tips for getting yours?

Good points, as I mentioned for my typical adjustments we're usually talking an oz or two difference of any given specialty malt between the two methods. There are some recipes written for very low efficiency, though, and some of you guys do get really high numbers so the difference could be significant. I guess the question I have about your first statement, what are you comparing to when you say it loses character? Are you comparing your brew to the original brewer's version, or to your own version with different percentages? Maybe you actually changed the intention of the recipe by upping the relative percentages of specialty malts and find it has more character because of it. Not sure if I am articulating this well but hopefully you can see my point.

 

[uncleleon]

A simple fix for my high efficiency was to calculate recipes at 5 gal and end with 5.5 gal. There's 10 percent.

 

[MindenMan]

I may have missed the point of the question; if the OP is getting 88% efficiency (which by the way is amazing), and is wondering how to adjust his recipes, why wouldn't he just adjust the efficiency percentage in the brew calculator he is using?

 

[Black Island Brewer]

Good points, as I mentioned for my typical adjustments we're usually talking an oz or two difference of any given specialty malt between the two methods. There are some recipes written for very low efficiency, though, and some of you guys do get really high numbers so the difference could be significant. I guess the question I have about your first statement, what are you comparing to when you say it loses character? Are you comparing your brew to the original brewer's version, or to your own version with different percentages? Maybe you actually changed the intention of the recipe by upping the relative percentages of specialty malts and find it has more character because of it. Not sure if I am articulating this well but hopefully you can see my point.

I think I know what you're asking. The best example I have is an Oktoberfest I made. I made two versions to taste side by side, and adjusted the recipes so that they would have the same OG. The two versions had the exact same percentages of ALL the malts, specialty AND base. The 3-vessel yielded 89% conversion efficiency, and the BIAB yielded 75% conversion efficiency. In the end, the BIAB version had a maltier flavor, a darker color, and a thicker mouthfeel. The 3-vessel recipe was lighter, crisper and less malty. I loved them both, but wondered why there was such a significant difference. That got me thinking about whether or not the contributions from the specialty malts are as linear as gravity adjustments, ie: is color, melanoidin and dextrin extraction from specialty grains linear in the same way that starch conversion and extraction from base malts are? I don't have the answers, and at the moment I'm not inclined to test it in more depth - I've got other things I'm MORE interested in at the moment.

Did I answer the question you were asking?

 

[Qhrumphf]

What is with the assumption that conversion efficiency and extraction efficiency are the same thing?

You still have a difference in efficiency when you extract the sugars from crystal malts. You just don't have to convert them first.

I almost never use someone else's recipe, but when I do and am adjusting the efficiency, then I adjust the whole thing by percentage.

As far as why you should leave the specialty malts the same, you don't just get flavor from the sugars, but from the husk matter an the rest of it, and if you're using less actual grain weight, you're getting less of that too. I haven't noticed a problem, but I could see where folks might.

 

[Magnus314]

Question for the OP: I get about 78% conversion efficiency with BIAB. Any tips for getting yours?

I grind very fine in a Corona knock off mill, mash in R/O water with brewing salts added, mash out, and sparge or pour-over sparge to get my pre-boil volume.

With 11 gallon batches all the water and grain won't fit in the kettle all at once.

 

[Black Island Brewer]

I grind very fine in a Corona knock off mill, mash in R/O water with brewing salts added, mash out, and sparge or pour-over sparge to get my pre-boil volume.

With 11 gallon batches all the water and grain won't fit in the kettle all at once.

I wondered if a super grind might be the case. Except for the sparge and the grind, you do what I do. I double mill, but my mill only tightens to .029. Maybe I'll look for and old corona for my BIAB batches.