Hot Hot Ground?

[andrewprime1]

I want to convert to a single element, single vessel system but I think I may be limited right off the bat by what I have coming out of the wall.

My house is old, and has a 240 outlet with only three wires, H-H-G (pictured below)

The solutions I have seen on here involving a spa panel seem to all require you to start with a neutral wire, not a ground... I have, after lots of searching, been unable to find someone in the same boat as I am.

The distance between my panel and the outlet means that running a new 10/4 line would be pretty expensive. What are my options? Is there any safety concern simply fishing a single 10g sheathed wire through the conduit along side the 10/3 to make a 10/4? Then I could install a new outlet and use my inline GFCI safely, right?

 

[AnOldUR]

As long as you don't draw 120V off that line and only use it for your 240V heating element, you'll be fine with that and a spa panel or in-line GFCI.

Use another 120V circuit with GFCI for you lower voltage needs.


edit:
If that says 12/2 on the wire, you're limited to 20 amps or a max of 4500 watts.

Seems strange for a dryer outlet. Should be 10ga.

 

[h22lude]

If this is an outlet install for a dryer, it should be HHN not HHG.

You have a few options. You can install a 30A GFCI breaker. You can buy an inline GFCI cord. You can build a spa panel. You wouldn't have to go to 4 wire as long as the 240V circuit isn't pulling 120V as well.

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I have the same setup.Spa panel hooked to dryer with 6 ft dryer cord.25 ft 10G harbor freight extention cord coming out of the spa panel going to control panel.works like a champ

 

[andrewprime1]

It is a plug for a dryer, yeah. I guess where I'm getting tripped up is it looks like the wire in the middle is just bare copper. I was under the impression that neutral would have its own sheathing. Maybe I'll have another look.

 

[andrewprime1]

I have the same setup.Spa panel hooked to dryer with 6 ft dryer cord.25 ft 10G harbor freight extention cord coming out of the spa panel going to control panel.works like a champ

I have always been a bit unclear on this. Is the spa panel in your set up literally plugged into the dryer outlet?

 

[JONNYROTTEN]

I have always been a bit unclear on this. Is the spa panel in your set up literally plugged into the dryer outlet?

The bare wire you think is ground most likely has 120 going to it on a 30 amp 3 wire line. Yes spa panel gets plugged directly into the dryer outlet.Buy a 3 wire dryer cord.One side connected to spa panel,one side plugged into dryer outlet while brewing.

 

[raouliii]

It is a plug for a dryer, yeah. I guess where I'm getting tripped up is it looks like the wire in the middle is just bare copper. I was under the impression that neutral would have its own sheathing. Maybe I'll have another look.

A neutral normally should be sheathed. The only way to really tell is to determine which buss bar it's connected to in the panel. The ground and neutral buss's are jumpered together in the main panel.

The bare wire you think is ground most likely has 120 going to it on a 30 amp 3 wire line.....

I can't imagine that bare copper wire having 120vac on it. It is most likely at a ground potential.


As AnOldUR mentioned, the 12AWG feeding the dryer outlet will limit the OP to 20amps.

 

[augiedoggy]

It is a plug for a dryer, yeah. I guess where I'm getting tripped up is it looks like the wire in the middle is just bare copper. I was under the impression that neutral would have its own sheathing. Maybe I'll have another look.

Yes its a bare wire because someone cheated and used 20a 12\2 wire for a 30a outlet... That is an example of a possible fire condition. Since its 12\2 wire someone just used the ground wire at the nuetral... It really doesn't matter they are the same size... What does matter is the 30a outlet and possibly 30a breaker in the panel...if it is a 30a breaker you need to replace it with a 20a one as that's a fire hazard. Or replace the line with the correct 10awg stuff.

 

[satph]

What size breaker is it attached to in the panel? 20 amp or 30 amp?

What does the cover for the outlet look like, are there three blades, or two blades and an L (is it a 10-20 or a 10-30)

The wire in your picture says 12/2 NM + ground. You say your house is old, and the PVC jacketed wire wasn't available until the 1960s, so is it safe to assume this was installed after the house was built? As already mentioned, if it's 12 gauge wire, you should have a 20 amp breaker on the circuit. Also, the white wire is hot, and should be marked as such (red or black), and not left white.

It was acceptable to ground a dryer through the neutral wire prior to 1996. According to this thread, it was never code compliant to wire a 10-30 outlet with 10/2+ground wire, but it was done frequently.

 

[augiedoggy]

What size breaker is it attached to in the panel? 20 amp or 30 amp?

What does the cover for the outlet look like, are there three blades, or two blades and an L (is it a 10-20 or a 10-30)

The wire in your picture says 12/2 NM + ground. You say your house is old, and the PVC jacketed wire wasn't available until the 1960s, so is it safe to assume this was installed after the house was built? As already mentioned, if it's 12 gauge wire, you should have a 20 amp breaker on the circuit. Also, the white wire is hot, and should be marked as such (red or black), and not left white.

It was acceptable to ground a dryer through the neutral wire prior to 1996. According to this thread, it was never code compliant to wire a 10-30 outlet with 10/2+ground wire, but it was done frequently.

good catch... I saw the middle connector have a short side to it so it would accept the 30a Lshaped prong but forgot that the actual cover could have been the deciding factor and the pictured part could be universal...I just bought a male 10-30 plug that had both versions of the middle prong in the kit for 125v or 250v? In any case since the middle connector has this provision its safe to say its not the smaller 20a version right?

I assumed most electric 220v dryers were 30a but never owned one myself.

 

[andrewprime1]

Here is the pug and outlet cover. Noted, I will go with a 4500w element instead. I will check the breaker also, I think it is a 20amp.

 

[h22lude]

Here is the pug and outlet cover. Noted, I will go with a 4500w element instead. I will check the breaker also, I think it is a 20amp.

If the breaker is 20A, you are fine with the #12 wire but that wouldn't be able to run a dryer so it is weird to have that outlet.

A 4500W element will still need a 30A breaker per code. If you have continuous load, you can only use 80% of the rated current. One can argue that an element won't be on for a straight 3 hours but if you are going to wire a new outlet, might as well put in the bigger breaker.

I think either way you will need to run new wires. I would say run a 50A breaker. This way you can put in a few different outlets.

 

[augiedoggy]

If the breaker is 20A, you are fine with the #12 wire but that wouldn't be able to run a dryer so it is weird to have that outlet.

A 4500W element will still need a 30A breaker per code. If you have continuous load, you can only use 80% of the rated current. One can argue that an element won't be on for a straight 3 hours but if you are going to wire a new outlet, might as well put in the bigger breaker.
And I can see by the picture youhave other 120v outlets nearby on another circuit so you should be ok as long as your control panel doesnt power any pumps or anything. (timer and pids only draw about 1/2 amp so nothing to worry about there)

I think either way you will need to run new wires. I would say run a 50A breaker. This way you can put in a few different outlets.

actually the 80% rule is only for devices operating at full draw for over 3hrs continuously...so unless your using one 4500w element to heat up 50 gallons thats not gonna happen. your talking full power for 30-45minutes to heat up 15 gallons to 165 for mashing and maybe 20 mins to bring the boil kettle to a boil afterwards. the rest is all partial power draws (or full power in very short bursts).
So the 12g would be cutting it close but should work in a pinch for one 4500w element...I have three (only use 2) and the most power hungry of the uses 18.2 amps the weakest uses 17.4amps.
But that is a 30a outlet (and dryer judging by the plug) and not the 20a version (which means you likely have a 30a breaker in your panel) so your lucky you never had any issues those wires were likely pretty warm with a dryer running.. The house across the street from me burned up pretty bad about 10 years ago from someone running an ac unit on a wimpy extension cord...they were home and said the house went up in flames pretty quick. (after using it this way for a couple years) If I were you I would check the wiring in any other larger circuits you have to make sure they are also not a fire hazard waiting to happen... someone did not know what they were doing when they wired that outlet.

 

[h22lude]

actually the 80% rule is only for devices operating at full draw for over 3hrs continuously...so unless your using one 4500w element to heat up 50 gallons thats not gonna happen. your talking full power for 30-45minutes to heat up 15 gallons to 165 for mashing and maybe 20 mins to bring the boil kettle to a boil afterwards. the rest is all partial power draws (or full power in very short bursts).
So the 12g would be cutting it close but should work in a pinch for one 4500w element...I have three (only use 2) and the most power hungry of the uses 18.2 amps the weakest uses 17.4amps.
But that is a 30a outlet (and dryer judging by the plug) and not the 20a version so your lucky you never had any issues those wires were likely pretty warm with a dryer running.. the house across the street from me burned up pretty bad about 10 years ago from someone running an ac unit on a wimpy extension cord...they were home and said the house went up in flames pretty quick. (after using it this way for a couple years)

Read my second paragraph. That's exactly what I said lol. I personally wouldn't chance it especially if he needs to rewire it anyway. I would use 30A #10 wire and get a 5500w element. The 4500w element will draw almost 19A.

 

[augiedoggy]

Read my second paragraph. That's exactly what I said lol. I personally wouldn't chance it especially if he needs to rewire it anyway. I would use 30A #10 wire and get a 5500w element. The 4500w element will draw almost 19A.

Well there is a big difference between something that runs for 3 hrs and something that runs at full load drawing 100% power for 3 hrs... and yes, I did miss your second paragraph about the 120v outlets... (the dryer for example may only draw like 23amps for the first second or so on motor startup and then draw under 20amps while running but still require the 30a outlet by code...)

If he is going to continue to use a 30a dryer on that outlet then yes I totally agree but as far as powering one 4500w element he is actually ok if he changes the breaker to a 20a one and marks the outlet to indicate so...

and a 5500w element is really overkill for 5 or 10 gallon batches... a 4500w is actually a better match to those sizes and less likely to scorch on high gravity brews... I had a very vigerous boil on 11.5 gallons yesterday with my 4500w element at 73% on the manual mode on my pid... Plenty of power there..
5500w are cheaper and easier to find and most always have the bigger is better mindset... Then again read through all the threads where people are complaining of scorching on heavier beers with them...

and I guess you missed were I stated I have 3 4500w elements and they draw between 17.4 and 18.2 amps at full draw?? in reality the elements are usually a few hundred watts under the max rated power... the 1000w element I have only draws 3.9amps as well... and 5500w elements usually draw about 22-23amps max but sometimes as little as 20-21.

 

[h22lude]

I agree, he will be OK with 20A for that 1 element. Id probably rewire with at least #10 or even go #6 just to have that option. Run a spa panel off that and have a few extra outlets. If rewiring isn't something you want to do, change that to a 20A outlet and use it

 

[andrewprime1]

I definitely want to do this set up as safe as possible, but this is also a rental house with four months left on the lease. I'm not looking to upgrade their janky wiring. But, the breaker is definitely 20a, that's 12 gauge wire, and people are saying I should be fine with a 4500w element. I may go with it!

I was thinking this one: Camco 4500W - Ultra Low Watt Density https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YU2YS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I will invest in a solid wiring at my next place (which I'll own hopefully)

 

[AnOldUR]

I definitely want to do this set up as safe as possible ...

GFCI, Inline, 20 A

I just happen to have one of these. Where are you located?

 

[andrewprime1]

GFCI, Inline, 20 A

I just happen to have one of these. Where are you located?

I am in Salt Lake City, UT. But I would be very interested if the price was right! I would pay shipping too

 

[AnOldUR]

I would be very interested if the price was right!

How does $35 (that includes shipping) and a beer (if I ever make it out to Salt Lake City ) sound?

If good, PM me your PayPal email and street address and I'll send you a request for money.

Here's what I have. New in pack. Never opened. It's the same part number as the link above.

 

[augiedoggy]

I definitely want to do this set up as safe as possible, but this is also a rental house with four months left on the lease. I'm not looking to upgrade their janky wiring. But, the breaker is definitely 20a, that's 12 gauge wire, and people are saying I should be fine with a 4500w element. I may go with it!

I was thinking this one: Camco 4500W - Ultra Low Watt Density https://www.amazon.com/dp/B0002YU2YS/?tag=skimlinks_replacement-20

I will invest in a solid wiring at my next place (which I'll own hopefully)

I use the same element in my boil kettle, only its also sold as an "ace hardware" store brand element but they are made by the same people who make them for camco. I picked mine up new in packaging for about $15 a piece on eBay just over a year ago so they can be found pretty cheap.