Hops boiled in water, then added to the wort

[rmb]

Lately I have wanted to get all my hops boiled and ready for several batches. So I boil up 2 batches worth in water... just throw the pellets in, boil for the time to get to the IBU I want... then I strain the hop muck out.

So I end up with hop soup.

I then split the soup and use the portions for my batches as needed... freezing any leftovers.

I do this so I can just do it all at once... then when I boil up my extract I just pour in the hop soup with a short boil... or pour it in at the end

Why is this not a good idea? Just curious if there is something that I am overlooking.

 

[Teromous]

First of all it seems like extra unnecessary work. I mean if you're going to boil the beer for 60min or whatever your schedule is, why not just add the hops during that schedule? Second, I can't imagine the hops oils taste the same after going through this whole process (I wouldn't know though because I haven't tried it). Third it seems like a lot of unnecessary math which is what I dislike the most about brewing (aside from cleaning). Fourth, most of the time I don't use the same hops or brew the same style consecutively.

Are you freezing your flavor and aroma additions as well?

 

[rmb]

It actually saves me time... the next time I brew I just need to boil the LME for 15 mins.

One time I steeped all of my grains... separated them into 0.25 oz zip lock bags and froze for later... then later, again I just popped them in the LME and in no time was ready for pitching.

 

[Teromous]

Yeah but I mean it just seems like a lot of extra work for something simple. It's been a while since I've done extract but I don't recall it taking that long to steep grains. Whatever works for you though. For all-grain there's a lot of reasons why I wouldn't do this because I want to develop color in the beer, caramelize the wort, develop a good rolling boil for hot-break, reduce the large volume achieved from sparging (especially on high gravity beers), maximizing hop utilization (smaller pre-boil SG because of larger overall water volume, as well as increased boil times), etc.

 

[ktblunden]

Yeah but I mean it just seems like a lot of extra work for something simple. It's been a while since I've done extract but I don't recall it taking that long to steep grains. Whatever works for you though. For all-grain there's a lot of reasons why I wouldn't do this because I want to develop color in the beer, caramelize the wort, develop a good rolling boil for hot-break, reduce the large volume achieved from sparging (especially on high gravity beers), maximizing hop utilization (smaller pre-boil SG because of larger overall water volume, as well as increased boil times), etc.

Also driving off DMS precursors.

OP, I suppose you'll be able to bitter this way, but you won't get nearly as much flavor or aroma from the hops as you would from timed additions (60 min, 20 min, flame out, etc). Do whatever works for you, but be aware that certain styles are not going to turn out the way they would through traditional means.

 

[JoppaFarms]

I was under the impression that the sugars and pH of the wort in the boil helped to isomerize the alpha acids from the hops and gave you the finished flavor and aroma you're looking for. Wouldn't the pure water boil change the profile of the hops some?

 

[Denny]

Hops boiled in water is one of the most vile things I've ever tasted. It doesn't get any better when you add it to your beer.

 

[Denny]

Also driving off DMS precursors.

OP, I suppose you'll be able to bitter this way, but you won't get nearly as much flavor or aroma from the hops as you would from timed additions (60 min, 20 min, flame out, etc). Do whatever works for you, but be aware that certain styles are not going to turn out the way they would through traditional means.

DMS is not an issue for extract brewers.

 

[ktblunden]

DMS is not an issue for extract brewers.

I know, I was adding to the list of reasons to boil all grain the previous poster had listed.

 

[Denny]

I know, I was adding to the list of reasons to boil all grain the previous poster had listed.

Got it! Thanks for the clarification.

 

[Zamial]

I was under the impression that the sugars and pH of the wort in the boil helped to isomerize the alpha acids from the hops and gave you the finished flavor and aroma you're looking for. Wouldn't the pure water boil change the profile of the hops some?

It changes it MASSIVELY. You will never get the correct IBUs unless you really up the hop quantity and there are a few reasons for this.

Hops require sugars in solution to isomerize correctly. Without the sugars they will isomerize but you will not get as much as you could.

The second issue is the volume. Unless you are compensating and adding in more hops you have a weaker "Prehopped water" than you think and then you add that to the boil.

Example (not based on actual numbers):

5 gallon batch
Target 50 IBUs

version 1- Full boil, no top up water, in proper wort = .25 oz @ 90 min

Version 2- Partial boil, 2 gallons of top up water = .60 oz @ 90 min

Version 3- Warrior preboiled into 1 gallon of water added @ 90 minutes to a full volume boil = 1oz

Version 4- Warrior pre boiled into 1 gallon of water added @ 90 minutes to a partial volume boil with 2 gallons top water = 1.5 oz

In what way does freezing it save time when you have to boil the frozen prehopped water? Also, how much hops do you want to strain out?

I am not saying this wont work, it is just extremely inefficient.

 

[rmb]

It changes it MASSIVELY. You will never get the correct IBUs unless you really up the hop quantity and there are a few reasons for this.

Hops require sugars in solution to isomerize correctly. Without the sugars they will isomerize but you will not get as much as you could.

The second issue is the volume. Unless you are compensating and adding in more hops you have a weaker "Prehopped water" than you think and then you add that to the boil.

Example (not based on actual numbers):

5 gallon batch
Target 50 IBUs

version 1- Full boil, no top up water, in proper wort = .25 oz @ 90 min

Version 2- Partial boil, 2 gallons of top up water = .60 oz @ 90 min

Version 3- Warrior preboiled into 1 gallon of water added @ 90 minutes to a full volume boil = 1oz

Version 4- Warrior pre boiled into 1 gallon of water added @ 90 minutes to a partial volume boil with 2 gallons top water = 1.5 oz

In what way does freezing it save time when you have to boil the frozen prehopped water? Also, how much hops do you want to strain out?

I am not saying this wont work, it is just extremely inefficient.

For All Grain sure... I agree... but for extract... the malt has already been through its phases... so I like being able to get the LME to a boil, add the hop soup, then soon after hit flameout.

For extract it saves me time the next few times I brew. I like saving time and gas on my grill... Im a casual brewer at best.

 

[rmb]

FYI... 33 lbs of LME is 59.99 at my LHBS. So I am making batches from 12-25 dollars per 5 gallons. AG doesn't warrant much of a cost savings for me.

 

[Zamial]

For All Grain sure... I agree... but for extract... the malt has already been through its phases...

What I was trying to explain has absolutely nothing to do with mashing or phases, AG or extract. I was specifically referring to hop utilization during the boil, which is identical for AG and extract. There is no way you are saving hops or making less work to hit your IBU target. Without a shadow of a doubt your beers have a much lower IBU than you think they do.

so I like being able to get the LME to a boil, add the hop soup, then soon after hit flameout.

I am not trying to snuff this technique, I am trying to get you to see how hops work when they are boiled. At the end of the day if you like the way your beer comes out that is all that matters.

 

[rmb]

Thanks... I will do a taste test between the 2 methods.

 

[rmb]

The LME doesnt need to be boiled for 90 mins.

Think of the hops as hop extract... but home made.

 

[orangehero]

Where have you read that alpha acids require sugar in solution to isomerize? As I understand it the process requires only heat, and in fact proceeds to a higher extent in lower gravity worts and at higher pH's.

The process of creating iso-alpha-acid extracts is more complex than just boiling hops in water and I don't know that there is a way to accurately predict the bittering results of such a simple boil method.

 

[Zamial]

The LME doesnt need to be boiled for 90 mins.

I fully get that.The sweet spot for bittering additions in a boil is 60-90 minutes. You can boil the hops longer but after 90 minutes you have really gotten about all you can from them.

Think of the hops as hop extract... but home made.

I understand what you are doing.

Where have you read that alpha acids require sugar in solution to isomerize? As I understand it the process requires only heat, and in fact proceeds to a higher extent in lower gravity worts and at higher pH's.

They do not require sugars, the sugars assist in the extraction. I also agree that there is a sweet spot where you get to much sugar in the wort and it slows down the process. No sugars vs. some sugars is a BIG difference. We are talking about no sugars the way I am understanding how the OP is doing this.

The process of creating iso-alpha-acid extracts is more complex than just boiling hops in water and I don't know that there is a way to accurately predict the bittering results of such a simple boil method.

I fully agree. The way I gather the OP is making beer is preboiling hops in water, straining the hops out and freezing the water. Doing short boils with LME and adding the stored frozen hop water into the boil. I believe there is some extraction but nowhere near a projected amount of IBUs. The IBUs would be much lower unless more hops are used to compensate.

IMO if the OP was boiling hops in a simple wort of 1.030-ish OG the prediction of IBUs would be much more accurate.

None of my comments have anything to do with AG or extract or if one is better. The OP seems to believe that since I added up longer boil times that this is referring to AG brewing and it is not.

 

[rmb]

Okay... I can agree about the sugar if the studies have been done... so, as I recall, reading this site I got this idea and now that I remember correctly, they recommended to add some LME/DME to the hop soup... that way you get the wort sugar... and boil for the desired amount of time to get IBUs.

From talking with you guys it does make sense that the IBUs wont be exact and perhpas the isomerized attributes with a full pot of wort will be different.

But for a casual brewer... by how much?

And I agree that it may not be a timer saver for everyone.

But for me it is... because in order for me to even start a batch I got to do all thee pre sanitizing prep work... and then spend time cooling it down... I need all the minutes I can spare.

 

[Cerevisaphile]

It would probably be easier yet to just use hop extract
http://morebeer.com/products/isohop-bitterness-extract-1-oz.html

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

If you're just going for IBUs how about using pre-isomerized hop extract? hoptech appears to stock it in a 2 oz (59 ml bottle). I shamelessly cribbed the usage equation from morebeer (and then cleaned it up to make it more homebrewer friendly)

B * V * 0.01375661373667 = I

B = IBU
V = Volume in gallons
I = milliliters of pre-isomerized extract to add in.

So for 30 IBUs in a 5 gallon batch

30 * 5 * .01375661373667 = 2.06 ml

 

[dryboroughbrewing]

and someone beat me to the punch.

 

[Denny]

The LME doesnt need to be boiled for 90 mins.

Think of the hops as hop extract... but home made.

No, it's nothing like real hop extract.