Hopping Profiles: %AA's to bittering, % AA's to flavor, and %AA's to aroma by beer style?

[Silver_Is_Money]

Are there any resources with guidelines as to not only how many IBU's are typically called for in a particular style of beer, or as to the styles typical BU:GU (or Relative Bitterness) ratio, but far more specifically as to the percentage of the hop Alpha Acids which each particular style of beer should allocate toward bittering, flavoring, and aroma?

I've seen charts which essentially indicate something along these lines:

1) Hops added at 45 minutes remaining or earlier in the boil go nearly 100% to bittering
2) Hops added at 30 minutes remaining in the boil go 50% to bittering and 50% to flavoring
3) Hops added at 20 minutes remaining go nearly 100% to flavoring
4) Hops added at 15 minutes remaining go 50% to flavoring and 50% to aroma
4) Hops added at 10 minutes or less remaining go nearly 100% to aroma

But the essence of my question is: For a given style what percentage of hop AA's should be allocated to bittering, flavoring, and aroma?

 

[parjay]

NM, I'm an idiot.

 

[ebbelwoi]

I'd love to see something like that.

 

[Homergah]

Designing Great Beers by Ray Daniels is a good place to look.

 

[balrog]

I'm confused by the question. I thought alpha acids added bitterness only. The other oils added flavor/aroma; the farnasene, humulene, etc.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I'm confused by the question. I thought alpha acids added bitterness only. The other oils added flavor/aroma; the farnasene, humulene, etc.

They are all going for the same ride. And the only analytical constituent generally mentioned on a package of hops is AA%.

 

[kh54s10]

Bitterness is described for all styles. I just use the slider in Beersmith and keep it in the middle portion. Sometimes I keep it to the low end and sometimes to the higher end.

Flavor and aroma is totally dependent on the brewer/consumer. For instance and APA by one craft brewery might be pretty low on hop flavor and aroma and another brewer might make one with tons of flavor and/or aroma. Yet both are American Pale Ales.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Gonna vary widely on too many factors for a style guide to account for it.

My preference, I never hop in the 60-20 range, period. If I'm gonna have wort sitting hot during whirlpool and knockout (read, not an immersion or recircing chiller of some form), i don't even hop between 20-flameout, it's all flameout/whirlpool, and sometimes multiple points in the whirlpool, though if i am able to chill it all quickly, I will sometimes do 20, 15, 10, or 5 min additions. 30 min additions in my opinion are a waste of hop. Move later and get more character, or use a lot less and add at 60 or 90 to bitter.

Now the important part, anything late hop (20 mins through whirlpool, hopstand, dry hopping), I use strictly weight to volume ratio- oz/gal, lb/bbl, etc. The alpha doesn't factor into the amount used AT ALL.

Where the alpha DOES factor, I plug it all in to BeerSmith, and using the late hop alphas, adjust my bittering addition to dial it to where I want.

Some folks like to assign AAUs (alpha*weight) as part of a recipe. Xyz AAUs at 60, 20, 5, 0. That way, when the alphas of your hops change, divide out of the AAUs to get your new weight.

This way the recipe automatically accounts for changing alpha acids and the calculation is super easy.

However, as indicated above, flavor and aroma are a result of other compounds in the hops, and that approach leads to flavor/aroma inconsistency in my opinion/experience.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Also, real tough to get access to from LHBS hops as sold instore, but hop supplier lot information generally has a lot more of that info.

If buying hops in 11-44lb quantities isn't practical for you, your LHBS might be, and could probably get that information for you.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

The easiest thing of course is to restrict flavoring additions to hop varieties conducive to flavoring, and aroma additions to hop varieties conducive to aroma. But this fails to answer the question as to how much hop flavoring and how much hop aroma is required (within a limited range) to suit a given style of beer?

 

[kh54s10]

I've never seen a distinction made between flavor and aroma hops. Only bittering, aroma and dual purpose. Dual purpose would be either bittering or aroma. All hops will give flavor. Noted that some will give better of one than the others, as in a particular hop may give more aroma than flavor and another may give more flavor than aroma. But I have never seen a listing that spells that out.

 

[FunkedOut]

I searched for a guide such as this and found none.
After findings similar to your findings, I settled on a 60, 20, 2 schedule. Sometimes a small dry hop. I find nothing gives aroma like dry hopping.
I arrive at a target IBU for a given recipe using the BU:GU ratio, and then shift the IBU's around those 3 additions.
Depending on style, I may have 66%, 33%, 0% (porter).
Or for a blonde ale or lager, 50%, 40%, 10%.
Brew and tweak.

I stopped the first wort hopping, because it's not as predictable. The time from first wort to boiling can vary.
I found keeping to a 60, 20, 2 schedule is easier to appreciate the difference from brew to brew. Maybe after I get more time on this model, I will start shifting the times a bit.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

I've never seen a distinction made between flavor and aroma hops.

It may be the phrases have their roots in "The Complete Joy of Homebrewing, 4e". At ebook location 1435, there is a section titled "Hop Flavor and Aroma: 'Finishing' with Finishing Hops": finishing hops": "The process of adding hops for flavor and aroma is called finishing; the hops used are called finishing, flavor, or aroma hops" (italics carried forward from the book, eBook location is 1435). There appear to be various places in the book where "flavor hops" are added 15-20 minutes before the end of the boil and "aroma hops" are added 0-5 minutes before the end of the boil.

 

[RPh_Guy]

the question as to how much hop flavoring and how much hop aroma is required (within a limited range) to suit a given style of beer?

I think this is easy to figure out just by looking at a few recipes for a given style.
Of course it varies but you can get a good idea.
For example if you look at hefeweizen recipes you'll almost never see flavor/aroma hops. In a Belgian tripel it's most common to use 1-2oz/5 gal of [noble] flavor/aroma hops. Etc.

I do this every time I make a recipe, and I try to tune it to my own taste.

Hitting IBU is pretty straightforward by simply adjusting the early bittering addition after you've decided on your flavor/aroma amounts.

 

[ScrewyBrewer]

The easiest thing of course is to restrict flavoring additions to hop varieties conducive to flavoring, and aroma additions to hop varieties conducive to aroma. But this fails to answer the question as to how much hop flavoring and how much hop aroma is required (within a limited range) to suit a given style of beer?

Great question and one open to interpretation by the brewer. The BJCP Guidelines for the style are a great resource when trying to read between the lines. They provide brewers with an IBU range of minimum and maximum values for most styles. Those IBUs can be split between bitter, and/or flavor, and/or aroma hop additions. Where dry or whirlpool hop additions contribute fewer IBUs than flavor and/or bittering additions.

Basically targeting the IBUs in between the minimum and maximum IBUs for the style is a safe bet. It's up to whoever is brewing to use those IBUs for bittering, flavor, and aroma. Then further refining the IBU allocations to bittering, flavor and aroma additions to taste.

 

[kh54s10]

For most styles I have been shifting toward the ends. I do a 60 minute bittering charge. Then the flavor and aroma charge will be 15 minutes or less. Sometimes at 5 minutes. Then depending on how much flavor and or aroma I will do a flame out and/or whirlpool and if I want more aroma a dry hop. The most hops I have ever used was about 7 ounces. I think someday I will make a hop bomb and go crazy.

 

[kh54s10]

The easiest thing of course is to restrict flavoring additions to hop varieties conducive to flavoring, and aroma additions to hop varieties conducive to aroma. But this fails to answer the question as to how much hop flavoring and how much hop aroma is required (within a limited range) to suit a given style of beer?

Have you got a link or guide to which hops are conducive to favoring and which are conducive to aroma. I have never seen one, and IMO, all hops will add flavor and aroma. I concede that some add more to flavor and others will add more to aroma, but all will do both. As well as bittering. You can use any hop for bittering, you might not want to use some for that purpose, either because it will create a strange flavor, or that you will need to use a ton of low AA hops for some beers.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

Have you got a link or guide to which hops are conducive to favoring and which are conducive to aroma. I have never seen one, and IMO, all hops will add flavor and aroma. I concede that some add more to flavor and others will add more to aroma, but all will do both. As well as bittering. You can use any hop for bittering, you might not want to use some for that purpose, either because it will create a strange flavor, or that you will need to use a ton of low AA hops for some beers.

This site is about as good as any:
http://www.ciltech.com/muggsy/Comparing and Selecting Hops & Grains.htm

But I really like the 'Hop-O-Meter' visuals as seen at this site (and I wish it was being actively updated):
http://www.brew365.com/

 

[MildAvers]

Recipes are usually made to certain styles and as such each recipe should specify the amount of AA's and IBU's called for at a certain time.

1 oz of 5.2AA Saaz @ 60 minutes for 30 IBUs
1 oz of 4.7AA Willamette @ 20 minutes for 10 IBUs
etc...

The BJCP style guide doesn't break down the range of IBU's for each style into "bittering", "flavor" and "aroma". (ex. 30-50IBU - 50% bittering, 45% flavor, 5% aroma).

The problem may be the standardization of definitions of the times of each "bittering", "flavor" and "aroma" and the classification of "whirlpool", "first wort", etc.. into one or more of those three categories.

So the best possible solution is to ensure the recipe contains the intent of the author.

 

[Qhrumphf]

I mean if you're looking for some sort of robotic recipe thing, feed all the NHC medal winning recipes from Zymurgy into one of those AI neural net computer things and let it write your recipes.

 

[BrewnWKopperKat]

But I really like the 'Hop-O-Meter' visuals as seen at this site (and I wish it was being actively updated):
http://www.brew365.com/

https://www.hopsteiner.com/variety-data-sheets/ ?

For each hop (example: https://www.hopsteiner.com/variety-data-sheets/Centennial/), there is a 'radar chart' that's in the spirit of the 'Hop-O-Meter' bar chart.

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

https://www.hopsteiner.com/variety-data-sheets/ ?

For each hop (example: https://www.hopsteiner.com/variety-data-sheets/Centennial/), there is a 'radar chart' that's in the spirit of the 'Hop-O-Meter' bar chart.

Very nice! Thanks!!!

 

[balrog]

I also ref (text not graphs unfortunately) the following when trying to sub or figure out flavor:
@BrewnWKopperKat 's hopsteiner ref
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2011/12/bear-flavoreds-ultimate-guide-to-hop.html
http://beerlegends.com/centennial-hops
http://www.brewerwall.com/hops/9

 

[Silver_Is_Money]

I also ref (text not graphs unfortunately) the following when trying to sub or figure out flavor:
@BrewnWKopperKat 's hopsteiner ref
http://www.bear-flavored.com/2011/12/bear-flavoreds-ultimate-guide-to-hop.html
http://beerlegends.com/centennial-hops
http://www.brewerwall.com/hops/9

Thanks! BeerLegends has some great info on hops!!!

 

[Northern_Brewer]

Gonna vary widely on too many factors for a style guide to account for it.

My preference, I never hop in the 60-20 range, period.
This way the recipe automatically accounts for changing alpha acids and the calculation is super easy.

However, as indicated above, flavor and aroma are a result of other compounds in the hops, and that approach leads to flavor/aroma inconsistency in my opinion/experience.

+1 to all that.

Are there any resources with guidelines as to not only how many IBU's are typically called for in a particular style of beer, or as to the styles typical BU:GU (or Relative Bitterness) ratio, but far more specifically as to the percentage of the hop Alpha Acids which each particular style of beer should allocate toward bittering, flavoring, and aroma?...

But the essence of my question is: For a given style what percentage of hop AA's should be allocated to bittering, flavoring, and aroma?

It just doesn't really work like that. The whole concept of "styles" is rather alien to European brewing, which is why you get prominent beers that don't actually fit the style they're thought to belong to - Guiness is too weak to be called a stout, and Zum Uerige is too bitter to be an alt, but for many people they are the definitive examples of those styles. Or for instance, to take some examples at random from Ron Pattinson, compare two milk stouts from the mid-20th century might have 100% hops at 120 minutes or the biggest single addition at 20 minutes. Heck, never mind within a style, it can vary enormously for the same beer - compare Adnams Tally Ho with equal amounts of hops at 120, 60 and 30 minutes, with the same beer 23 years later where the biggest addition is a dry hop.

So either you end up setting boundaries that are so wide as to be almost meaningless, or you just end up herding cats. The Ray Daniels book is useful, and is kinda the human equivalent of "feed all the NHC medal winning recipes from Zymurgy into one of those AI neural net computer things", but is limited by the source data, which is from US homebrewers at the NHC in the 1990s. That may be reasonably accurate for US styles, but may not be terribly accurate for European styles.

 

[Qhrumphf]

Ultimately, if you want to get "to style", use Daniels to learn the core recipe design process, less of the style part at the end.

Then between guideline description, or better yet good examples of the actual style, and come up with it your damned self.

The problem with using NHC winners, Jamil Zainasheff/BCS, or Daniels, or even the BJCP, when it comes to non-American styles, is you're seeing through an American tinted lens.

Following a Pattinson recipe for Mild or Bitter gets you far closer to an authentic one than BCS/Jamil. But because Jamil's recipes overwhelming are judged by American judges in the American echo chamber, they win, are perpetuated, and keep echoing.