How do I repitch bottles?

[Evilbuck]

I have a strong IPA 10.1%, and it's barely carbed. It's been 4 weeks since I bottled. If it weren't an ipa, I'd wait it out. What is the process for repitching champagne yeast? How much do you add to each bottle? Should I make a starter and pitch the slurry?
Any advice would be helpful.

 

[Jaybird]

With your question about the yeast I am hearing you feel that your yeast didn't transfer? Or do you fear its alcohol dormant? Maybe you didn't have enough yeast? I wouldn't pitch a champagne yeast for bottle carbing myself. It will likely chew up EVERYTHING in there and cause you serious over carbing issues. Just my .02 there. What was your fermentation schedule? Were you sure you didn't drop all the yeast out of the beer not leaving enough for conditioning? How long was it in primary? Secondary? How much of what sugar did you use for conditioning? What was the OG and FG of the beer and what yeast did you use?

Another thought...Are you leaving these in the fridge for 24+ hours before you actually open them for drinking?

Cheers
Jay

 

[AlexM40]

I have the same problem, my IPA did not carb. I racked it into secondary after 2 weeks. There was no activity in secondary and i bottled it after 3 weeks in secondary. The beer was pretty clear by then. The final gravity at bottling showed it was about 9.5% ABV. I've read that decapping and pitching a few grains of yeast may carb it. My question is how much and what kind? If I rehydrate some bottle conditioning yeast how many drops of the yeast should I use to avoid bottle bombs or gushers?

 

[tennesseean_87]

With your question about the yeast I am hearing you feel that your yeast didn't transfer? Or do you fear its alcohol dormant? Maybe you didn't have enough yeast? I wouldn't pitch a champagne yeast for bottle carbing myself. It will likely chew up EVERYTHING in there and cause you serious over carbing issues. Just my .02 there. What was your fermentation schedule? Were you sure you didn't drop all the yeast out of the beer not leaving enough for conditioning? How long was it in primary? Secondary? How much of what sugar did you use for conditioning? What was the OG and FG of the beer and what yeast did you use?

Another thought...Are you leaving these in the fridge for 24+ hours before you actually open them for drinking?

Cheers
Jay

Have you tried this before? I repitch with wine yeast fairly often and this doesn't happen. They don't like complex, grain sugars, just simple, sweet ones like those in fruit.

I have the same problem, my IPA did not carb. I racked it into secondary after 2 weeks. There was no activity in secondary and i bottled it after 3 weeks in secondary. The beer was pretty clear by then. The final gravity at bottling showed it was about 9.5% ABV. I've read that decapping and pitching a few grains of yeast may carb it. My question is how much and what kind? If I rehydrate some bottle conditioning yeast how many drops of the yeast should I use to avoid bottle bombs or gushers?

I usually rehydrate one packet of wine yeast and use a syringe to put in a few drops when I repitch before bottling. It's important to note that it's the amount of sugar--NOT the amount of yeast--that leads to bottle bombs. You want the bottles chilled so they don't release much gas, because that's carbonation you're not getting back.

P. S. that's way too long to wait on an IPA. You're losing a lot of fresh hop flavor and aroma punch in waiting that long.

 

[Evilbuck]

With your question about the yeast I am hearing you feel that your yeast didn't transfer? Or do you fear its alcohol dormant?

I'm not sure. I just know it's not carbonating and am wondering if the yeast didn't have it in it to carbonate after the 10%+.

Maybe you didn't have enough yeast? I wouldn't pitch a champagne yeast for bottle carbing myself. It will likely chew up EVERYTHING in there and cause you serious over carbing issues. Just my .02 there. What was your fermentation schedule? Were you sure you didn't drop all the yeast out of the beer not leaving enough for conditioning? How long was it in primary? Secondary? How much of what sugar did you use for conditioning? What was the OG and FG of the beer and what yeast did you use?

Another thought...Are you leaving these in the fridge for 24+ hours before you actually open them for drinking?

Cheers
Jay

- Not sure if I had enough yeast.
- My understanding is the champagne yeast would be more tolerant to higher abv and only eat the easily digestible sugars (the corn sugar used for bottling).
- 3 weeks in primary. No secondary.
- No, I'm not sure I didn't drop all the yeast. I'm not sure how I would check or prevent that.
- 4oz corn sugar
- OG 1.090 ; FG 1.012
- Wyeast 1056
- Yes, left them in the fridge for ~24hours +-2hrs

 

[Evilbuck]

P. S. that's way too long to wait on an IPA. You're losing a lot of fresh hop flavor and aroma punch in waiting that long.

Agreed, which is why I'm a bit anxious and unwilling to be patient. Kinda hoping I can solve this shortly.

 

[Evilbuck]

I usually rehydrate one packet of wine yeast and use a syringe to put in a few drops when I repitch before bottling.

Wine or Champagne, any preference for any reason? I've had suggestions for using Champagne yeast for other High Gravity beers when I bottle them. Just curious why one over the other.

 

[Jaybird]

Have you tried this before? I repitch with wine yeast fairly often and this doesn't happen. They don't like complex, grain sugars, just simple, sweet ones like those in fruit.

Yeah I have tried this and it didn't end well for me. Likely other issues in the process. But if you have a stuck fermentation no matter where in the process champagne yeast can assist getting things moving again just sometime a tad too much. Or a tad more than wanted.

From the sounds of it he didn't use enough corn sugar. A big beer like that and only 4 oz sugar? How many gallon batch was this?

Cheers
Jay

 

[Evilbuck]

Yeah I have tried this and it didn't end well for me. Likely other issues in the process. But if you have a stuck fermentation no matter where in the process champagne yeast can assist getting things moving again just sometime a tad too much. Or a tad more than wanted.

From the sounds of it he didn't use enough corn sugar. A big beer like that and only 4 oz sugar? How many gallon batch was this?

Cheers
Jay

5 gallon.

 

[tennesseean_87]

Wine or Champagne, any preference for any reason? I've had suggestions for using Champagne yeast for other High Gravity beers when I bottle them. Just curious why one over the other.

I think it's just what I had around. You're not at 18%, so any wine yeast will work. Some ale yeasts will work, too.

Yeah I have tried this and it didn't end well for me. Likely other issues in the process. But if you have a stuck fermentation no matter where in the process champagne yeast can assist getting things moving again just sometime a tad too much. Or a tad more than wanted.

From the sounds of it he didn't use enough corn sugar. A big beer like that and only 4 oz sugar? How many gallon batch was this?

Cheers
Jay

How does the size of the beer (you mean alcohol content?) effect how much priming sugar you need? I just ran it through this priming calculator and it says 1.9 vol CO2 (IPA preset) fermented up to 70 F would only need 2.9 oz corn sugar. Maybe OP was shooting for higher carbonation and used 4, but why use more for a bigger beer? I have been under the impression that the fermentation of a set amount of sugar will produce a set amount of carbonation regardless of other factors--if there are yeast healthy enough to ferment it.

 

[hannibalmdq]

With your question about the yeast I am hearing you feel that your yeast didn't transfer? Or do you fear its alcohol dormant? Maybe you didn't have enough yeast? I wouldn't pitch a champagne yeast for bottle carbing myself. It will likely chew up EVERYTHING in there and cause you serious over carbing issues. Just my .02 there.
Jay

I see this repeated quite often and it really confuses me. Champagne and wine yeast have a very high alcohol tolerance but they only ferment simple sugars. Sacc eats through all the simple sugars before moving on to the more complex sugars in make based wort. Even with a stuck fermentation, which I don't think is indicated here, there should be very limited simple sugars to ferment.

I can't imagine a scenario where a brewer would repitch wine yeast at bottling and the new culture would ferment anything but the priming sugar. If fermentation were really stuck, it's always possible that the sacc would take back off, but that would've happened irrespective of adding wine or champagne yeast to the mix.

Maybe I'm missing something. Shrug.

 

[gwaugh]

What temp are the bottles sitting at? If the ambient temp is too low where you're conditioning it can take a long time to carbonate.

 

[Evilbuck]

What temp are the bottles sitting at? If the ambient temp is too low where you're conditioning it can take a long time to carbonate.

Between 64-68F degrees. My house has its own microclimates, so I recently moved them somewhere closer to 68-70F.

 

[gwaugh]

Those temps are not unreasonable. I know I've heard interviews with a couple pros that keep their conditioning rooms in the 70's.
When you pop one open are they still completely flat or have they built up at least some pressure?

 

[Jaybird]

I think it's just what I had around. You're not at 18%, so any wine yeast will work. Some ale yeasts will work, too.



How does the size of the beer (you mean alcohol content?) effect how much priming sugar you need? I just ran it through this priming calculator and it says 1.9 vol CO2 (IPA preset) fermented up to 70 F would only need 2.9 oz corn sugar. Maybe OP was shooting for higher carbonation and used 4, but why use more for a bigger beer? I have been under the impression that the fermentation of a set amount of sugar will produce a set amount of carbonation regardless of other factors--if there are yeast healthy enough to ferment it.

I see this repeated quite often and it really confuses me. Champagne and wine yeast have a very high alcohol tolerance but they only ferment simple sugars. Sacc eats through all the simple sugars before moving on to the more complex sugars in make based wort. Even with a stuck fermentation, which I don't think is indicated here, there should be very limited simple sugars to ferment.

I can't imagine a scenario where a brewer would repitch wine yeast at bottling and the new culture would ferment anything but the priming sugar. If fermentation were really stuck, it's always possible that the sacc would take back off, but that would've happened irrespective of adding wine or champagne yeast to the mix.

Maybe I'm missing something. Shrug.

We have to take into account yeast attenuation when adding wine yeast. Lets just say you fermented with WLP002 with a top attenuation level of say 70% Then you add EC1118 at bottling time. It can attenuate lets say 75%-80& and has been known to do even more. You have a 5%, 10% or more attenuation difference. That yeast CAN and usually will go in and do that. Well IF you do that in a bottle lets say AND you are adding corn sugar for carbonation you are adding MORE sugar to the mix than you really think you are just because of the attenuation % difference of said yeast. That was my thinking when discussing just adding a champagne yeast.

Cheers
Jay

 

[hannibalmdq]

We have to take into account yeast attenuation when adding wine yeast. Lets just say you fermented with WLP002 with a top attenuation level of say 70% Then you add EC1118 at bottling time. It can attenuate lets say 75%-80& and has been known to do even more. You have a 5%, 10% or more attenuation difference. That yeast CAN and usually will go in and do that. Well IF you do that in a bottle lets say AND you are adding corn sugar for carbonation you are adding MORE sugar to the mix than you really think you are just because of the attenuation % difference of said yeast. That was my thinking when discussing just adding a champagne yeast.

Cheers
Jay

I don't think we're talking at the same issues. Attenuation is more complicated than what you've outlined.

Champange yeast can only (to my knowledge) ferment simple sugars(sucrose, glucose, fructose, etc). These are the exact sugars that Brewer's yeast consume first.

After you pitch your sacc, it eats through the simple sugars first, then it moves on to start breaking down maltose and finally moves on to maltotriose, which is typically the most complex sugar it can ferment (some siason strains notwithstanding). Brewer's yeast varies it isn't ability to ferment maltotriose, which is a large part of why different strains of Brewer's yeast have different levels of attenuation. Some are better at it than others and since it's the last sugar source the yeast can use, some strains can attenuate further than others when given identical worts.

The reason brewers yeast consume simple sugars first is because it's easier to synthesize ATP from those sources. After those sources are consumed, the yeast must activate additional pathways to break down the more complicated types of sugar and process them into ATP. This is all from the book Yeast, by White.

That's why I'm very confused when people say, be careful when you add wine/champagne yeast, it'll tear through tons of fermentables. If you pitched brewers yeast first, any simple sugars (which make up about 14% of the fermentables is a typical wort)will be gone, regardless of whether yeast health causes the sacc to stall on the more complicate maltose (about 59% of the fermentables) or maltotriose. Adding champagne yeast is not a good way to restart a stuck fermentation, precisely because you'd be adding it to a wort with no simple sugars present.

If you add it at bottling time, the only sugar sources it should be able to ferment is the simple sugar adding for priming, regardless of whether the fermentation was stuck or not.

 

[Evilbuck]

Those temps are not unreasonable. I know I've heard interviews with a couple pros that keep their conditioning rooms in the 70's.
When you pop one open are they still completely flat or have they built up at least some pressure?

A slight hiss, but flat beers. I repitched about 2/3rds with champagne yeast this week, one bottle was fully carbed when I opened it. I decided to see how the others will play out with a little more time.

 

[Jaybird]

I don't think we're talking at the same issues. Attenuation is more complicated than what you've outlined.

Champange yeast can only (to my knowledge) ferment simple sugars(sucrose, glucose, fructose, etc). These are the exact sugars that Brewer's yeast consume first.

After you pitch your sacc, it eats through the simple sugars first, then it moves on to start breaking down maltose and finally moves on to maltotriose, which is typically the most complex sugar it can ferment (some siason strains notwithstanding). Brewer's yeast varies it isn't ability to ferment maltotriose, which is a large part of why different strains of Brewer's yeast have different levels of attenuation. Some are better at it than others and since it's the last sugar source the yeast can use, some strains can attenuate further than others when given identical worts.

The reason brewers yeast consume simple sugars first is because it's easier to synthesize ATP from those sources. After those sources are consumed, the yeast must activate additional pathways to break down the more complicated types of sugar and process them into ATP. This is all from the book Yeast, by White.

That's why I'm very confused when people say, be careful when you add wine/champagne yeast, it'll tear through tons of fermentables. If you pitched brewers yeast first, any simple sugars (which make up about 14% of the fermentables is a typical wort)will be gone, regardless of whether yeast health causes the sacc to stall on the more complicate maltose (about 59% of the fermentables) or maltotriose. Adding champagne yeast is not a good way to restart a stuck fermentation, precisely because you'd be adding it to a wort with no simple sugars present.

If you add it at bottling time, the only sugar sources it should be able to ferment is the simple sugar adding for priming, regardless of whether the fermentation was stuck or not.

Not gonna argue the science behind your post on paper. Very informative.

Cheers
Jay

 

[ncbrewer]

hannibalmdq: Thanks for the detailed explanation.

 

[AlexM40]

A slight hiss, but flat beers. I repitched about 2/3rds with champagne yeast this week, one bottle was fully carbed when I opened it. I decided to see how the others will play out with a little more time.

How'd you do the repitching? Did you rehydrate? And how much per bottle?

 

[Evilbuck]

How'd you do the repitching? Did you rehydrate? And how much per bottle?

About half a packet of champagne yeast rehydrated in about 8oz of distilled water. I used a straw to transfer the yeast to each bottle by sticking the straw in the yeast slurry, capping the end with my thumb, and letting go in the bottle. I would get about an inch of slurry in each straw.

 

[AlexM40]

About half a packet of champagne yeast rehydrated in about 8oz of distilled water. I used a straw to transfer the yeast to each bottle by sticking the straw in the yeast slurry, capping the end with my thumb, and letting go in the bottle. I would get about an inch of slurry in each straw.

Thanks, that's what I'll be doing to.

 

[JosephN]

Man I've had the same issue with my 9.2% beer, but I used dry yeast during my primary, I actually filtered my beer at bottling with a 3-5 micron filter (which is the size of the yeast cells according to Jamil Z), and it finally carbed, but only as much as a English beer. I personally like to have my ipas and pale ales about 2.5-2.8 Volumes of co2 (depending on the calculator you use), or .60-.80 oz of corn sugar per gallon. So with 5 gallons that would put me at minimum 3oz and up to 4oz. So where I'm no help really I would let you know that my normal ipas (5-7.5%) would have 3-4oz of corn sugar in them for 5 gallons, "no matter the highest fermentation temp". My highest temp gets to 75-80F taking into account my Diacetyl rest and saisons.