Hopping an IIPA

[osagedr]

Made a late decision to brew an IIPA on Saturday. I don't know a whole lot about the style but am using pale malt, MO, crystal 77, a few pounds of dextrose and a touch of honey malt to hit around 1.090 OG.

I mostly brew lagers with noble hops and haven't used many American hop varieties. I have the following in inventory (all in leaf form except the Cascade which are whole hops) 2 oz Simcoe (14.1 AA), 2 oz Crystal (3.4 AA), 2 oz Centennial (10.5 AA), 2 oz Cluster (8.7 AA), 2 oz Ahtanum (4.0 AA), 2 oz Soriachi Ace (14.1 AA), 2 oz Amarillo (10.4 AA), 2 oz Cascade (6.0 AA).

What would you suggest as a hop schedule? I'd like to end up with 100-120 IBUs and am thinking two weeks of dry hopping. I'm thinking the high AA hops at 60 minutes then numerous additions in the last 15 minutes (but I have nothing against additions at any time during the boil).

Appreciate whatever advice anyone can give!

 

[SilverZero]

You've got a lot of good hops, but not enough of any one variety to do what I would bet you get suggestions for: Simcoe + Amarillo. If I had your inventory, I'd do 1oz Simcoe at FWH, another oz at 15 mins + 1oz Cascade or Centennial, 1oz of Cascade or Centennial at 1 min, another oz of either at flameout, and then 2oz of Amarillo for the last 7-10 days of primary right before you bottle.

 

[osagedr]

Thanks for the advice.

In order to get the IBUs up close to 120 which is what I was hoping for, I ended up using everything but the Crystal and Sorachi ace, and was able to get my hands on some Zythos and Challenger as well. Which leads me to my next couple of questions:

(1) is there a chance that using too many different hops will result in me ending up with a big gross hodgepodge of indistinguishable hoppiness? In other words, is there such a thing as too many different types of hops in this beer, and if so, which ones should I omit?

(2) my LHBS doesn't have and won't be getting any Simcoe or Amarillo, but I could certainly order them in time to use them for dry hopping. Are they important enough hops (I would order enough to use in future IPAs; I'm likely to do a regular-strength American IPA soon) that I should order them for this and subsequent batches, or should I just "make do" with Cascade, Centennial, Challenger, and Zythos?

 

[dcp27]

1) yes, you can get a muddled hop flavor when using too many. however, aside from the cluster, everything you were gunna use is citrusy, so it shouldnt be an issue. I'd set up you're desired late hops first, then see where you can get with the IBUs. your late additions are much more important than the IBUs. I'd go with cluster & challenger to bitter, then some combo of simcoe, cascade, centennial, amarillo, and/or zythos late. I'd go with 3-4 of them, simcoe/centennial/amarillo being the most famous (Pliney)

2) they're nice to have, but you can definitely more than make do with the C's and zythos.

 

[atom]

(1) is there a chance that using too many different hops will result in me ending up with a big gross hodgepodge of indistinguishable hoppiness? In other words, is there such a thing as too many different types of hops in this beer, and if so, which ones should I omit?

have you had mikkeller 19?
http://beerstreetjournal.com/mikkeller-19/

 

[osagedr]

1) yes, you can get a muddled hop flavor when using too many. however, aside from the cluster, everything you were gunna use is citrusy, so it shouldnt be an issue. I'd set up you're desired late hops first, then see where you can get with the IBUs. your late additions are much more important than the IBUs. I'd go with cluster & challenger to bitter, then some combo of simcoe, cascade, centennial, amarillo, and/or zythos late. I'd go with 3-4 of them, simcoe/centennial/amarillo being the most famous (Pliney)

2) they're nice to have, but you can definitely more than make do with the C's and zythos.

Thanks a bunch; that's a big help!

 

[osagedr]

have you had mikkeller 19?
http://beerstreetjournal.com/mikkeller-19/

Never had it but I'll be on the lookout.

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks for the advice.

In order to get the IBUs up close to 120 which is what I was hoping for, I ended up using everything but the Crystal and Sorachi ace, and was able to get my hands on some Zythos and Challenger as well. Which leads me to my next couple of questions:

(1) is there a chance that using too many different hops will result in me ending up with a big gross hodgepodge of indistinguishable hoppiness? In other words, is there such a thing as too many different types of hops in this beer, and if so, which ones should I omit?

(2) my LHBS doesn't have and won't be getting any Simcoe or Amarillo, but I could certainly order them in time to use them for dry hopping. Are they important enough hops (I would order enough to use in future IPAs; I'm likely to do a regular-strength American IPA soon) that I should order them for this and subsequent batches, or should I just "make do" with Cascade, Centennial, Challenger, and Zythos?

Be careful if you are using Sorachi as a bittering hop. Very, very pungent and really better as an aroma hope.

Blending hops is (to me at least) one of the best parts of brewing. Just make sure you use bittering hops for bitterng and aroma or dual hops for aroma and you will be fine.

Amarillo and Simcoe are IMHO probably the 2 best hops to,use for DHing so if can get ahold of them definitely add them - I take that back - send them to me because they will absolutely ruin your IIPA...

 

[osagedr]

Be careful if you are using Sorachi as a buttering hop. Very, very pungent and really better as an aroma hope.

Blending hops is (to me at least) one of the best parts of brewing. Just make sure you use buttering hops for bitterng and aroma or dual hops for aroma and you will be fine.

Amarillo and Simcoe are IMHO probably the 2 best hops to,use for DHing so if can get ahold of them definitely add them - I take that back - send them to me because they will absolutely ruin your IIPA...

Thanks. I was able to get some Columbus (not Challenger as I said above) and Zythos so took out the Sorachi and Cluster.

What I am chewing on now is trying to get the late hop additions correct. 5 min? 1 min? Flameout? I'm trying to figure out what should go where, and when.

 

[Montanaandy]

Thanks. I was able to get some Columbus (not Challenger as I said above) and Zythos so took out the Sorachi and Cluster.

What I am chewing on now is trying to get the late hop additions correct. 5 min? 1 min? Flameout? I'm trying to figure out what should go where, and when.

Late hop additions @ 5-1-0 are fine and will give you great aroma.

 

[osagedr]

Late hop additions @ 5-1-0 are fine and will give you great aroma.

Fantastic! My understanding is that I should let the hops steep for five minutes after flameout before removing them and chilling. That sound about right?

Thanks again!

 

[Montanaandy]

Fantastic! My understanding is that I should let the hops steep for five minutes after flameout before removing them and chilling. That sound about right?

Thanks again!

Five minutes is fine. Some go 20-30 minutes at flameout before chilling. Really a matter of preference.

How are things in the Peg? One of my favorite places (except for the speeding ticket I got heading back to MT

 

[osagedr]

Just did the flameout additions. Here's what we ended up with:

1 oz columbus pellets on schedule at FWH.
2 oz of Columbus at 42 minutes.
1 oz of Simcoe; 1 oz of Amarillo 10 minutes.
2 oz Ahtenum 5 minutes.
1 oz Centennial; 1 oz Zythos 1 minute.
2 oz Cascade 0 minutes.

Also brewed a Scottish export today. Busy brew day!

Things in the Peg are good. Pretty easy winter this year which makes it easier to take. Next time you're up here Andy we'll get together to tip a few back.

 

[Montanaandy]

Just did the flameout additions. Here's what we ended up with:

1 oz columbus pellets on schedule at FWH.
2 oz of Columbus at 42 minutes.
1 oz of Simcoe; 1 oz of Amarillo 10 minutes.
2 oz Ahtenum 5 minutes.
1 oz Centennial; 1 oz Zythos 1 minute.
2 oz Cascade 0 minutes.

Also brewed a Scottish export today. Busy brew day!

Things in the Peg are good. Pretty easy winter this year which makes it easier to take. Next time you're up here Andy we'll get together to tip a few back.

Looks good. Nice mix of hops that should produce a really nice beer.

I will give you a hollar the next time that I am up in the Peg. Likewise, if you are ever in my neck of the woods (Billings, MT) let me know and we can have some beers.

 

[dcp27]

looks like a nice schedule, did you save anything for the eventual dry hop?

 

[osagedr]

looks like a nice schedule, did you save anything for the eventual dry hop?

Saved an ounce each of Simcoe, Amarillo, Zythos and Columbus for dry hopping.

Only hiccup was that with the crazy hop schedule and brewing two batches, I forgot to add the dextrose late in the boil. Happily, I remember reading somewhere that it's better to add it at high krausen anyway, which I'm thinking will be on Monday.

 

[dcp27]

Saved an ounce each of Simcoe, Amarillo, Zythos and Columbus for dry hopping.

sounds awesome.

yup, adding at high krausen works. sometimes it helps get slightly more attenuation that way. look forward to hearing how this comes out

 

[osagedr]

Okay...how obnoxiously hoppy do I allow this beer to become? I don't know much about the style but thought it tasted fantastic even in the kettle; even better as fermentation progressed. Ended up doing the dextrose addition once fermentation had really slowed as opposed to at high krausen. OG 1.084 FG 1.010 for 9.69% ABV.

So now it's been dry hopping for 4 days with an ounce each of Cascade, Simcoe, Amarillo, Zythos and Columbus. At what point is enough, enough? Again, since I don't know much about the style it's hard for me to judge for myself. Right now it's (obviously) super hoppy but still feels nicely balanced by the malt backbone. I think my IBUs pre-dry-hopping were in the 140's.

Am I supposed to wait for this to be undrinkable before taking the hops out?

 

[dcp27]

Am I supposed to wait for this to be undrinkable before taking the hops out?

nope, 5-10 day dry hop is the norm. after a point it doesnt really add much more. sounds like its coming along quite well

since you're not too familiar with the style, do you plan on getting yourself some to have something to compare it to?

 

[sweetcell]

leaving hops in for too long can result in a grassy taste. upper limit seems to be around 7 days, i'd be afraid that 10 might be too much. most of the aroma and flavor is pulled in out the first 2-3 days anyways.

 

[dcp27]

7 days is definitely not the upper limit. the usual quoted amount is 2 weeks, but i've never experienced grassiness from too long of a dry hop (done 4 weeks, tasted 6 weeks). IME, its more of one of those old myths than reality.

 

[osagedr]

nope, 5-10 day dry hop is the norm. after a point it doesnt really add much more. sounds like its coming along quite well

since you're not too familiar with the style, do you plan on getting yourself some to have something to compare it to?

Yes, I tried a number of IPAs and IIPAs (of course I've had them now and then) to get a sense of what this "should" be like. I ended up pulling the dry hops out after 5 days. The beer seems quite hoppy but still well balanced. I'll be entering it in a competition to held April 14-16 so we'll see what the judges say.

 

[Holter]

Osagedr

I know this beer is already finished and it seems to have turned out well, so advice is probably not needed right now but i am a homebrewer so of course i have an opinion. I love IIPA's, brewing a perfect IIPA has become a mission of mine. I personally think your final hop bill looks fantastic. I do have some input on your malt structure (even though this thread was focused on the hop bill). I am concerned about your use of Honey Malt and Crystal 77. For me, i love Crystal 77 and Honey Malt, but i have had a difficult time adding those malts without offsetting the flavor from what I wanted a IIPA to be. You didn't mention your grain bill %'s from what I saw, so my advice may be off, but i would be careful of adding too much of either the crystal or the honey malt to this beer. One of the key aspects of a IIPA is that the hopping is out of control, but it often doesn't taste out of control because there is enough alcohol in it that the beer tastes relatively balanced. My first IIPA had both crystal 10 and Honey Malt and the beer just wasn't a good clean IIPA. It tasted a bit too thick/sweet and wasn't nearly as dry/clean as it should have been. I would be cautious about adding more than 1% of either of those grains. I probably wouldnt go above .8%.

Also, I saw your concern about adding more hops to his recipe. My current recipe is 192.5 IBU's per the software. I just kept adding more and more hops to my beers to get the bitterness up to where i wanted it to be and finally last week when i tasted it against my favorite commercial examples I finally felt like i had achieved the level of bitterness that I have been going for.

Anyway, thats my .02.

 

[osagedr]

Thanks Holter, I appreciate hearing your thoughts on this. I didn't end up putting any honey malt or MO in this beer; just two-row and a bit of crystal 77. I thought the beer was tremendously well-balanced before adding the dry hops which probably meant it wasn't hoppy enough. Five days on five ounces of dry hops boosted the hop flavour and aroma quite a bit so hopefully it's close for style at this point. It's way too hoppy for me!

 

[osagedr]

Got the first-round NHC scoresheets for this beer (33 by one judge; 35 by the other). Recall I used a pound of hops overall including 5 ounces of dry hops.

Judge 1, on aroma: "Aroma, while interesting, isn't 'prominent to intense' hop. It is character-appropriate, but not strength."

Overall Impression: "Nice flavour but missing the intense hop character--use way more aroma hops."

Judge 2 (certified), on aroma: "Moderate citrus America hop aroma. A bit low for style. Aim for intense! Very nice aroma what is there though. Very faint diacetyl in aroma also but mostly hidden by hops." [yeast was 1728]

Overall Impression: "Great DIPA. Could use more hops in the nose & flavor. But very well brewed."

More hops? MORE HOPS?! I'll show you more hops! Just wait 'til next year.

Seriously, pretty happy with my first-ever IPA but really shocked (in an evil-grin-I-can't-wait-to-rebrew kinda way) at the comments on the hops.

Good thing I bought 11 pounds of hops the other day from hopdirect.com