Hop utilization ..... no boil & sous vide

[Owly055]

I'm doing two experiments today. First is a no boil no chill wheat beer using a Hefe yeast. It won't be a true Hefe, as it will be hopped with 3 American C hops, Cascade, Chinook, and Citra. In the past with no boil / no chill, I've resorted to a hop decoction as I call it, where a small portion of the wort is boiled in a sauce pan with the hops, and returned. If you are offended by my terminology as some seem to be, note the definition of the word at the bottom of this post......... and get a life.
In this case I'm doing what amounts to a whirlpool or hop stand, holding the wort at 170F for 15 minutes, then allowing it to slow cool in the fermenter. For this experiment I'm assuming a hop utilization of 4% loosely based on this article:
https://www.homebrewersassociation.org/how-to-brew/effect-post-boilwhirlpool-hop-additions-bitterness-beer/

The second portion of this experiment involves the "secondary" from my continuous fermenter. This fermenter contains 6 gallons of beer, and I remove 2 gallons periodically for "secondary", replacing it with 2 gallons of fresh wort. About 10 days in this case. This "secondary" really is not a fermentation stage, but primarily for dry hopping. I'm brewing pale ale only, and it varies in grain and hops, both going into the primary, and coming out into secondary where dry hopping contributes most of the character. Yeast is Kveik ( Sigmunds Voss ), which has a very high temp range of up to 100F without off flavors, and I'm doing it in a Fast Ferment. Wort goes in straight from the boil with no chill. The yeast ball is loosened first, and then pitched once the temp is in a reasonable range. The idea being that the high temp is to knock out "undesirables", as well as preventing introduction of undesirable microbes with the new wort. It seems to be working fine...... I'm on brew 18, and it seems to be fermenting "true".
I just drew 2 gallons and pitched dry hops (Mosaic and Nugget) last night. Today, I will use the sous vide, and raise it to 160F for 15 minutes, which should isomerize the hops somewhat, and of course kill the yeast. I'll slow cool, and then cold crash. This process is already underway as I write.

........................ H.W.

de·coc·tion
dəˈkäkSH(&#601n/
noun
noun: decoction; plural noun: decoctions

the liquor resulting from concentrating the essence of a substance by heating or boiling, especially a medicinal preparation made from a plant.
"a decoction of a root"
the action or process of extracting the essence of something.

Origin
late Middle English: from late Latin decoctio(n-), from decoquere ‘boil down’ (see decoct).

 

[applescrap]

I love the stuff you do. I am not sure i am following this process, ill reread it.

 

[Owly055]

The second portion of my experiment failed..... the sous vide (Annova) brought all the hops trub to the top, so I removed the Annova, taking quite a bit of the hops with it, as it coated both the inside and outside of the device. I then ladled two quart jars full of wort, capturing the hops from the surface, and added hops to make up for the losses using the WAG method (wild ass guess).
The jars went into a water bath with the sous vide.... 15 minutes at 160F. The result is that I won't have any valid results this week. I'll repeat the process on the next brew, going directly to the quart jars with my whirlpool hop addition about 24 hours before kegging....This will accomplish several things. One it will eliminate the "green" flavor from dry hopping, it will improve utilization, and it will capture volatile oils in the jars, all of which are good things in my book.

I've also decided to do the same thing with my wheat beer. It will go into the fermenter completely unhopped, depending entirely on the sous vide for hop flavor and aroma. Changing the experiments "mid stream".




H.W.

 

[popsicleian]

I've done a couple of no-boil, no-chill beers, and I just throw the hops in my grain bag for the duration of the mash. If you use enough, you can get plenty of bitterness and a lot of hop flavor. I did a 3.5 gallon batch of a 1.042 pale ale with 2oz of Simcoe pellets in the mash, and a 6 gallon batch of a 1.050 saison with 8 oz of homegrown frozen whole leaf cascade hops.

 

[Owly055]

I've done a couple of no-boil, no-chill beers, and I just throw the hops in my grain bag for the duration of the mash. If you use enough, you can get plenty of bitterness and a lot of hop flavor. I did a 3.5 gallon batch of a 1.042 pale ale with 2oz of Simcoe pellets in the mash, and a 6 gallon batch of a 1.050 saison with 8 oz of homegrown frozen whole leaf cascade hops.

That's great........ I'll try doing Cascade in the mash on my next no boil. I have a lot of Cascade leaf hops, and leaf hops are a pain to deal with.....

H.W.

 

[boasist]

That's great........ I'll try doing Cascade in the mash on my next no boil. I have a lot of Cascade leaf hops, and leaf hops are a pain to deal with.....

H.W.

Leaf hops would be ideal for a sous video setup it seems. I have as well, wrapped the bottom of the machine with cheese cloth or something similar if I'm going to be circulating. Although it's interesting as well that you could vacuum seal your wort and hops, then circulate that in your water. You could have several styles going at once as a matter of fact. Sounds interesting....

 

[fuzzy2133]

Didn't some one sous vide their breakfast in the mash recently?

 

[SanPancho]

so i have to ask, if you are not souring, and you are just dumping right into your continuous fermenter from the kettle, why does it matter whether or not you boiled?

obviously it will take longer to cool boiling wort to pitching temp, but it seems as if you are just making more work for yourself later in the process. if you boiled you'd be getting better sanitization of the fermenter and much better hop utilization per volume of beer. plus all the usual stuff about hot break, denaturing proteins, trub/haze/etc. etc.

so what's the benefit of no boil here? or the purpose? is there some specific benefit you're after?

 

[popsicleian]

so i have to ask, if you are not souring, and you are just dumping right into your continuous fermenter from the kettle, why does it matter whether or not you boiled?

obviously it will take longer to cool boiling wort to pitching temp, but it seems as if you are just making more work for yourself later in the process. if you boiled you'd be getting better sanitization of the fermenter and much better hop utilization per volume of beer. plus all the usual stuff about hot break, denaturing proteins, trub/haze/etc. etc.

so what's the benefit of no boil here? or the purpose? is there some specific benefit you're after?

I can't speak for others, but for me the potential benefit is time. I have a two year old, and it's really hard for me to set aside the large chunk of time to complete a traditional brew day. That's why I do almost exclusively no-chill--everything on the cold side (fermenter prep, yeast starter, oxygenation, pitching, etc.) can happen the next day, or even a few days later. I've been experimenting with the no-boil because it would make it a lot easier to brew on a weeknight. Results have been very mixed for me so far, and I'm not sure that I'll do it again, but for me it was worth trying.

 

[SanPancho]

ok. got it. i feel the pain. another time saver: if your tun is insulated well you can always mash in the morning and then let it ride until you get home. maybe add a mashout if you are worried about the body profile changing over 8-10 hours. then just boil and chill. or no chill as the case may be.

had a buddy that used to do this. beer was good. had no clue until he told me.

 

[Owly055]

ok. got it. i feel the pain. another time saver: if your tun is insulated well you can always mash in the morning and then let it ride until you get home. maybe add a mashout if you are worried about the body profile changing over 8-10 hours. then just boil and chill. or no chill as the case may be.

had a buddy that used to do this. beer was good. had no clue until he told me.

I do this a lot......... Leaving the mash while I work...... I only work afternoons (my choice as I'm self employed and semi retired). I also do overnight mashes, which allows me to do a boil very early in the morning when it's cool this time of year.

I apparently didn't make it clear that I do a full boil in my continuous fermenter, but I never boil longer than 30 minutes. Part of the reason is sterilization of the fermenter. most microbes are knocked out by the high temps... It'll reach 130F.

Like many things people make brewing more complicated than it needs to be. You can cut a lot of the crap out, and make brewing fun and easy.

H.W.

 

[SanPancho]

Like many things people make brewing more complicated than it needs to be. You can cut a lot of the crap out, and make brewing fun and easy.

H.W.

in that spirit of laziness i offer this time saver-

fill flask or qt mason jar with DME, cover with 1/2" hot water. stir it around. pop into microwave for minute or two until it boils. stir some more.

add enough ice cubes (distilled water in a sanitized cube tray) to hit pitching temp. top off to final volume with more distilled.

bam. 5min starter prep.

at this point i dont even bother with distilled. just plain old tap.

 

[Owly055]

in that spirit of laziness i offer this time saver-

fill flask or qt mason jar with DME, cover with 1/2" hot water. stir it around. pop into microwave for minute or two until it boils. stir some more.

add enough ice cubes (distilled water in a sanitized cube tray) to hit pitching temp. top off to final volume with more distilled.

bam. 5min starter prep.

at this point i dont even bother with distilled. just plain old tap.

That "spirit of laziness" is the foundation of most human progress. The constant pursuit of easier faster ways of doing things...... The microwave you are using is itself a perfect example of this..........

H.W.

 

[Ninoid]

I've done a couple of no-boil, no-chill beers, and I just throw the hops in my grain bag for the duration of the mash. If you use enough, you can get plenty of bitterness and a lot of hop flavor. I did a 3.5 gallon batch of a 1.042 pale ale with 2oz of Simcoe pellets in the mash, and a 6 gallon batch of a 1.050 saison with 8 oz of homegrown frozen whole leaf cascade hops.

Do you continue no boil / no chill brewing?
Do you try some other hopping methods, instead of mash hop?
I am no boil / no chill brewer and, for me, it is very god method, but I cannot achieve satisfying bitterness.