How come...

[Biscuits]

With all of the rage about water chemistry and water profiles, yadda, yadda, yadda...I never see water profile information included with recipes?

It may be the DFH Indian Brown in all it wonder in me, but how come this is not a standard part of the recipe?

 

[smurfjuice]

I would think that if in doubt of your water, use bottled water ... works for me.

 

[Biscuits]

That's not the point though. Water profile essentially makes the beer...so why not post it with recipe?

 

[Saboral]

View attachment ImageUploadedByHome Brew1439260316.105739.jpg

 

[Zuljin]

Zuljin's water report.

It's wet.

 

[jekeane]

A lot of people don't mess with their water. Many others just use RO and don't adjust or use something like yoopers primer. Still others use the presets for brun or ezwater and expect thats what others are doing.

If I were to guess a large portion of the all grain brewers on hbt do bother with water at all yet. I just finished helping with prejudging for a 600+ beer competition and a 3rd of the entries haven't figured out temperature control is a thing; never mind, water additions.

 

[Sammy86]

Remember everyone has different water therefore creating different water profiles...with my limited knowledge of water profiles I would think its difficult for some Brewers to create an exact water profile of another brewer just my .02

 

[GuldTuborg]

I see water profiles and recommendations with a fair bit of regularity in modern recipes.

 

[Biscuits]

A lot of people don't mess with their water. Many others just use RO and don't adjust or use something like yoopers primer. Still others use the presets for brun or ezwater and expect thats what others are doing.

If I were to guess a large portion of the all grain brewers on hbt do bother with water at all yet. I just finished helping with prejudging for a 600+ beer competition and a 3rd of the entries haven't figured out temperature control is a thing; never mind, water additions.

Wow! Really? I am always intimidated by contests and have never entered because I felt that there is no way I am even close to creating an award winning beer...but some of these people just go for it huh?

Remember everyone has different water therefore creating different water profiles...with my limited knowledge of water profiles I would think its difficult for some Brewers to create an exact water profile of another brewer just my .02

True. Everyone does have different water but that is why we change the water so that it has certain levels of ions we desire which promote different features and tastes in the beer. Where your water starts doesn't really matter as much as what you change it to be.

I see water profiles and recommendations with a fair bit of regularity in modern recipes.

Where?

 

[Psylocide]

I think targeting a suggested water profile for style is going to be good enough for most.

If the brewer thinks that it needs to be a certain way, then they'll likely include that info (if they adjust water).

But, yes, I have seen a few recipes in the recipe section that do include target water profiles.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Where?

Lots of places. More often than not, it's in the form of a recommended profile or general approach to treating water, but sometimes it's pretty precise.

Are there some styles or whatever you're looking for in particular? I could probably find good examples for most any request.

 

[kh54s10]

Well, in most cases I think the information would be basically useless. In my neighborhood my municipal water is reported to be very good. 14 miles away another municipality is reported to have pretty bad water....

What you start from would be very different from someone else's water. So unless you are using the same water to start from...............

 

[The_Bishop]

Since I brew with RO water, I'll generally include the mineral profiles in my recipes.

 

[Zuljin]

Why people jack with water.
To do more in the hobby.
Control freaks.
Make a beer exactly like it's "supposed to be".

Why people don't jack with water.
To experience the beer as it's made in their local.
Don't know how.
Too lazy.

 

[kh54s10]

Why people jack with water.
To do more in the hobby.
Control freaks.
Make a beer exactly like it's "supposed to be".

Why people don't jack with water.
To experience the beer as it's made in their local.
Don't know how.
Too lazy.

For me it is more that I get really good results from my municipal water. I have not made the step to send a sample of water to Ward Labs to be analysed. I haven't felt the need yet to spend the money on a pH meter etc.

I don't know how far off some styles are due to my water....

I don't know how... but that is because I have not tried yet.

I am not too lazy, it just hasn't come to the top of the list yet.

 

[Biscuits]

Well, in most cases I think the information would be basically useless. In my neighborhood my municipal water is reported to be very good. 14 miles away another municipality is reported to have pretty bad water....

What you start from would be very different from someone else's water. So unless you are using the same water to start from...............

I don't think it would be useless. If someone were to post what their Chloride, Calcium, pH, what-have-you, of the water used to brew...it doesn't matter that you use different water because you could adjust your water to match the brewers.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I don't think it would be useless. If someone were to post what their Chloride, Calcium, pH, what-have-you, of the water used to brew...it doesn't matter that you use different water because you could adjust your water to match the brewers.

This. Recipes don't list water additions, they list targets.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't think it would be useless. If someone were to post what their Chloride, Calcium, pH, what-have-you, of the water used to brew...it doesn't matter that you use different water because you could adjust your water to match the brewers.

Only if you knew their water chemistry and thus the adjustments they made and why.

If you knew they added 5 grams of calcium and 10 grams of X it would not really tell you anything other than that they added it.

 

[smurfjuice]

That's not the point though. Water profile essentially makes the beer...so why not post it with recipe?

Oh ...

 

[GuldTuborg]

Only if you knew their water chemistry and thus the adjustments they made and why.

If you knew they added 5 grams of calcium and 10 grams of X it would not really tell you anything other than that they added it.

No. Read my earlier post. You don't have to know their water (before additions), you have to know yours.

 

[TheMadKing]

I'm assuming by water profiles, you mean exact ppm of each mineral in the brewing water?

Water profiles don't necessarily "make" the beer. A good beer can be made (the same recipe in fact) using a wide variation of mineral content as long as they are within a reasonable range for each mineral. There are, of course, certain styles that have water requirements such as pilsners, but you can make a good pilsner with 40 ppm calcium instead of the 8 that occurs in the water in pilsen.

 

[kh54s10]

I don't think it would be useless. If someone were to post what their Chloride, Calcium, pH, what-have-you, of the water used to brew...it doesn't matter that you use different water because you could adjust your water to match the brewers.

Oh, I see now that you are saying that they post the chemistry of the water and the additions that they made.

If so it might help. If only the additions they made were noted that would not give you any useful information.

I have seen some recipes that state 10 gallons of Pittsburgh water, 10 grams calcium etc. If you didn't know the chemistry of the Pittsburgh water the rest does you no good.

I don't have my local water chemistry so if I see a recipe that has chemical additions I just ignore them.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Oh, I see now that you are saying that they post the chemistry of the water and the additions that they made.

Generally, no. Some old but detailed recipes do. Most of the time, you get a water profile like this:

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Bicarbonate
90.0 ppm 11.0 ppm 37.0 ppm 84.0 ppm 57.0 ppm 76.0 ppm

It's up to you to determine:
1) What your water has in it, and
2) What additions you need to get to that target profile.

It's just that: a target. Nothing about the additions they used. Just where you want to get for the recipe as originally brewed. No more, no less.

Here is an example. Look at the water profile in the recipe.

 

[kh54s10]

Generally, no. Some old but detailed recipes do. Most of the time, you get a water profile like this:

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Bicarbonate
90.0 ppm 11.0 ppm 37.0 ppm 84.0 ppm 57.0 ppm 76.0 ppm

It's up to you to determine:
1) What your water has in it, and
2) What additions you need to get to that target profile.

It's just that: a target. Nothing about the additions they used. Just where you want to get for the recipe as originally brewed. No more, no less.

Here is an example. Look at the water profile in the recipe.

Ok, Well, I have only seen a couple that were given that way. Most re:

x lbs base grain
x lbs c-40
x lbs munich
10 grams calcium
1 ounce Cascade 60 min
1 ounce Centennial 10 min.

Something like that. It shows a calcium addition but does not show the water so.......

If it doesn't go into detail on the local water... Useless......

 

[GuldTuborg]

Something like that. It shows a calcium addition but does not show the water so.......

If it doesn't go into detail on the local water... Useless......

That's exactly why you don't see recipes like that anymore (at least, not from reputable sources); it's not very helpful. Listing the profile of the water used is far more common now, as it's actually good for something.

 

[Biscuits]

Generally, no. Some old but detailed recipes do. Most of the time, you get a water profile like this:

Calcium Magnesium Sodium Sulfate Chloride Bicarbonate
90.0 ppm 11.0 ppm 37.0 ppm 84.0 ppm 57.0 ppm 76.0 ppm

It's up to you to determine:
1) What your water has in it, and
2) What additions you need to get to that target profile.

It's just that: a target. Nothing about the additions they used. Just where you want to get for the recipe as originally brewed. No more, no less.

This is exactly what I mean.

 

[Yooper]

Here's what I have in the recipe database for my oatmeal stout:

7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
10.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.68 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 31.6 IBU

1 Pkgs British Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1335)


Water was
Ca: 84
Mg: 26
Na 9
SO4 45
Cl 62
HCO3 228

 

[kh54s10]

Here's what I have in the recipe database for my oatmeal stout:

7 lbs Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 63.64 %
1 lbs Oats, Flaked (1.0 SRM) Grain 9.09 %
12.0 oz Victory Malt (25.0 SRM) Grain 6.82 %
10.0 oz Chocolate malt (pale) (200.0 SRM) Grain 5.68 %
8.0 oz Barley, Flaked (1.7 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Black Barley (Stout) (500.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
8.0 oz Caramel/Crystal Malt - 80L (80.0 SRM) Grain 4.55 %
2.0 oz Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 1.14 %
2.00 oz Williamette [4.80 %] (60 min) Hops 31.6 IBU

1 Pkgs British Ale II (Wyeast Labs #1335)





Water was
Ca: 84
Mg: 26
Na 9
SO4 45
Cl 62
HCO3 228

Now I am going to have to get a water analysis done........

 

[GuldTuborg]

Now I am going to have to get a water analysis done........

If you're on city water, just call your local plant. They've paid the money to track this stuff already.

 

[kh54s10]

If you're on city water, just call your local plant. They've paid the money to track this stuff already.

I might try that. They send an analysis every year. It has a lot of information on what contaminants are present.... But not much useful for brewing.

 

[GuldTuborg]

I might try that. They send an analysis every year. It has a lot of information on what contaminants are present.... But not much useful for brewing.

Yeah, that kind of data never makes the usual brochures (it's generally about safety issues), but they invariably have it.

My local plant, if you call them and say "Hey, I'm a homebrewer!" they have a specific list of stuff they read off. Apparently, it's a common enough request they keep the info we need at hand.

 

[Yooper]

Yeah, that kind of data never makes the usual brochures (it's generally about safety issues), but they invariably have it.

My local plant, if you call them and say "Hey, I'm a homebrewer!" they have a specific list of stuff they read off. Apparently, it's a common enough request they keep the info we need at hand.

Mine said, "Don't worry, little lady. Your water is plenty safe."

I said, "No, I need to know the chloride, sulfate, and alkalinity."

He said, "I told you that IT"S PLENTY SAFE!" and hung up.

 

[GuldTuborg]

Mine said, "Don't worry, little lady. Your water is plenty safe."

I said, "No, I need to know the chloride, sulfate, and alkalinity."

He said, "I told you that IT"S PLENTY SAFE!" and hung up.

Seriously? That's both uninformative and astoundingly rude.

 

[Yooper]

Seriously? That's both uninformative and astoundingly rude.

yes, it was.

Luckily, Ward Labs was only like $16 for the household minerals test back then, and I sent a sample. That was about 7(?) years ago. I ended up later buying an RO water system for my brewery so it was really helpful in the end- it confirmed what I suspected about my water all along.

 

[Tin4]

Mine said, "Don't worry, little lady. Your water is plenty safe."

I said, "No, I need to know the chloride, sulfate, and alkalinity."

He said, "I told you that IT"S PLENTY SAFE!" and hung up.

Did you call back and raise hell?

 

[GuldTuborg]

I've been thinking, Yooper. Can you imagine how much money your local plant could save in promotional materials and research time if they just sent out a flier that read:

Your water...
IT'S PLENTY SAFE

 

[Tin4]

i get a letter from the city all the time. "Listen. There's some issues with your water, but only if you drink it over long periods".

I try to chug it as a consequence.

 

[SnakeRidge]

i get a letter from the city all the time. "Listen. There's some issues with your water, but only if you drink it over long periods".

I try to chug it as a consequence.

Wait, why are you drinking the water before it's beer? Is that like chewing a couple grains of barley before you brew, like sniffing the package of hops? I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread, just having trouble understanding why you would drink water with nothing in it?

 

[Tin4]

Wait, why are you drinking the water before it's beer? Is that like chewing a couple grains of barley before you brew, like sniffing the package of hops? I'm sorry if this has been covered in another thread, just having trouble understanding why you would drink water with nothing in it?

I do eat torrified grains. Those things are delicious!