HOPS-BOPS 2012 Results?

[dstar26t]

The EBC website says they don't have a location or finished business plan yet. It also sounds like he's still using his homebrew system as a "half barrel pilot brewing system". I wouldn't condemn his efforts just yet, until all the facts are known. Who knows what actual licensing he has if any?

 

[lovemybrew]

From their website:
EBC Black IPA takes Gold at the 2012 National Homebrew Competition!

Head brewer Dennis Decker has been entering Elsinore beers in Homebrew Competitions to get feedback from BJCP certified beer judges.

Our beer has colleted dozens of 1st place medals and placed in the top 4 "Best of Show" multiple times.

So..... if the national homebrew competition allowed it....

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

I think this comes down to trying to judge intention. If you go by the letter of the law for the AHA guidelines, then he would be disq. as he is using the comps for feedback on pilot batches as he states. Which is very clear in the rules. I guess I don't have a problem with what he is doing, but if they find that he broke the rules, then he broke the rules. I think there is a grey area on this one and he is firmly in the middle of it. I don't envy the competition organizer on how to handle it. How do you go back and change BOS awards after the fact? I don't think you can.

As far as the NHC, I am sure they had no idea what was going on, so they had no way to do anything about it. I bet if they knew beforehand, they would have disq him.

A partner and I were working on a business plan earlier this year and I was working on pilot batches for the brewery. I didn't enter any of those in competition, even though I was using the same equipment that I have always used. I guess I felt that if I was doing it to open a pro brewery then I wasn't really doing it in the spirit of amateur or home brewing. Our main investor fell through on the brewery though, so I'm back to pure home brewing.

 

[rexbanner]

What's the dif? Guy doesn't have a license. Ask the U.S. gov what qualifies as homebrew. Doesn't matter your intentions, your equipment, whatever. It's the license. No license = homebrew. There is no magical advantage this guy has anyways. Give him his medals.

Although if he entered ten entries or something, I think that would be kinda lame.

 

[jeremy0209]

Ha, you haven't entered the BUZZ Boneyard Brewoff then. It took them like a week one year.

Interesting....this guy, Dennis, was in the BUZZ Boneyard Brewoff, too. Coincidence?

 

[iBrewR]

What's the dif? ... Ask the U.S. gov what qualifies as homebrew.

The AHA is not the US Government. The AHA has stated what is and what isn't considered a homebrewer for competition purposes.

He may not be a licenced commercial brewery yet, but he has clearly stated on his website that he is brewing for commercial research. I don't see this as a grey area. Black and white!

requoted from AHA:

Your homebrew cannot have been brewed on equipment used to brew beverages for any commercial purpose, whether for commercial research, production or any other purpose, including equipment at brew-on-premises establishments.

 

[rexbanner]

The AHA is not the US Government. The AHA has stated what is and what isn't considered a homebrewer for competition purposes.

He may not be a commercial brewery yet, but he has clearly stated on his website that he is brewing for commercial research. I don't see this as a grey area. Black and white!

requoted from AHA:

Fine, then disqualify me. I'm a HOMEBREWER who plans on opening a nano eventually. I brewed my entries on the same aluminum pot I've used for the last five years, and fermented them in a plastic bucket submerged in a tub of water with a shirt over it.

Do I deserve to be disqualified because of my eventual intentions? Because I have some sort of unfair advantage? Even if I had a Sabco and five angel investors paying for my ingredients and entry fees, there's still no reason you couldn't beat me. No reason.

The way I had understood it is the reason to keep pro breweries from entering homebrew comps is 1) they make commercial beer and 2) there are competitions for them that are only open to commercial beer. Since it seems this guy doesn't have a license, he doesn't make commercial beer. So he can't enter the GABF or World Beer Cup.

Competitions should encourage competition. You want the best entries possible in the competition, because that's moving the hobby forward. This guy is obviously a talented brewer. Why exclude him?

 

[iBrewR]

Do I deserve to be disqualified because of my eventual intentions?

If you put something like this in print, yes.

Elsinore Brewing Company is a start-up Craft Brewery in the Hudson Valley Region of New York State. Siebel Institute "Concise" brewing course gradute and Head Brewer Dennis Decker is fine tuning our recipe's on our half barrel pilot brewing system as we put together our 15 barrel system and finalize the location and business plan for our commercial brewery/ brewpub. Our goal is to have our beer for sale in 2013. We will be posting updates on our progress as we go.

"Eventual intentions" are one thing. This guy has clearly crossed the line into starting a commercial business and is using Homebrew competitions as advertising. It's fine to say, "When I was a homebrewer I won these awards." Once you formally state your business intentions for advertising purposes you're no longer simply a homebrewer.

Does he make great beer? Yes.
Do I personally have any problem competing against this guy? No.
Is he breaking the rules? No doubt in my mind.

The AHA had to draw the line somewhere. He does not fall on the side of homebrewer.

 

[Dukeman9988]

I just want my score sheets back

 

[rexbanner]

If you put something like this in print, yes.

"Eventual intentions" are one thing. This guy has clearly crossed the line into starting a commercial business and is using Homebrew competitions as advertising. It's fine to say, "When I was a homebrewer I won these awards." Once you formally state your business intentions for advertising purposes you're no longer simply a homebrewer.

Does he make great beer? Yes.
Do I personally have any problem competing against this guy? No.
Is he breaking the rules? No doubt in my mind.

The AHA had to draw the line somewhere. He does not fall on the side of homebrewer.

Ok, that's kinda lame.

 

[Coff]

I just want my score sheets back

Same here.

Interesting debate, but I dont see why the scoresheets cant go out.

 

[jeremy0209]

Same here.

Interesting debate, but I dont see why the scoresheets cant go out.

My guess is that, since they're dealing with special circumstances, they haven't had time to scan and email the scoresheets. Thanks, Dennis Decker!!

 

[soonami]

Same here.

Interesting debate, but I dont see why the scoresheets cant go out.

I agree. Whether or not this guys is eligible, it doesn't change the comments on my score sheet and the reviewer comments are no more or less valid because of who entered the competition. I've score sheets usually take a couple days to arrive, so I'm fine with that.

IMO brewers should regulate themselves--brewers code and all that jazz. It's totally on the honor system. If you wanted, you could strip the labels off DFH ales or Victory Lagers and clean up in these comps. Not saying anyone is doing that, but there's really no way to know. We just have to accept that everyone that submits a beer to a competition brews it at home on their own equipment. Organizers can't hire a PI to follow everyone around to make sure everyone is following the rules, or that an infected wheat beer wasn't submitted as a sour

 

[Dukeman9988]

How about everyone here just sends me their beer and I will tell you who had the best one

 

[dfess1]

man, i am glad i didn't have anything ready to enter this comp...

 

[khugs21]

man, i am glad i didn't have anything ready to enter this comp...

And I'm regretting that I did.

 

[Coff]

Im not in the HOPS club but I subscribe to their mailing list since Im local, but Nancy just sent this out.

Hi HOPSters!

The October Meeting will be this Wednesday, the 17th, at the usual time
(after 6ish), at HSH. Should be an interesting meeting..

See ya!
Nancy

So I'm assuming that they will either have a decision made by then or settle on something that night at their meeting.

 

[soonami]

I don't think anyone should regret that they sent in entries. I was there for the beer judging part at least and that was done right. I didn't get to see score sheets, but it looked like the judges were doing a good job writing extensive comments and there were several certified judges and a couple National and Master Judges.

Organization could've been better and as you could tell from the last set of emails from Bruce, things were a little crazy near the end.

I'm planning on going to the meeting Wednesday and I'll report back any updates.

 

[Dukeman9988]

Received all of my scoresheets last night

 

[joshs]

Yeah, so did I. The problem is that half of them aren't my beers. I have contacted them to see if they can fix it.

Josh

 

[Dukeman9988]

Yeah, so did I. The problem is that half of them aren't my beers. I have contacted them to see if they can fix it.

Josh

That is very unfortunate

 

[Dukeman9988]

27.5 on my Baltic porter (wasn't quite sure where to enter it)
30 on my pumpkin ale
31.5 on my ordinary bitter

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

Got my scoresheets back also. Now I remember why I haven't entered a comp in a while. I understand the judges do the best that they can, but it is such a crapshoot. I love the comments on my IPA where one judge says it is thin and the other says it is heavy, and they both say underattenuated when it finished at 1.010. haha.

 

[MachineShopBrewing]

27.5 on my Baltic porter (wasn't quite sure where to enter it)
30 on my pumpkin ale
31.5 on my ordinary bitter

This comp seemed like one that scored really low on the curve. For some reason there are some comps that tend to score really low. It is usually these smaller comps. There is one by me that is about the same size that all the golds tend to be around 30-35 points. My IPA that I entered is a 40-45 point beer in most other comps and it scored 32 here.

IPA- 32 grassy, hoppy as hell, but they said not bitter enough and underattenuated. The beer was 74 IBU and finished at 1.010.

AM. Brown 32.5 -Overall great, but not enough hops for American. This was a hybrid recipe of mine that crossed German, English and American brown styles. Didn't expect a high score on this one, as it didn't fit great anywhere. Great beer though if you love malty browns.

RIS- 33 This one overall was good but lacked complexity. Not bad considering it is only 4 months old. One judge said a "roasted malt sweetness" is dominate in the flavor. That is a new flavor to me. I'll have to look for that.

Recipes-

Recipe: Mofo
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: Imperial Stout
TYPE: All Grain


Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.94 gal
Estimated OG: 1.110 SG
Estimated Color: 85.3 SRM
Estimated IBU: 71.1 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 70.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
3.00 lb Light Dry Extract (8.0 SRM) Dry Extract 13.33 %
12.00 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 53.33 %
1.25 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
1.25 lb Roasted Barley (500.0 SRM) Grain 5.56 %
1.00 lb Midnight Wheat (550.0 SRM) Grain 4.44 %
0.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 2.22 %
0.50 lb Special B Malt (180.0 SRM) Grain 2.22 %
28.30 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (60 min) Hops 34.5 IBU
28.00 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [12.90 %] (30 min) Hops 18.8 IBU
28.00 gm Simcoe [13.00 %] (10 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
28.00 gm Columbus (Tomahawk) [12.90 %] (10 min) Hops 8.9 IBU
1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (180.0 SRM) Sugar 4.44 %
1.00 lb Candi Sugar, Dark (90.0 SRM) Sugar 4.44 %
1.00 lb Sugar, Table (Sucrose) (1.0 SRM) Sugar 4.44 %
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Total Grain Weight: 16.50 lb
----------------------------
Single Infusion, Medium Body, Batch Sparge
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Mash In Add 20.00 qt of water at 172.9 F 156.0 F


Recipe: IPA #1 - 10 gallons
Brewer: Machine Shop Brewing Co.
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 73.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18.00 lb Pale Malt 2-Row Rahr (2.0 SRM) Grain 83.72 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.30 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6.98 %
56 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
56 gm Citra [14.50 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
56 gm Summit [18.00 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
28.00 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.7 IBU
56 gm Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
28.00 gm Citra [14.50 %] (10 min) Hops 8.7 IBU
40.00 gm Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] (10 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
40.00 gm Summit [18.00 %] (10 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
28.00 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (10 min) Hops 10.8 IBU
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 21.50 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 28.00 qt of water at 164.9 F 150.0 F



Recipe: Brown Ale #1
Brewer:
Asst Brewer:
Style: American Brown Ale
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 6.00 gal
Boil Size: 6.94 gal
Estimated OG: 1.053 SG
Estimated Color: 17.8 SRM
Estimated IBU: 24.0 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 65.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
8.75 lb Pale Malt, Maris Otter (3.0 SRM) Grain 67.05 %
2.25 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 17.24 %
0.75 lb Aromatic Malt (26.0 SRM) Grain 5.75 %
0.75 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 5.75 %
0.30 lb Chocolate Malt (450.0 SRM) Grain 2.30 %
0.25 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 60L (60.0 SRM) Grain 1.92 %
14.00 gm Magnum [11.60 %] (60 min) Hops 17.1 IBU
28.00 gm Goldings, East Kent [4.70 %] (15 min) Hops 6.9 IBU
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 13.05 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 20.00 qt of water at 167.7 F 154.0 F

 

[Driver]

Got mine back too... First time getting sheets. Nice seeing written feedback.

 

[soonami]

I got score sheets back too.

Results were interesting...

I entered a dry and wet-hopped gueuze in 23A but the judges really made little mention of the hops in that beer. Got a 38.5 in that flight. But the base beer entered as a Gueuze only scored 20.5?! I think my beer might have been mislabeled because the Judge was a grand master and mentioned that the beer might be too young and lacked brett or belgian yeast character, but this beer is a blend of 3, 2, and 1 year old lambics and is a brett bomb.

RIS got a 35.5, only good for 3rd in the category. That beer with Coffee, and Markers Mark soaked oak got a 37 and didn't place in Wood-aged!

I was surprised several of my beers were undercarbonated. This was the first time I bottle a lot of my sour beers so maybe they just needed more time. Many comments were that more carbonation would've greatly improved the beer.

 

[Dukeman9988]

I got score sheets back too.

Results were interesting...

I entered a dry and wet-hopped gueuze in 23A but the judges really made little mention of the hops in that beer. Got a 38.5 in that flight. But the base beer entered as a Gueuze only scored 20.5?! I think my beer might have been mislabeled because the Judge was a grand master and mentioned that the beer might be too young and lacked brett or belgian yeast character, but this beer is a blend of 3, 2, and 1 year old lambics and is a brett bomb.

RIS got a 35.5, only good for 3rd in the category. That beer with Coffee, and Markers Mark soaked oak got a 37 and didn't place in Wood-aged!

I was surprised several of my beers were undercarbonated. This was the first time I bottle a lot of my sour beers so maybe they just needed more time. Many comments were that more carbonation would've greatly improved the beer.

It was noted on your score sheet that you placed?

 

[soonami]

No I stayed for the awards ceremony because I was helping out at the event and they gave out ribbons to the top 3 at each category/table. I think final results should be posted soon and tee shirts/swag will be mailed out to the winners

 

[jeremy0209]

30 on my Cascade Pale Ale....the one judge wrote "good recipe" and "well made" and he gave me a 28 (he also said he detected plastic and oxidation). The other judge said "not enough hop flavor" (he said no off aromas or flavors) and he gave me a 32. Oh well, still better than BMC. Too bad I only have 15 bottles left.

 

[soonami]

Recipe: IPA #1 - 10 gallons
Brewer: Machine Shop Brewing Co.
Asst Brewer:
Style: American IPA
TYPE: All Grain
Taste: (35.0)

Recipe Specifications
--------------------------
Batch Size: 10.00 gal
Boil Size: 12.00 gal
Estimated OG: 1.061 SG
Estimated Color: 5.6 SRM
Estimated IBU: 73.2 IBU
Brewhouse Efficiency: 78.00 %
Boil Time: 60 Minutes

Ingredients:
------------
Amount Item Type % or IBU
18.00 lb Pale Malt 2-Row Rahr (2.0 SRM) Grain 83.72 %
2.00 lb Munich Malt (9.0 SRM) Grain 9.30 %
1.50 lb Caramel/Crystal Malt - 10L (10.0 SRM) Grain 6.98 %
56 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
56 gm Citra [14.50 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
56 gm Summit [18.00 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
28.00 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (60 min) Hops 29.7 IBU
56 gm Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] (Dry Hop 5 days) Hops -
28.00 gm Citra [14.50 %] (10 min) Hops 8.7 IBU
40.00 gm Amarillo Gold [10.10 %] (10 min) Hops 8.6 IBU
40.00 gm Summit [18.00 %] (10 min) Hops 15.4 IBU
28.00 gm Apollo [18.00 %] (10 min) Hops 10.8 IBU
1 Pkgs Dry English Ale (White Labs #WLP007) Yeast-Ale


Mash Schedule: My Mash
Total Grain Weight: 21.50 lb
----------------------------
My Mash
Step Time Name Description Step Temp
60 min Step Add 28.00 qt of water at 164.9 F 150.0 F

Holy hell, that's about a pound of hops in that IPA ( I know it's a double batch, but still). You must be a very rich man