Hops utilization with bags?

[ckelly999]

Hi all,

I'm about to brew and I've decided to use cheesecloth bags to contain my whole hops during the boil; the bags are loosely packed. Will this affect the hop utilization? If so, any idea as to the percent I should add to correct?

Thanks for all responses.

CK

 

[ckelly999]

Disregard, I found the answer elsewhere in the forum. HBT rocks!!

 

[Singletrack]

Disregard, I found the answer elsewhere in the forum. HBT rocks!!

But now it seems you are obligated to answer your own question here on the forum. Don't blame me. You started it.

 

[day_trippr]

^ Relevant Fact

Cheers!

 

[ckelly999]

"The rule of thumb is a 10% reduction in utilization. So not a huge difference either way."

Mea culpa.

 

[Foosier]

"The rule of thumb is a 10% reduction in utilization. So not a huge difference either way."

Mea culpa.

Please do not quote this as there is no science to back this up.

 

[ckelly999]

Sorry, the quote was from the post where I found my answer, i was asked to post it to this thread.

 

[dbrewski]

Just to weigh in, I am interested in this question and the answer. I am curious about hop utilization in bags, or hop spiders, or free floating in the wort. Sounds like a good experiment for someone else. But my observation would be that yes, there is a reduction in utilization. I used to use hop bags or a hop spider (cloth) for everything. But the 60 minute bag, and often others, would clog up with crud to the point that wort was not flowing very well through them. So I used to mush them around with a spoon trying to get wort in/out.

Now I mostly just toss in the hops for the 60 min addition, then bag any hops under 15 min. Or use a french press with hops in it for the flavor additions. I mostly use pellet hops.

 

[Jeffinn]

Please do not quote this as there is no science to back this up.

He didnt post it as a scientific fact, he posted it as a "rule of thumb". Alot of whats posted here is not based on science. That doesn't mean the post are of no value.

 

[Foosier]

He didnt post it as a scientific fact, he posted it as a "rule of thumb". Alot of whats posted here is not based on science. That doesn't mean the post are of no value.

I understand. I certainly don't want to be rude, even if I failed. Please accept my apology for the short response.

That being said, my point (and I was far more clear about this when I responded to the originator of this "rule of thumb") is that it is dangerous to say things like "rule of thumb" in a situation like this when there is no proof. I'd love to see a study to know if there is or is not an effect myself as I use bags. The problem is that soon a "rule of thumb" can take on urban legend status and then we are left with these beliefs that won't go away. Beliefs like aluminum pots lead to alzheimers (complete bunk), over crushing your grains causes astringency due to tannin extraction (proved to be false), Matching the water of a historical brewing region is more important than knowing your PH (wrong and leads to bad beer). In this thread the OP, through no fault of his own, quoted someone and brought that knowledge here as if it was fact. We just need to be careful doing this.

To that point, be sure you do some research yourselves. I googled this topic and could find nothing to prove this "rule of thumb". Most of the threads point to lower utilization only when you pack your hop bag so full the hops can not float freely in the bag. Beyond that I can't figure where it came from or whose "rule" this is. Generally, if it is an accepted practice there will be information available like articles, calculators, etc. This has nothing of the sort.

Sorry for the soap box moment, brew on!

 

[masskrug]

What if you take your spoon and vigorously stir the hop bag once in awhile. Does that help?

 

[mbobhat]

I just did a porter using paint strainer (large) bags to hold the leaf hops in. It seemed they had plenty of wort flowing through. My kettle was at a slight angle from the ground and I had a pretty strong boil, I poked a little hole in the top, put my mash paddle through it and suspended it through my kettle handles. It seemed that the slight angle created a decent and strong flow through the bag pretty hard. I doubt I'll have a loss of efficiency. I would guess that If I used more than a couple oz's then I would be forced to find a way to keep the bag submerged, maybe adding a grate over the top would be a starting guess.

I think the key is to make sure the flow is going pretty well and you'll be fine.

 

[Singletrack]

Ha! As I expected, the answer is not as easy as the OP thought.

The only solution: Let your hops roam free! It's cruel to confine them.

Brewers for the Ethical Treatment of Hops (BETH)

 

[Jeffinn]

Ha! As I expected, the answer is not as easy as the OP thought.

The only solution: Let your hops roam free! It's cruel to confine them.

Brewers for the Ethical Treatment of Hops (BETH)

LOL! Im a card carrying member of BETH!

 

[Jeffinn]

I understand. I certainly don't want to be rude, even if I failed. Please accept my apology for the short response

No worries Foosier. I did look around online and I found numbers from 10% to 35%. None of those responses had any data to back up the claims. Hence the whole "rule of thumb" thing.
As brewers its great to rely on scientific knowledge. But we all occasionally rely on opinions and advice without scientific data as well.
When I see anything quoted as "rule of thumb" I automatically assume that the opinion is based on someones interpretation of specific results that they've obtained over the course of their brewing sessions.
I take "word of mouth" and "rule of thumb" with a "grain of salt".
You weren't rude and no apologies were needed!
Brew on brother!

 

[day_trippr]

I confess that I'm a dunker when it comes to kettle hops.

I bag hops 'cuz I haven't gotten 'round to buying an SS spider, and I don't want to tempt fate with my plate chiller. And whether home grown cones in muslin bags or store-bought pellets in nylon paint strainer bags, I can't go three minutes without picking a bag up with a pair of tongs and letting the wort drain out before plopping it back in the kettled and moving to the next bag. Some batches I end up with four bags in the bk at flame-out and I'm constantly dunking.

Intuitively, there has to be an increase in utilization as opposed to just letting a bag of hops lay there steeping.
Dunking definitely makes a difference with my tea

Cheers!

 

[beersk]

What if you take your spoon and vigorously stir the hop bag once in awhile. Does that help?

I don't know if it helps, but it's what I do. Can't hurt, is what I'm thinking.

 

[Jeffinn]

I confess that I'm a dunker when it comes to kettle hops.
Dunking definitely makes a difference with my tea
Cheers!

Im a dunker when it comes to donuts and Oreos!😀

 

[dbrewski]

I don't know if it helps, but it's what I do. Can't hurt, is what I'm thinking.

I do the same, I think it does help.

 

[ckelly999]

I think the key is to make sure the flow is going pretty well and you'll be fine.

I only use whole hops, and I loosely back them in cheesecloth bags. Looks to me like I'm getting plenty of flow through the bags. I typically give the bags a gentle squeeze at the end of the boil to recover some of my liquid gold.